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cabingal3
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# Posted: 9 Nov 2010 10:00pm
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i was wondering what attributes make a wood stove epa approved as compared to one that is not?? it is more energy effecient?
thanks for any input.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 9 Nov 2010 10:22pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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EPA certified wood stoves use either a catalytic converter or a secondary combustion system to burn the gases given off by the wood as well as the wood itself. That makes the stove more efficient and cleaner; lower emissions. Some states (WA is one) may have more stringent rules. A non-certified or EPA exempt stove may be illegal to install in many places.
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cabingal3
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# Posted: 9 Nov 2010 11:38pm
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MtnDon-does this mean a certified stove has bricks in it for longer burning and less to go into the air .it fends off pollution?? are the stove pipes smaller or is there any other things that make the certified stove so different from the illegal ones?
thank u for answering this post.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2010 12:14am - Edited by: MtnDon
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A non catalytic wood stove usually has firebricks. Mine has them in the sides, the rear and above the fire. The ones above the fire also act as a baffle to direct the burning gases and smoke towards the front of the stove before they then are directed to the rear and out the chimney. There are also perforated stainless steel tubes in that upper area that introduce warmed air to aid in burning the gases. The sides, bottom, top and other parts are cast iron and fitted with gaskets where they interface. That makes for better air tightness. This stove uses a 6 inch pipe. That's two inches smaller than my old non EPA approved stove. I think that smaller pipes are common with newer EPA approved stoves as they are more efficient.
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cabingal3
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2010 09:50am
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thank u very much MntDon.good info.i thought it was just bricks inside that made it so and maybe smaller pipes but i did not know about the air being directed into other areas.thanks.
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larryh
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2010 10:41pm
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This is a subject I have very mixed thoughts about. Having grown up using many older stoves and distinctly recalling there ability to put out lots of heat when needed, my experience buying two very expensive EPA type models was less than happy.
I also know from experience that a automatic type heater where the air intake is controlled from a damper affair is a creosote producer and responsible for much of the issues with wood stoves previously. I used to think that was a great idea, long burn, light one fire a winter, ect.. All good selling points. But once your chimney clogs up with creosote in a few weeks time and cleaning the chimney is necessary numerous times during the winter, you begin to see you have a problem.
Currently I am using a wonderful late 40's manual draft circulator made by Oakland foundry in Belleville Il. It was evidently purchased by a family just before they got central heat and put the heater up in the second floor of the farm home. It looks like new, and works wonderfully. Lots of heat, long burn and best of all, almost no smoke or creosote in the chimney.
To the contrary, the new heaters had tiny fireboxes, were so insulated to reach high burn temperatures that very little of the actual heat ended up in the house. I can get great warmth from my old one in a matter of minutes where the new model took hours and many days never heated the house well. I sold both of them.
I know that the admires and supporters of EPA stoves will usually complain about my old heater, but it does what it should with way less problems and for a fraction of the price. The biggest problem is to find one in very good condition so that you can be sure that safety is at a maximum. I also make sure that every possible clearance and operation is done with care. I wouldn't trade my Oakland for all the new Morso's or Jotuls they make.
Larry
Oakland Vintage Manual heater.
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Holds nice large wood and easy to load.
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cabingal3
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2010 07:18am
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larryh
thanks so much for a great post.i enjoyed reading all of this so much.my guy and i were having a conversation about what makes a stove certified versus the old kinds not approved. i like the idea of not so much insulation in the wood stove cause we have so much wood to clean up on our property.we could be doing a duel multi-tasking by keeping warm and burning all those stacked up burn piles thru out the winter...we are in a real fire prone area.so i know that we will be getting a new certified stove...but i sure do like the looks of that old Oakland Vintage stove u have .
Our neighbor Mel offered us a similar looking stove...only i do not know if it is one like this.it just looks like it.may have to check in again with him and look more seriously at what he had offered us.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2010 04:26pm
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I have some mixed thoughts on EPA certification too. We've been burning wood for about 30 years with both pre 1990 and post 1990 stoves. The best old stove was a Vermont Casting Vigilant that was discontinued when EPA regs came in. Starting a fire was super easy; it had an internal baffle/damper that opened to permit straight from the firebox and up the chimney smoke. Closing the baffle/damper forced the smoke through a rear chamber to draw out more heat. It did not secondary air tubes like newer stoves. Cleaning the chimney was easy as with the baffle opened the crap from the chimney fell right into the firebox where it was simple to remove with the little shovel they supplied. I cleaned that chimney (8 inch) once a year and it was fine. The stove had a thermostatic air control and I was impressed with how well it worked.
The best new stove we've used is also a VC stove, an Aspen, considerably smaller than most and ideal for our 16x30 cabin. This has the same type of thermostatic control. Cleaning the chimney with it requires sliding up the bottom section of telescoping black pipe and placing a bag on the pipe to catch the sweepings as it does not have the internal damper. A bit of a bother as the fire must be right out, stone cold and it is another step. The sweeping would end up dumped into the secondary burn chamber otherwise and would create a problem.
The Aspen has a slightly tougher time getting started, but once you know how it's not a big deal. We use the exterior fresh combustion air kit. Six inch pipe. Cleaned once a year and that's all that is needed.
The new stove seem to be misers on wood use compared to the older stoves. I can't compare directly but years of use seem to bear out the advertised 1/4 to 1/3 less.
The big difference when using is in visible chimney smoke. The older stove nearly always was putting out visible smoke. The new one produces visible smoke only when starting up or right after loading more fuel to the firebox.
There's another difference that doesn't affect us in the mountains but does affect us in the subrban home. Our suburban home is on a mesa overlooking a city in a broad valley. Weather conditions sometimes create temperature inversions that trap dirty air near the ground. On those days old type stoves and fireplaces are banned, unless they are the sole source of heat. Most homes have a gas furnace so can not get the exemption. However, an EPA certified stove, like the VC Encore is allowed as they are so much cleaner burning.
Over the 25 years we've lived here we've seen the number of no burn days decrease. This is not solely due to wood stove improvements, much of that comes from cleaner car & truck exhausts. To me, breathing cleaner air is a plus, not to mention the visual pollution of the brown cloud.
So back to mixed thoughts; I prefer small government in general, fewer regulations. But, I can see improvements in the quantity of smoke. I do not see any more creosoting of the chimney, perhaps that is in part due to less wood being burned in the more efficient stove. So I'm okay with these increased rules.
Back home with the original Vigilant I know my smoke bothered a few neighbors at times. They told me so. Here with the Encore nobody has ever said a thing.
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larryh
Member
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2010 07:06pm
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Don,
I have watched my chimney closely. No smoke except when the fire is not burning well such as when starting. If I see a bit of smoke I know that I need to open the air a hair. I believe the automatic air controls are why one sees so much smoke with most wood heaters. They tend to start to burn well which is how they keep the chimney clean and the smoke to a minimum and then the damper starts to cut it back where it sits and smolders which does produce creosote and smoke.
My heater would produce no dangerous sparks out of the chimney. I think one would have to almost have a run away fire to cause such a lift to the air. My biggest worry as one ages is forgetting when I have started the fire or added wood and opened the manual control to achieve a hot burn for a while. If you aren't careful you could have a problem is the stove runs too high for some time. Fortunately I usually can hear the stove or pipe heating up an it reminds me to check the fire.
In fact both the new stoves had considerably more build up in the flue than my old one did in two years. The supposedly improved Jotul Black Bear had in two months a pretty good build up in the chimney when it took it out after being tired of being cold.
Larry
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2010 08:46pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Our experiences with automatic thermostats do seem to differ, Larry. Our newer VC stoves do not produce the visible smoke that the pre 1990 stove did when the main air flap is throttled back Their reburn really does a good job. I believe there has been some evolution with the stoves since 1990 just as cars went through a process when auto emissions were first regulated. In the VC stoves at least, the reburn air is not controlled by the main thermostatically controlled air flap. It is independent and not user adjustable.
I'm quite pleased with our VC stoves. Maybe the two year seasoned (minimum) wood helps, maybe a hot AM fire every day helps, maybe it's because it uses less wood (seemingly) ... ???
I have heard somewhere that the Jotul BB did not provide as much warmth as the mfg or dealer claimed. No idea where I read that.
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larryh
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2010 10:31pm
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I can attest to the fact that the Black Bear was highly over rated and pretty much ruined by the EPA guidelines. The reason a new stove can operate with a auto damper is that the government now forbids them to cut the air down to a point that they did in the older stoves. So yes, a new stove with that feature would not be the problem of a pre EPA one. I was basically though referencing those older stoves when it came to creosote issues. But as I mentioned the Black Bear made a fair share of it even though I burned it with very dry wood and kept it operating at a pretty good clip, I had to and still never got the living room up to 68 many cold days. The rest of the house was fridge.. Something I am not having with the old Oakland.
I am not so much against anyone wishing to own a new stove with a tiny firebox an two thirds of its wall insulated against heat output if they want it. I just was trying to point out that an older quality stove of the non automatic type can still be a good choice and will operate cleanly.
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crz53
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2010 10:39pm - Edited by: crz53
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Larry,
I have that exact same Oakland stove at my home. I got it from my grandmother after she passed away a year ago. I'm finally getting around to setting it up, and now I'm having to play ring-around-the-rosey with the St.Louis county Public Works department in order to get it permitted. One of the things that they require is a copy of the owner's manual for the stove. My grandma didn't have any paperwork with hers. When I saw your picture, I couldn't believe it. Do you happen to have, or know where I might find, any sort of manual for this sort of stove? I've been having a tough time tracking down the information because it appears that the Oakland Foundry Co. went bankrupt sometime in the 1970's. Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
- Mike Lorenz
crz53@yahoo.com
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2017 10:38pm - Edited by: KinAlberta
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Well, I get the impression that such units are rare commodities.
I just finished googling one of our old coal and wood stoves / heater, also an Oakland, and quite coincidentally LarryH here on small cabin forum has the only one even close to what we have. Ours looks older and simpler but very similar. Has a similar dark brown finish that fades to black. Ours however has the pipe exiting out the back and the base is open with legs.
Also, creates very little build up in the pipes.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2017 09:11am
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depends oh who the manufacturer pays to get a sticker.
The EPA is trying to ban wood burning stove
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old243
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2017 09:28am
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I like going to hearth.com It is a site that discusses, wood stoves, fire place inserts, chimney installations. There is a section on the older stoves as well. There are chat lines that might get you information on your stove.
We have an older fisher , mama bear at our camp. it was made before the regs came in. No plans to remove it. At this site there are plans to install a plate that creates a secondary burn , and said to reduce emissions. It will really bog the heat out, has a 6 inch chimney, but good fire control.
I really think a lot of peoples problems arise from . A poor chimney and not properly dried wood. At home we have a pacific woodstove , works well. Holds fire, just rake your coals ahead each morning. put some small wood in and open her up good for a while. Cleans out the stove ash and warms the chimney. old243
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2017 09:58am - Edited by: bldginsp
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Even in seemingly 'remote' areas of the country, like Montana, they are starting to have serious problems with particulates in the air. They keep improving the ability of stoves to combust more and more efficiently, and hopefully be user friendly. Remember when the first smogged cars came out? I had a 75 Dodge dart with a smog pump on it- the car was definitely slowed down by the smog equipment. But they fixed that pretty well.
Have a look at the Kimberly stove. It has a fairly elaborate system of upper combustion chambers. So efficient it can use a pellet stove flu. But, at least now, VERY expensive. 1.9 grams per hour versus 3.2 for my EPA certified Morso.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 1 Feb 2017 08:48pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: bldginsp But, at least now, VERY expensive. 1.9 grams per hour versus 3.2 for my EPA certified Morso.
Pffffft, gross polluters, both of them. 
My Quadrafire 3100 Millennium is rated at 1.1 grams. This is the woodstove i have at my home/residence and I bought it way back in 2002. This is a big stove too, not a small cabin unit.
Quadrafire is made in my state, in fact, the factory is about 35-40 miles as a crow flies from my cabin. 
http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/3100-Millennium-Wood-Stove.aspx
Wow, just saw the price, I paid only $800 for mine. It was $1600 total installed, labor, permits, pipe, stove etc. Now the stove itself is $1795 
I did add the factory blower kit to mine for another $200. Who would of thunk'd the conservative is greener than the greenies. 
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 1 Feb 2017 09:09pm
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The Quadrafire stuff is intriguing. The website is a little vague, but the automatic air controls seem to function not only as a thermostat, but also to maintain peak burn efficiency throughout the cycle of each burn load. Computer chips in wood stoves- welcome to the modern world.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 1 Feb 2017 09:12pm
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech I did add the factory blower kit to mine for another $200. Who would of thunk'd the conservative is greener than the greenies.
When clean technology is the best economic choice, everyone wins.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 1 Feb 2017 09:22pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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In all honesty, when looking for this stove, I was looking for the best burn times, ie longest on X amount of wood. This one won. It was the most efficient in its day. Looks like its still holding its own. I only burn in it maybe 2-3 times a year. During power outages or special events, ie snowing outside, Christmas or Thanks giving day etc.
I have since met a retired engineer from Quadrafire on the ham radio. He was the one who engineered it, he is also a cabineer. too. Small world. 
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