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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 05:45pm
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So I've been looking at plumbing codes and contractor discussions and ran into something. Is having hot water plumbed to your faucets REQUIRED?! I can't find an Oregon code stating that it is but saw a contractors discussion stating such. Sigh ...
I've been looking for a GOOD solution that meets all of my needs in case it is. As I've stated before, with cistern water that will come in quite cold in the winter time, I'm not thrilled with the max temperature rise that the less expensive/easy on-demand propane units manage. The good ones can use a lot of propane, and in my area, the only propane delivery service costs an arm and a leg. I can't wrangle 100 lb. tanks myself.
A tiny house site recommended 2 units -- one is prohibitively expensive. (Precision Temp RV 500)
The other is doable: The Girard RV on-demand. It installs in the wall and vents outside with controls inside. It has a winter system that runs on 12 volt as needed to warm the unit when temps dip below 38. Temperature rise is as much as 78 degrees. It doesn't require a lot of water pressure to operate. It apparently sips propane. In a forum, I read a family's experiences in Alaska with it and they go through a 20 lb. propane tank every 3-4 months using it for daily showers, dishes, and cleaning. That's awesome.
One thing I did find regarding water heaters in Oregon was seismic codes and strapping/securing. This would be magic for that because it screws to a wood frame in the wall so it would be secure. It would also be a quick disconnect from its gas and water sources.
Am I missing something? Could I install this in my cabin if I MUST have plumbed in hot water?
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 06:01pm
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Good question Julie. I don't see what they would require it. I bet its not required, There is other means to warm water up, ie a stove and a pot. Maybe bldg. insp will chime in, love to hear the answer to this too.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 06:32pm
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I hope it's not, toyota_mdt_tech. But if I could legally install this unit, I'd seriously consider it since it addresses all of the misgivings I had about the other on-demand options.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 06:55pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Hot water plumbing is required in residences. The plumbing code specifies that it must meet a certain minimum temperature, some inspectors actually carry thermometers, I don't. The three main things that distinguish a residence from other types of buildings, and are required, are washing, cooking, and interior heat. Hot water is part of the washing requirement.
But your question, whether it is required at a sink specifically, I don't know. But I can't imagine why someone would plumb a house without it.
On the subject of on- demand water heaters and propane use, any on demand water heater only uses as much as it needs to given how much hot water you use. The larger capacity units (200,000 btus) don't burn at 200,000 when only one shower or sink is being used. But you don't need one that big anyway. You are probably fine with a 75,000 btu.
The building department will allow you to instal any on-demand water heater that is a listed, approved unit, and you have to instal it according to the instructions. You are wise to be concerned about freezing.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 07:08pm
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IRC
Chapter 28, water heaters...
P2801.1 Required.
Each dwelling shall have an approved automatic water heater or other type of domestic water-heating system sufficient to supply hot water to plumbing fixtures and appliances intended for bathing, washing or culinary purposes. Storage tanks shall be constructed of noncorrosive metal or shall be lined with noncorrosive material.
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rockies
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 08:51pm
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I thought that pellet stove thing you'd decided on had a water-jacket. Doesn't that provide you with hot water for washing, dishes?
I've mentioned before in several threads the Empyre Elite 100 indoor wood fired boiler. It installs in a small out-building and has a water jacket to heat water for laundry, showers, etc, but also for radiant floor tubing (if you decide to have that). The nice thing is that you can even fire it up in summer for hot water and all the excess heat from the firebox won't heat up your cabin interior because it's not inside the cabin.
Or maybe you use solar hot water heating in the summer with evacuated tubes on the roof. Then you wouldn't even need to use the boiler at all during the summer.
When I looked around for an off grid system I thought the Empyre Elite was a perfect combination of space and water heating. It solves a lot of problems in one unit.
http://profab.org/product.php?id=1
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 09:54pm
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Thanks, bldginsp and MtnDon. Well, it's best to know now so I can factor it in. The Girard will work well and do what I need easily enough. Boy, it's hard not having a plumbing contractor on board yet to consult about all of this! I appreciate your help!
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 10:04pm
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rockies
Well, apparently I need a year-round system and since that's the case, I'm not going to cobble together a separate plumbed-in thing for the summer, too, when I'm not using the Wiseway stove. That wouldn't make sense. The Girard on-demand will do fine year-round, it vents easily, installs securely, and is great for off-grid. It's reasonably priced, too.
As I wrote in the other thread where you wrote of the Empyre Elite, it costs $7K. And that's just for the unit. Way out of my price range, especially to accomplish my simple needs.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 11:09pm
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Quoting: MtnDon P2801.1 Required. Each dwelling shall have an approved automatic water heater or other type of domestic water-heating system sufficient to supply hot water to plumbing fixtures and appliances intended for bathing, washing or culinary purposes.
The requirement is a heater sufficient to supply hot water, but there is no requirement to supply the water to specific fixtures, such as a sink. So you could instal a water heater hooked up to nothing and be compliant, strictly. I guess the assumption was that of course people will put hot water to their sinks, why would you instal one without? But they didn't anticipate our free thinking Julie who rethinks everything from the ground up (literally). Please try to get a video of the code officials look on his face when you tell him there will be no hot water to the sinks.
But, in the building code there is the requirement that a residence must have washing facilities, and they could interpret that to mean there must be hot water at all sinks and showers. They are thinking about whoever lives in the house next since it will out last you and me.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 11:47pm
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bldginsp
Do you know what the Oregon state motto is? "She flies with her own wings." Bwahahaha. My homeland. I am SO getting that tattooed somewhere when I get to the State of Jefferson. Maybe with a butterfly next to "wings." But I digress ...
Now, I have nothing against plumbing or hot water, per se. I have issues with mechanical things. They don't like me; I don't understand them. I was also attacked in the middle of the night about 15 years ago by a flexible supply line that sprung a leak somehow (it was this metal meshy material, I dunno), became dislodged and was waving itself around shooting water at me. 
So, being that I will be living on a mountain, 25 miles from a small city where people seem depressed about the status of their plumbing choices so I'm going to have my builder arrange to bring a plumber with him from Medford an hour and a half away, I'm aiming for simple, intuitive, affordable. 
As for the building inspector, I doubt he'd blink. Especially if he hangs around with the code enforcement officer, haha. When I was up there visiting with folks in October, I heard about how the code enforcement guy responded to a complaint regarding a gal living in a small cabin. (She doesn't have septic in.) So he walks over to a greywater pipe she has draining on the ground and asks her if she has a bucket. She brings him one and he sticks the pipe in it. He says, "Code prohibits a pipe from draining onto the ground. So when this bucket fills, water your plants with it." He smiles and walks away. LOL.
I think they just might appreciate free thinkers. I hope! At least I'm going through the process and making a big effort!
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KSalzwedel
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2016 11:33pm
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Julie, you are such fun! I would love to be a little mouse during your build.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 12:44am
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LOL. No, be an eagle! Be a bald eagle! They apparently live nearby. (There WILL be a rodent barrier and I have a terrier, besides!  )
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Just
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 02:05pm
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Julie2Oregon
uno some day a long long long [ not so long for me ] time from now ,somone is going to buy this cabin and they are going to want hot and cold running water . look at it like you are doing it for her .. "just" saying
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 02:09pm
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I just agree with Just.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 02:48pm
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And I agree with bldginsp. If you run a cold line you might as well run a hot line - not really any more complex. You don't have to use it - even turn off the supply to the heater. I suggested way back that it is much easier to run the lines now than wish you had in the future (for whatever reason).
Something else - and obviously take this for what it is worth - I don't know you but I read all your posts about the research you are doing and the stuff you are learning and I get a feeling that you could figure out the plumbing stuff pretty quickly - it is not that complex and you are not plumbing out a mansion. With the simplicity of PEX (no soldering - although I recommend crimping not the quick connect stuff), a good plumbing book and watching the plumber (maybe blackmail him with food or drink to explain what he is doing) - you'll be able to deal with anything that comes up in the future wrt to plumbing.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 02:56pm
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So I should base my decisions on what someone I don't know may or may not want in the future based on what may or may not be the intended use for the property after I'm dead?!
For all I know, Bly Mountain in the future could become a resort area with infrastructure and the new owners would tear down my little cabin to build a half-million mountain home. It's not so far-fetched, you know. For some reason, Oregon has become popular for relocation all of a sudden and southern Oregon is still affordable in places. The property is 2.5 acres but only one home is allowed on it unless there are special circumstances.
Don't fret. I'll be installing my Girard on-demand thing in the wall and will have hot water going to the faucets. But I'd never do it to please some hypothetical future property buyers. How many people out there want a 700 sq. ft. place? Most Americans turn up their noses at something that size for even a vacation spot! 
Nope, chances are my dear little cabin -- if it were even allowed to remain standing at all -- would be thoroughly unrecognizable once some typical ugly Americans got their meathooks on her.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 09:10pm - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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We didn't build our cabin with a thought to future resale. We built it for us and our lifestyle.
I shake my head at empty nesters that build huge retirement homes for the visits from children and potential future grandchildren. What a burden to those children to be expected to be there for every holiday and every special occasion.
I will be converting one of my three bedrooms at my city home into a extended master bathroom. I don't care about resale value when I'm gone. I've lived here thirty years. I will die here because the memories I have here are priceless.
Julie,when we had a problem hooking up our bathroom sink in the cabin we called our friend whom is the local unlicensed plumber. He does all the repairs on everybody's plumbing in our cabin area. What took three of us hours of trying to figure out took him five minutes to do. I'm pretty sure you will find plenty of people that dabble in home repair in your mountain area.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 11:12pm
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silverwaterlady
AMEN! That's as it should be! Build and live as it suits you, not with an eye as to what other people might want or will do. That doesn't make sense for either party, really.
Haha, I had a doctor's appointment today and on the TV in the waiting room was a show on HGTV with a couple looking for a vacation property on a lake in Alabama. OMG, their budget was $400,000! As a place to go on the occasional weekend with their 2 boys. HUGE place. Now, I'm fast-forwarding several years and thinking that it's highly unlikely those teen boys are going to want to hang out there on summer weekends with their parents. They're going to want to either stay at home and hang out with their friends OR they're going to want to throw weekend parties WITHOUT their parents at the lavish summer house, LOL. Meanwhile, the adults will be getting older and have full responsibility for the upkeep of that big house and the acreage.
It's a shame that more people aren't satisfied with simple things anymore. When I was a kid, going with a friend to their family's summer cabin meant a rustic summer cabin. No indoor plumbing, no electricity. It was cooking outside, oil lamps inside, outdoor lavatories, hiking, swimming in a river, fishing, etc. We LOVED IT! It truly was "getting away from it all."
My memories are tied up in simplicity and the joy we had growing up that way. I know times change, though, and I wouldn't force that on my son. He's had more than I ever did and he has to do and choose what makes him happy. Still, I emphasized to him that it's experiences that make life rich -- not STUFF. In a choice between buying him some latest gadgets or taking him on a budget trip to Europe so he could experience different things, I took him to Europe. And he's grown into a thoughtful, broad-minded, interesting young man who thinks for himself.
I do hope I can find help with the plumbing. On my last trip there, I met a young man who does construction and works for the volunteer fire department. I asked him if I could hire him for some projects and he said absolutely. I hope plumbing is something he knows a bit about!
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old greybeard
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# Posted: 22 Sep 2016 06:53am
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Water heaters and water lines, and inside toilets are just things that can spring leaks and break.
Kettle and pot on my 1930's happy Cookin stove, pour water from pot into my cut open Bud keg, add cool water, drop in 12v bilge pump and take shower. No issues.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2016 08:57am
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I'd have it all plumber for hot and cold, I'd use PEX and use the blue and red stuff. Install a low point drain just like an RV for cold weather when you may be away. If you dont want it, then leave it off, in fact, install a ball valve on the heaters outlet side, so you can isolate it. You can even install a ball valve on the inlet and even a bypass. Just be sure the unit is turned off before shutting off the water supply to it. But I would have the hot water plumbed and in place, used or not.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2016 09:51pm
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Quoting: old greybeard Water heaters and water lines, and inside toilets are just things that can spring leaks and break.Kettle and pot on my 1930's happy Cookin stove, pour water from pot into my cut open Bud keg, add cool water, drop in 12v bilge pump and take shower. No issues.
I lived in a tipi a while and out under the stars truck camping for several years. First cabin didn't have plumbing the first few years, second cabin not at first. Hauled water at first in current cabin. At this point, (also grey bearded), I love indoor plumbing and have no desire to go back.
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