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Durk
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2016 12:26pm
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My off grid framed cabin is under construction now. The water system will consist of a cistern for storing hauled water, a 12 volt Shurflo pump to pressurize the system, and a shower and 2 sinks. What type of water lines have others used or would recommend in this situation? Shurflo says to use flexible lines at least 24" to 36" on each side of the pump to reduce vibration. They told me that PEX tubing is not flexible enough to use right up to the pump, but it seems like RVs use PEX now. Should I use PEX or something else in the walls, then convert to flexible braided RV type water line near the pump, or could I use all RV flexible line in the walls, too? I just don't know how safe it would be to use the RV braided stuff in the walls. Is it easy to join together PEX and the traditional RV line? I plan to run all 1/2 inch.
Thanks in advance.
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tverga
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2016 04:23pm
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We had PEX in my cabin and it was a nightmare between leaking fittings. We also had an issue with the flexibility, pipe would belly between brackets and never drain properly. This caused the line to freeze and split, even though PEX is able to handle some freezing I think with age it becomes more brittle.
I replaced it with 1/2" copper and made sure it all angled towards the outside spigot (lowest point in system) for super easy draining. I also use a on demand hot water heater so I did not have a water tank to worry about.
All I do now is turn off the well, open all faucets and the shower, go outside and open the outside spigot. The entire system drains in about 2 minutes. 4 years and no freeze damage.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2016 04:54pm
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PEX works well as a supply line, hot or cold. Leaks are completely avoidable when proper well adjusted tools are used. We did our whole house w/o a single leak at any fittings.
Between the PEX and the Shurflo use a short flexible hose as found in the plumbing dept for connecting to faucets.
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beachman
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2016 05:40pm
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I used Whale tubing and fittings. Real easy and tight.
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Asher
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2016 09:03pm
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I was talking to a plumber about materials for our place, I was leaning toward PEX, but he recommended CPVC... He said he would always recommend copper first, but CPVC next. He said he didn't have anything against PEX, but after you factor in the expensive fittings for PEX, the CPVC system would be more cost effective and probably alittle more hardy... He recommended that the only thing he would splurge on would be getting CPVC brass threaded fittings at the end connection areas.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 10 Mar 2016 09:13pm
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CPVC may save some money over PEX if you need to buy a tool. However, PEX has an advantage, IMO, in that it is a continuous length from one point to the other, unless you need to turn some sharp corners with a 90 degree fitting. With planning you can have a continuous run from a source (manifold) to the point of use. No fittings except at each end. No leak potential anywhere in between. Unless you drive a nail through the line. 
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2016 05:54pm
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Great info! I'm doing much the same as Durk. I didn't realize that PEX could be buried until I started looking into some of these ideas. But it can!
I'm almost feeling confident that if I had dudes bury/install my cistern, I might actually be able to do the plumbing myself because it will be simple.
beachman, Home Depot carries fittings/PEX tubing called Sharkbite. Is that the same thing, basically, as what you used?
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beachman
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2016 08:32pm
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I have seen the Sharkbite and it is similar. The Whale products are a marine solution sold by West Marine (Paynes in Canada). Actually, the Sharkbite stuff looks a little more durable although to date, I have had no problems with the Whale items. There wasn't much around when we were planning the cottage water system so I leaned a lot on the marine applications. There is some great stuff on the market today.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2016 08:36pm
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I have the same system, stored water, two sinks and a shower, but before I comment I need to ask about your 'pressurized' system. My Shurflo 12 volt is a demand pump and I have no pressure, or expansion, tank on my system.
Is this what you are planning?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2016 08:51pm
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beachman
Thanks! There's a Home Depot in the closest city to my land so I use their website to get a look at products, prices, and such. There are other stores in the city, too, but at the very least I know I can find what I need at Home Depot there if push comes to shove! Helps a LOT with budgeting, too!
I often look at marine sites. They've got some neat products that would work for us off-grid landlubbers, too! 
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Durk
Member
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# Posted: 11 Mar 2016 11:09pm
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bobrok---yes, my system sounds like yours, no pressure tank, just a demand pump like a RV.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2016 05:08pm
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Durk,
Here's what I've done and it works well for me; perhaps not professional, but it is a seasonal camp after all.
First off, I don't recall reading that Shurflo does not recommend hard piping to the pump, but it makes sense to me, unless maybe you're installing a permanent setup. I did not. I do recollect, however, that they advise no bends within a foot or so of the pump.
I built my entire pump setup to be a quick disassemble since I am subject to freezing. I use 5/8" garden hose for the lines leading from my storage tanks to the pump and from my shed where the pump is located to the camp. The garden hose lays on the ground. I also use plastic hose connectors, Y-connections and shutoffs since they work well on a non-pressurized system and are cheaply replaceable if one freezes or splits. Hasn't been a problem for a half dozen years so far.
At the point where the garden hose from the camp enters the pump shed thru the floor (my storage tanks are in the shed as well) I convert to either rubber or steel jacketed washing machine hoses. This allows me to loop the hoses around without elbowing or kinking in the rather tight corner I've set aside for this whole assembly. I zip tie the assembly together and lay it on the floor with the pump in the middle. I've made short stub connectors to the pump itself, again using garden hose, to allow for reduction in diameter at the pump. Again, everything can be disassembled easily.
Once the outside garden hose line reaches the underside of the camp I convert to pex. I've never used pex before I plumbed my camp, but I love it! I'm a novice and I didn't have one leak. I used a combination of pex crimp fittings and shark bite fittings as warranted. Because of the tight quarters in my closet where the line comes in and also where I've installed the hot water heater I didn't use a manifold. Since there are only a few takeoffs and it's rare that more than one faucet is being used at any given time I opted for t-connectors as needed.
I also ran my pex tubing inside, along the wall at the ceiling to a) allow for interior heat to keep it from freezing if we get caught unexpectedly, and to b) allow for a gravity drain to empty the whole system.
Hope this helps.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 16 Mar 2016 09:09pm
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I have the Pex crimper tool, it looks like bolt cutters and the die allows me to do 3/8, 1/2 and 3/4" with nice pex crimp rings. Shark bite I would use for a repair, too expensive for install. I love Pex.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 16 Mar 2016 09:18pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: bobrok I don't recall reading that Shurflo does not recommend hard piping to the pump, but it makes sense to me, unless maybe you're installing a permanent setup.
I believe one of the prime reasons for this is that the pumps vibrate and if the piping was rigid that would transmit the vibrations down the line. Not to mention that flex hoses make it easier to disconnect and reconnect.
I agree that Sharkbite are great for repairs and small renovations, but a good crimper tool saves money when the fitting count goes up as in new work.
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Smawgunner
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# Posted: 17 Mar 2016 09:17pm - Edited by: Smawgunner
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Durk and Bobrok, I'd love to see some pics of your setup if you have them!
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 19 Mar 2016 09:12pm
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Quoting: Smawgunner Durk and Bobrok, I'd love to see some pics of your setup if you have them!
I can take pics when we open up in the spring if you can wait. I'm gone for the winter but I'll be happy to oblige when I get there.
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Durk
Member
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 10:55am
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My cabin is being built now, but I plan to use PEX lines and the Shuflo silencing kit either side of the pump. The kit has hoses that look like faucet supply lines but are a full 1/2 inch id. Supposedly they quiet the pump down substantially.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 11:57am
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I suspect my setup is similar to what you plan to do. Still a work in progress (what isn't) - I lug water from the lake up to a rain barrel by the cabin where I chlorinate it (will do rain water/lake pump maybe n the future). Most of my setup is under the "outside" kitchen (actually on the covered deck). garden hose to filter to 12v Shuflo pump (then PEX) with output split with one line going to a four way manifold and the other out through an eccotemp L5 water heater and back to another 4 way manifold. Currently I only have two faucets hooked - sink on the deck and an outdoor shower. Outside sink uses a Whale faucet with micro switches as does the shower faucet which has PEX inserted through an old hose and running underground for the 10' to the shower tent. This summer I may get around to hooking up the inside sink but no great rush. The use of the four-way manifolds allows four different pairs to be added - obviously not intending even two things to be running at the same time (at least I do not want to be in the shower when someone turns on another tap).
The pump is a dual action type with both a pressure sensor and a wired switch option and I decided to use both. If you turn on the tap this activates the pump (wired) but if you only turn in on a small amount, the pressure sensor will kick in (essentially the lines are acting link a small pressure tank - good for checking for leaks!). I went with this to avoid a situation where a leak formed so the pump would be coming on. Needed? not sure but makes me feel better. Because of the wiring, I did use a relay for the pump so the wires running to the faucets are very small (no problem with voltage drop).
I connected the PEX directly to the pump and it does vibrate - may try isolating it better this year. Bought a crimping tool a while back for the PEX (including some stuff I did at home) and it works really well - connectors are much cheaper than the sharkbite types with a much larger selection. Note that PEX should not be exposed to sunlight as UV will weaken it over time (some types more than others).
One other thing I did with he outside sink - because we do not plan to drink the lake wter (even if chlorinated), I modified the spout of a "Big Bubba" water cooler and ran it through a Whale foot pump to a separate faucet - gives us ice water to drink without using the electric pump.
hope this gives you some other thoughts and ideas.
A couple of photo links:
UnderSink
Diagram
Some more applicable photos spread throughout the album if you want to search Cabin Build Photos
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 03:38pm
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Since my pump is in the shed about 25 feet from the camp I am not bothered by noise or vibration. I hear nothing inside; it's just like turning on a house faucet!
I was concerned about locating it so far away but decided to try it being that it was closer to the water supply and if there were a leak it wouldn't be inside the camp. I'm very happy with this arrangement.
I don't have any problem pushing water that far. My kitchen sink is about 45 linear feet (more if you total the actual pipe length) from the pump with no pressure drop issues.
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Durk
Member
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2016 03:39pm
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Thanks. Nice project---and it looks like you're enjoying it to the max.
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