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MtnDon
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# Posted: 3 Mar 2016 08:53pm
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I like trackers. You can usually gain 50% power output easy. Very nice for opportunity loads like A/C. One of my friends runs a 1400 sq ft home with split mini A/C with 2000 watts of panels. Two tracker arrays.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 3 Mar 2016 09:08pm
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I like this tracker system because there's no motor. It's all based on natural principles. I need to find reviews of this one. If it is all that and a bag of chips, I might be able to reduce the wattage of the panels for the same output if I used it.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 3 Mar 2016 09:20pm
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Zomeworks has been making these here in NM since the 80's. The company started in the 70's I think.
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rockmtn
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# Posted: 4 Mar 2016 08:26am
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Just keep in mind, for the cost of that solar tracker you could add 2 more panels to your system, and have more output for less $ invested. This is the trend in the industry.
Things that move tend to break eventually. A manual adjustment for seasonal tracking is definitely worth investing in, but perhaps not daily tracking.
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creeky
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# Posted: 4 Mar 2016 10:50am
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I'm with rockmtn. trackers are a waste of time and money. esp off grid full time. I use seasonal tracking. Mostly for the winter to get those last watts in and the steeper angle sheds snow.
The victron multiplus inverter/charger (amazon link) is very reliable. Have a look at the boating community boards. These things perform for decades.
Julie2 is going off grid full time. There's no room for swapping boards and down time. Leave that for the part timers.
One thing I really like about the Victron's is that if you are charging from a very small generator (say a honda 1000i) and you start the microwave in the kitchen, the multiplus will automatically add power from the batteries to support the genny. This is a very useful real life off grid feature.
Also note: the Morningstar solar controller TS-mppt-60 I recommend is hundreds less than the mainstream competition. Plus you don't get nickle and dimed with add ons. Lightening protection is already built in. No fan means less idle power draw. You set some dip switches and you're ready to go.
Want to know what your system is doing. Plug a standard RJ-45 cable (basic internet cable) into the controller and either directly into your computer or into your router. Open your web browser, type in the serial number. Voila. You can go to LiveView which shows you what your system is doing live. Or DataView which gives you the last 100 days.
Remember, full time. Off grid.
Julie2's described system, with my upgrades, will easily run all her loads and a small 10-14 cu.ft. electric fridge. This lowers her appliance and ongoing energy costs substantially.
Good luck.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 12:46am
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creeky
The Morningstar is just $70 less than the MidNite Solar Classic. I want the MidNite Solar model because I'm considering a wind turbine, at some point. I've been keeping an eye on the wind speeds in that area -- not only for that but also regarding my cabin build/property -- and, yeah, a turbine would definitely be feasible, lol.
The MidNite Solar Classic has wind and hydro modes. I'd love to use a turbine to help to recharge the battery bank in the winter on the cloudy, stormy days. Turbines aren't expensive and they're rather straight-forward when it comes to setup and operation.
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Bret
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 07:20am
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Might be opening a can of worms, but here goes.
https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/2015-midnite-classic-problems/
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Jebediah
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 08:30am
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Quoting: Bret Might be opening a can of worms, but here goes.
Maybe this one deserves its own thread.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 09:53am
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Just to be sure you are aware, each power source, PV, wind, hydro, needs its own controller.
...and handybob is a very opinionated person and not always right, IMO
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 05:59pm
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Quoting: MtnDon Just to be sure you are aware, each power source, PV, wind, hydro, needs its own controller.
Dang. So I can't simply change the mode, then, eh? As in, at night, set the charge controller on Wind mode rather than solar to charge the batteries?
I believe I've seen hybrid controllers that you can use one for both wind and solar. Perhaps it was on a wind power site.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 06:19pm
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RE: HandyBob. I dunno. I had to read two paragraphs of paranoia and persecution about whether he'll be sued or smeared before I got to what his actual beef was. Which made me wonder whether his beef had any merit. 
And it sounds like Midnight Solar tried everything in their power to make things right. They sent him a couple of new charge controllers AND they sent him a brand new upgraded model which he refused to try. Is the problem the charge controller or is it HandyBob's installation?
The Midnight Solar charge controller I've chosen isn't the model he's panned. It might be in the family of controllers that he refused to try? Whatever the case, I don't think I'll be basing my choice on his post.
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Jebediah
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 06:20pm - Edited by: Jebediah
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon I believe I've seen hybrid controllers that you can use one for both wind and solar
Check out Missouri Wind and Solar, they seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject and build most of their own components.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 06:54pm
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Thanks, Jebediah! Will do!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 10:07pm
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Quoting: Jebediah Check out Missouri Wind and Solar, they seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject and build most of their own components.
And a Google search turns up a lot of negative comments about them, so more research would be needed, IMO.
Wind ?hydro charge controllers need to work in a different way than PV solar controllers. I don't understand how one unit could handle a sunny windy day; simultaneous wind and solar inputs. But I will admit I have not followed wind or hydro carefully as our wind is undependable and our hydro non existent.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 10:35pm
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HandyBob has been wrong in the past. Like most of us with systems that worked for us, he is knowledgeable about his set up. after that. well. check some of the boating/rv community off grid power forums. there are some very good folks out there.
Remember Julie2. You have to cost the lightening protection and web monitoring into your outback controller as well. both are included with the morningstar. plus. web view monitoring is the best.
and we've all seen our budgets explode with $70 here and 100 there.
The thing about the european inverter/charger/solar controllers (victron) is they are much more careful about the quality of components that go into them. that's why they have the best warranties. but it's your money.
if you want to swap out an inverter the week before xmas (my experience) go for the cheap stuff. otherwise (my next experience) go for the good stuff and worry never more.
there are wind maps available online. my area is terrible for wind. you also have to look at height of trees. vs height of tower. raising and lowering the tower. cost of tower. etc. wind turbines are costly and maintenance heavy. The bearings are particularly prone to failure.
hydro is the dream power source. do you have a year round stream with good drop on your property? if you don't. write it off. if you have a steep dropping creek or river on your property I would explore hydro seriously.
as MtnDon points out. you need a controller for each set up. However I understand that a basic pwm is all that is required for hydro. ha. another few hundred saved. good luck.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Mar 2016 10:55pm
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Quoting: creeky if you want to swap out an inverter the week before xmas (my experience) go for the cheap stuff. otherwise (my next experience) go for the good stuff and worry never more.
??? I don't think Magnum is considered a cheap brand, is it? 
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2016 12:21am
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon ??? I don't think Magnum is considered a cheap brand, is it?
Magnum is good stuff. My previous point was that it is good and it is made in USA in nearby WA state which is handy IF anything is needed. I will agree that Victron has a good name, but I don't believe it to be a better name or better product than Magnum just because it is sourced from Europe (Netherlands).
I do like to buy American made, but I'm not stubborn about it. My car was made in Japan, not just a Japanese name made here but actually 100% made in Japan.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2016 12:44am
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Quoting: MtnDon My previous point was that it is good and it is made in USA in nearby WA state which is handy IF anything is needed.
Yes, I like this aspect of it, too. A solid product with manufacturing in Washington is a win-win, IMO.
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Jebediah
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2016 07:01am
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Quoting: MtnDon Google search turns up a lot of negative comments about them, so more research would be needed, IMO.
I agree with your comment.
Their site has a plethora of DIY information for beginner. In reference to Julie2Oregon question I was under the same understanding and I had also read something about using one charge controller or maybe it was one inverter for both wind and solar. Solar Wind and Power was the only site I had visited lately and was surprised to see the amount information/ videos that are on their site. Wind power seemed to be their main focus.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2016 07:28am
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Jebediah
I've been reading the Midnight Classic manual and you program/save some sort of wind curves that reflect your wind situation under Mode. You can either use one of their generic curves or your own based on real data. And I further read that if you change Modes, you restart the controller.
So it *may* be possible to run a Solar mode by day and the Wind mode at night, for instance. I don't know this for a fact, of course, but if there are different modes and the controller handles solar, wind, and hydro, it could be. They do say you can change modes if your solar isn't producing due to excess cloud-cover and shadow.
I will probably give them a call in the coming days. It's not a deal-breaker because I'm probably not going to add a turbine right off the bat but I am curious.
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creeky
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2016 09:50pm
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From my research Victron is one of the best names worldwide. Read the RV/Boating sites.
Or look at the warranty
Magnum et al : 2 years
Victron: 5 years
I may have mentioned. The european controllers/inverters etc are sourcing all materials (diodes, mosfets etc) in Europe with exceptionally high quality control.
Same price or cheaper. Better warranty.
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offgridjunkie
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 05:14pm - Edited by: offgridjunkie
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Julie2Oregon: I hate to be the guy to rain on this parade, but after reading your generator thread, I wanted to get a better understanding of your system.
From what I read, you are planning to run 975 watts of solar. Your battery bank is looking for 2500 watts of solar for its max charge rate of c/2. I would really suggest you double your panel watts to make up the difference so you really get the full benefit of your battery (you spent a lot of money to be able to charge and discharge quickly - make sure you do it). You should always charge them as high and fast as you can - Reduces DOD which improves cycle life.
I know you have gotten a lot of help from other members, but you really need to understand what your battery manual says. Look at page 4 of this URL I believe you bought the HQ-12-5K so that says max charging watts is 2500 watts.
Just my $.02
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 09:42pm
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offgridjunkie
I'm not following why I'd need 2500 watts of panels for a daily electric USE of about 900 watts plus battery charging? My only electrical appliances are a small chest freezer that uses about 400 watts per day, a small Energy Star TV @ 150 watts per day IF I watched it 5 hours daily (I wouldn't), 2 LED lights, a modem, laptop charging, and a small Shurflo RV pump. Once or twice a week, I'd run my portable washer and it uses a couple hundred watts.
It seems to me that 975 watts of monocrystalline panels will more than meet my electric requirements AND keep the battery charging. It's not as though the panels will only produce 975 watts total daily, unless I'm misunderstanding panel wattage.
I know there's a draw from the inverter and obviously at night when there's no sun. But, again, my use is so small that the panels should charge the battery again during the day since there won't be a lot of electrical use taking up production, even on cloudy days.
Am I totally off on that?
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creeky
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 09:52pm
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ogj. max charge rate and acceptable charge rate are 2 different things. obviously with solar storage any charge rate is better than nothing; Still chemistry counts.
lead acid for instance benefits from a brisk charge rate. you need to kick electrons into lead. C/10 is good. (that's 1/10 of the amp hr rate. so a system with 1000 amps storage should go 100 amps charging). but lead acid. sadly. is very inefficient. so that c/10 is effective for but a brief period of time. it rapidly drops after that. oh how very rapidly. Ouch really.
lithium however is more receptive to electrons regardless. it is smiling with a high or low charge rate. Yes, at c/2 1000 amps can handle 500 amps charging. However lifepo4 in particular does not need that high charge rate. It is 96% efficient even at lower charge rates. Zownds!
With 1kw of solar panel charging Julie2 should be able to replace up to 6kws per day depending on season/weather.
Thus, with 5 kw storage she can replace her 1kw use per day at 1 kw of panels in 1.1 hrs of max panel output (another topic). Or go 3 days without much replacement and on a sunny day replenish her batteries in 3 hrs of max sunlight.
More realistically. In a summer sunny days power usage scenario. She can use 1-3 kw overnight. Wow. That's a lot of power. plus use an additional 3-4 kws while the sun shines.
(Which is what I do. I've used 1 kw overnight (tv, internet. fridge usually). And then used 4 kw during the day. (Dishwasher. Air conditioner. being the bulk of that usage.) My max is 6 kw. In fact I equalized my batteries. Ran a bunch of other stuff. and used almost 6 kw today. It's early spring. Lots of sun. No worries.)
In a winter situation she can eke out her power use (as mentioned) with no tv and limited internet. and not opening the fridge and staring into the depths hoping an easy to make supper will suddenly appear (no that is not what I've been doing). and still be well off power wise.
Result: the advantage of lithium is it is more efficient storing electrons. Can handle a higher charge rate if necessary. Sweet. Yet is happy charging at a lower rate. Maple syrup (er, very sweet, lower glycemic index). and lives a long time while you prosper.
to sum up: while lead acid needs a kick in the butt to charge at max efficiency and stay young; Lithium is already an order more efficient. no worries about high/low charge rates. no butt kicking. no artificial aging due to charge conditions. it's all good.
grin.
Really. Julie2. You got the HQ-12-5k. Me so green.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 10:10pm
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creeky
Thank you for explaining all of that. And creatively, too!  I get it but I can't explain it, lol.
Yep, I decided to bite the bullet and go for the 12-5K. I haven't ordered it yet, will do so right when I get to OR. No sales tax in OR AND Balqon is right next door in California so shipping will be faster.
If I'm going to spend an extra $1,200 on one of my budgeted items, it's going to be on a lithium battery for solar storage and NOT on a generator. That just makes more sense to me in the long run. Invest more in the power system itself, not more on the backup machine.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 29 Mar 2016 10:36pm
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Oh, but I should add that I'm in NO WAY judging or criticizing others for whom a premium generator IS important. It makes PERFECT SENSE for a lot of people.
But I'm a chick, I'm not running a bunch of power-hungry tools and doing my own construction, plus with the way I'll have a chunk of money that I need to utilize well from my house sale, I have to prioritize. I need to concentrate on what I consider my essentials and the big-ticket items -- the dried-in cabin and foundation (of course), electric system, water/wastewater/sanitary items, heat. The other stuff can be done well over time.
I don't want to be playing "add a panel" and "add a battery" because I'm not doing those installations myself and I don't want to be caught short. I want my solar power system to be more than adequate for my use and the components to be compatible and the same age. Get it done and immediately begin to put a little bit of money aside for when I need to start replacing or upgrading things several years down the road.
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offgridjunkie
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# Posted: 30 Mar 2016 11:46am
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon I don't want to be playing "add a panel" and "add a battery" because I'm not doing those installations myself and I don't want to be caught short.
That is why I recommended more panels now rather than later. I get Creekys point of efficiency, but panels are relatively cheap right now and I just want you to get the best bang for your buck and keep that battery bank nice and happy, especially since you are going to be relying on it. Just my $.02 - I would charge my bank at the highest possible c/ rate they can handle.
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