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rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 28 Feb 2016 09:42am Reply Hi all. I've been researching alternatives for lighting our new camp and have been buzzing through these forums quite a bit and have put a bit of effort into the following over the winter and I'd ask you all to indulge me with a critique/alternative ideas. Many of my plans have come from these very forums so thank you in advance!!!!! We bought an island w/ a cabin on it last fall....yeah...a dream come true...right time right place...well under $100,000...so I am not talking a million dollar palace here. Current set up is propane lights/fireplace and 2 yr old propane fridge. There is a 100 gallon wooden copper lined tank on the roof to supply head pressure to a direct draw from the lake, (old Briggs & Stratton gas powered water pump 60' from cabin...with associated 60-80' of galvanized waterline). Basically a kitchen and water closet, no shower....pex water lines and a new septic installed recently. My plan is to either replace or augment the propane lamps...they work well but the temps in the place (in the fall)get over 85 in the camp with the lights on...stifling....would be murder in the summer. Here are my ideas: As the construction in open frame I plan on running 14 gauge romex to have outlets in convenient areas for 12v e-36 base bulb led lamps. It is 2 story and the studs run 23' vertical..(built in the 1880's)..I'll run the romex through second to first floor, install outlets...run wires through the ground floor along the pier beams to a panel with 2-6 volt golf cat batteries ganged for 12 volt. (I'll have 2 sets with a marine switch to alternate between 1,2 and off. I will use some of the lamps collecting dust in our basement w/e26 base 12 volt LED 60w bulbs....so it will look like regular lighting...(don't like the look of RV fixtures for this use) figure 20-25 bulbs (way over estimating) by the time I add fixtures in kitchen, bathroom, stairwells......at 9w per draw if all on at one time....which would NEVER happen. Primarily weekend use...one or hopefully 2 week long vacations per year. I'm pretty much settled on a Champion 3,500 watt generator w/a remote start as it would make life easier for my wife and daughter to start...(Oh I plan on installing a dedicated outlet on each floor for vacuum cleaner use at 120v...wife's orders). I will install a 120 volt water pump...next to the cabin vs 60' away...set up a pressurized well tank and maybe a propane hot water heater to accommodate domestic water and discard the 200 gallon wood barrel on roof and 80' of galvanized piping. Run gen set after breakfast and diner clean up to fill tank(s). The generator doesn't have a 12v outlet so need a charger...Had hoped to use gen for batt charging while the lake populations' boats are running wild on the lake to mask the noise...but I'm feeling it would need to run for 8-10 hours when we got to the point of needing a recharge....not the best solution. We get a terrific westerly breeze and ample southern exposure..so solar and wind may work...but I can't seem to get the math right as to what I would need for those. I think either would work but I'd rather not put panels on roof. Slightly N/W of the Adirondack park...heavy heavy snow and -30 degrees in winter are not uncommon...not sure how panels would handle that.... So in essence...I'm pretty much convinced 12 volt LED is the way to go and I think my water system makes sense....just really up in the air about recharging...but I am open to any thoughts/suggestions as I've not pulled the trigger on anything. Would appreciate any feedback on 12v e-36 base bulb users out there too ....or any other thought on this. Thank you all in advance

neb Member	# Posted: 28 Feb 2016 10:15am Reply I'm not going to be much help with your question but my two cents would be use a generator. Some of your alternatives are costly and will work at times but not all the time. It sounds like you have a great place and we would love to see a picture and where you are located at. Thanks and keep us posted. You will have the experts chiming in on some advise.

rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 28 Feb 2016 10:44am Reply Thanks Neb...will post pix tomorrow from office computer. I'm in Upstate, NY...the REAL upstate, not north of the Bronx..about 1/2 an hour from Rochester The camp is between Fort Drum/Watertown and Canada in an area known as the 1000 Islands....that is why it was so "reasonable" it is not unique up here...but we got an incredible deal as the family who had it for four generations had no interest in it....needs lots of debris removed but when we're done...it will be super. I'm thinking along those lines too...but looking at some of the charging posts I'm really confused. But regardless of an Iota or similar unit I will need to run my charge sequence 10+ hours..just hoping for a "better" solution.

beachman Member	# Posted: 28 Feb 2016 12:20pm Reply My 2 cents. Since you are planning to run 14/2 Romex, I would highly recommend solar. We have about the same propane set up and the lights do give off a lot of heat in the summer. Fall, winter and spring you will want that warmth. Go with a simple solar set up with a panel (225 to 300 watt) set in a southerly direction, relatively near the cabin. Run wires (say #10 if within about 30 to 40 ft) to a charge controller, from there to a couple of deep cycle batteries to keep them changed. Then, to an inverter, preferably pure sine, then to a distribution panel to hook into the cabin circuits. This can get complicated but there is a ton of info on this site and the web. You won't need the generator for the most part and if the batteries are kept charged, they should not freeze.

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 28 Feb 2016 12:50pm Reply Quoting: rachelsdad 2-6 volt golf cat batteries ganged for 12 volt. (I'll have 2 sets with a marine switch to alternate between 1,2 and off Personally I am not sure that is a good idea. On a boat that is frequently done to ensure there is sufficient battery power to crank an engine. In a cabin switches like that will mean you will run down the batteries that are connected. Now you have unbalanced pairs that will need to be recharged independent of each other. To my mind that just made the power situation more complicated. Quoting: rachelsdad .heavy heavy snow and -30 degrees in winter are not uncommon...not sure how panels would handle that.... The cold temperature is not harmful. As a matter of fact cold panels produce more voltage, which when combined with an MPPT charge controller results in more power for recharging batteries. PV panels must meet standards for wind and snow loads. If you winter angle the panels for that high north latitude most snow will slide off. Pole top mounted panels, instead of on the roof, will often make what cleaning is needed easier. Quoting: rachelsdad .....I will need to run my charge sequence 10+ hours..just hoping for a "better" solution. Solar PV ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Systems that rely on generators to recharge the batteries very often have their batteries fail sooner than systems that include PV. Reason; people don't run the generator long enough to reach 100% full. Batteries that are not brought to 100% at least a couple times a week begin to lose capacity. The battery begins to see 98% or whatever as being the new 100% and a downward slide commences. If you rely on a generator only to charge the batteries that can create a winter issue if we are talking about flooded lead acid batteries. Lead acid batteries lose charge just sitting there un-used. They likely would not make it through a winter without recharging at intervals. A fully charged battery will not freeze until -90 F. A PV system built with reliable components can maintain a 100% full charge through the winter even if nobody goes there.

buckybuck Member	# Posted: 28 Feb 2016 03:23pm - Edited by: buckybuck Reply You're planning to use the 12 volt electrical system only for lighting, mostly two or three days at a time? Here's a left field idea--why not go cordless instead? There's some really nice USB LED lights available nowadays, like this one on Amazon. I've seen them for less. I have a couple of these and really like them. You can get them in either warm or cool white, and tweak a lamp fixture so that you could use one of these in place of a normal bulb. Run them off USB power banks, like those sold to recharge cell phones and tablets. You can buy a lot of these USB power banks for the price of a couple of golf cart batteries, solar panels, or a generator, and you avoid the time and aggravation of having to run wiring. Charge the USB power banks at home and bring them with you. I know a 5000 mah power bank will power one of these for at least 6 hours, at which point my wife made me stop. That would last me a whole weekend. And if needed, there are plenty of options available to recharge them, both on and off-grid.

Topper Member	# Posted: 28 Feb 2016 04:14pm Reply buckybuck I'm going to have to try these lights. Thanks for the heads up. I have one of these for jump starting the jeep. Don't know how it would work in practice, but could be a power source for lights as well? especially if you already have one... http://www.crutchfield.com/p_860PDJS12K/PowerAll-Deluxe.html?tp=6793&awkw=75622039225 &awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=47439289345&awdv=c

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 28 Feb 2016 05:04pm Reply The USB power pack idea, for use with small portable LED lights has some merit. Probably how the other people involved feel about it.

rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 29 Feb 2016 06:59am Reply Quoting: beachman Then, to an inverter, preferably pure sine, then to a distribution panel to hook into the cabin circuits. Beachman: I'm planning on running 12v lamps in the place...pardon the ignorance but what is the inverter for between the batteries and panel?. Could you recommend a website or retailer for the panels and associated parts?? Quoting: MtnDon Personally I am not sure that is a good idea. On a boat that is frequently done to ensure there is sufficient battery power to crank an engine. In a cabin switches like that will mean you will run down the batteries that are connected. Now you have unbalanced pairs that will need to be recharged independent of each other. To my mind that just made the power situation more complicated. MtnDon: Great input. I'll check w. local Batteryworld today...wondering if in fact I do need 2 sets of 6volt gc batteries at all. Only lamp that will really be on much is in the stairwell at night.... Quoting: buckybuck You're planning to use the 12 volt electrical system only for lighting, mostly two or three days at a time? Here's a left field idea--why not go cordless instead? See the part of my post regarding the wife involvment ...I like that idea for the boat house though Oh and for the record...it is inaccessible in the winter I would haul the batteries home with me when I close up late fall.

rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 29 Feb 2016 07:08am Reply Thanks everyone for the replies!! Quoting: beachman Go with a simple solar set up with a panel (225 to 300 watt) set in a southerly direction, This is enough to do the job?? Quoting: MtnDon Systems that rely on generators to recharge the batteries very often have their batteries fail sooner than systems that include PV. Reason; people don't run the generator long enough to reach 100% full. Yup, that was my concern about running the genset for 10-12 hours when needed. So....a good solar set up w/a small generator just in case should do it ? Any takers on my water system ideas??

beachman Member	# Posted: 29 Feb 2016 01:28pm Reply If you are running a 12v system, no need for the inverter. Just with new LED bulbs, you can really do some neat things with a 120 volt system that you may find useful for other applications - and you can use standard household lamps to run them. I am in no way an electrician or a seasoned solar expert but a solar newby that is sold on this type of system. For my water system, I am using a 12v Sure-flow water pump that cycles automatically and has a small expansion tank to prevent over-cycling and smoother water pressure. This is hooked into a 35 gal tank above the washroom with pex tubing. (Actually Whale fixtures from Paynes Marine). For the 12v pump, I bypass the inverter directly to the pump. All the rest is on 120 volt from the inverter. There are better sources here for detailed info - and elsewhere - NAWS, for one. My panel (235w) came from Canadian Solar from and NB dealer. I have a Blue Sky Solar Boost 2512iX-HV charge controller and 2 - Trojan 6v batteries in series for 12v production - then to a panel with some breakers and a shunt for the monitor, to a 1000w pure sine inverter, then to a Square D distribution panel to the circuits -(plugs and lights). Some may see problems with this but I am forging ahead to completion with rubber gloves this spring.

rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 1 Mar 2016 07:44am - Edited by: rachelsdad Reply Interesting.....I had planned on the 12 volt system simply due to the fact that the 12 volt LED bulbs will fit into standard household lamps as well....but the inverter requires some reconsideration...it does open up other options... That being said...I also like the straight 12 v system because I don't think our power requirements are that intense. No need to replace a perfectly good propane fridge...we will not allow a TV...or computer.. on site. Only appliance I can think of save for the vacuum my wife demands is a toaster. My daughter and I have peanut butter toast together every weekend morning for breakfast...but I've already shown her the Coughlin campfire toaster we're going to use...she's intrigued...(she's also pre-teen..so I am still cool). There is 4g service and I have umpteen charging pods for the smart phones...still...the inverter idea may make sense Ok...now I need to pester you on your water set up. This sounds a lot simpler than what I had planned on doing. Is that pump/tank a combo unit? I Googled and saw a few The 35 gallon tank: is it a white "plastic" tank like you can buy at Tractor Supply...and why mounted above? For head pressure or just to get it out of the way? Quoting: beachman Some may see problems with this but I am forging ahead to completion with rubber gloves this spring. sounds familiar!!! thank you so much for your replies...great stuff to think about!!

Bridge Boy Member	# Posted: 2 Mar 2016 01:14am Reply I would very much consider purchasing a Honda 2000 generator. Fairly easy to carry, economical and very reliable. My wife is able to start it with ease. For the price, the Honda is hard to beat as others have stated on this forum. You could also move up to a Honda 3000 which would give you electric start. Bridge Boy

rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 2 Mar 2016 07:07am Reply Bridge Boy... I don't know why I don't just pull the trigger on one of those little Hondas...EVERYONE loves them....of course when I just Googled them again a Smarter Tools 2000w gen came up for $350 less...w/stellar ratings....both have the direct DC to charge the batteries..if the sun is not cooperating...and run a small water pump like Beachman suggested. arrrrgh!!!

Wilbour Member	# Posted: 2 Mar 2016 08:36am - Edited by: Wilbour Reply If you are in the 1000 islands I'm upstream on the largest of the islands in Canadian waters.

rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 3 Mar 2016 08:21am Reply Welsley or Montreal???

razmichael Member	# Posted: 3 Mar 2016 09:33am Reply 12 volt from generator not a good idea for battery charging. If you want your batteries to last you need a smart charger (3 stage minimum). The generator 12v outputs will work in an emergency but not suitable for constant use. Your current plan is similar to my setup (not suggesting mine is the best!). SO I'll ramble a bit about the setup I put together in case it gives you some ideas. Take it all with a grain of salt. By the way - great find for the island cottage - lovely area. In general I run all the lights, water pump etc off 12V (not sure why you want to use a 120 pump). I only turn on the inverter when I need 120 for something. I have 2x165 watt panels running into 2x Trojan T105 6 volt batteries through a Prostar 30 amp controller. Batteries are also connected to a Xantrex HF1800 Inverter than includes a built in transfer switch and smart charger. The rare occasions when I need to augment the solar I plug the generator into the outside connector (proper connector) and the Inverter will switch the 120V source from the inverter to the generator as well as properly charge the batteries. Lots of other bits and pieces in the system (fuses, On/Off switches, Autolocking relay etc etc) and crazy complex wiring and circuits that are not needed but fun to design and install. Wiring - I went overboard on the wiring, partly because I had a source of #10 from a friend so I did everything to reduce voltage drop (a problem with 12VDC). I distributed the 12V to three points in the cabin using double #10-3 cables then split this up (each branch fused) to #12-3 to lights and 12V outlets. Way overkill but as I stated in my build thread Build Thread , I had way too much time over the winter to design things. I used far more light switches than might be needed but the idea was to allow only one or two lights on at a time when that was all that was required rather than one switch turning on 4 or 5 lights. It also reduced the amp load on each circuit thus reducing the voltage drop. Like you, I purchased standard base 12V LED bulbs so I could use regular fittings. For three way switches (loft lights from main floor and loft) I used really low power relays to reduce the wire run and voltage drop. For 120V I wired in six outlets (on two circuits). At some point I will hardwire the inverter into a circuit box but, given the limited use of the 120v, I simply added a plug to each circuit and plugged them into the inverter outlets (as these are GFCI and protected anyway). The inverter is kept off unless needed (it has a remote on/off switch). As mentioned by MtnDon - winter for the batteries should be fine if a charge is maintained. Two winters so far (in Quebec) without an issue (assuming this winter will make 3). Even in winter my batteries continue to power a couple of motion sensor outdoor LED flood lights but the rest of the circuits are off. Does it all work? Longest single stay was 2 weeks. Never needed the generator despite kids using lights way more than needed, a vari-cyclone 12V ceiling fan on much of the time, my wife drying her hair every second day, occasional use of the toaster and vacuum cleaner. Also includes a cell booster (12v) and charging station for phones, ipad, e-readers etc. Even recharge my 18v power tool batteries at times. Even through multiple cloudy days I never saw the battery voltage dropping to less than 75% I will note that the HF1800 is not a true sine wave inverter but I have yet found anything that I really need a true sine wave inverter for. If I do, I may well just add a small one to power that specific item. Keep in mind however, when I purchased the HF1800, to get a true sine wave with the same features would have cost a fortune - much cheaper now. I love the combined features of the HF1800 but you could certainly add a separate transfer switch (manual or automatic) and a separate smart charger. To be honest, if I was doing it all again I might just wire for primarily 120V with some backup 12V - based on the reduced cost, increased efficiency and features of the newer inverters. Not sure - but purely academic at this stage (for me - not you). There are some diagrams and photos among Cabin Photos Well used although slightly dated site for 12V information at 12V side of things if you have not already seen it.

Wilbour Member	# Posted: 3 Mar 2016 09:47am Reply Quoting: rachelsdad Welsley or Montreal??? Wolfe Island, across from Kingston.

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 3 Mar 2016 09:48am Reply razmichael is correct about the DC charging output from the generators. The output is rather low, maybe 8 amps on the eu2000i IIRC. Your generator would be running all the time. Plus, read the instruction manual and you see the eco switch has to be turned off; run at full throttle. A true 3 stage charger is needed to get best life from the batteries. Iota chargers, even with the IQ4 are not the best. Samlex makes some that are better. The Iota are great when used connected to grid power or for once in a while "cloudy day" use. The output voltages are a little lower which extends the generator run time. Iota chargers can be tweaked for higher voltage output. Not something for everyone to get into.

rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 3 Mar 2016 02:10pm Reply I have not read through the 2 posts here but I wanted to respond to why I wanted the 120 v water pump. That was to draw/fill a water storage tank....and then to pressurize a well tank...both ideas out the window since I started this thread...looks like rainwater to fill a storage tank ...12v to pump in the cabin... More later...great reading here!!!!!!!! I'm so excited

rachelsdad Member	# Posted: 3 Mar 2016 02:20pm - Edited by: rachelsdad Reply Quoting: Wilbour Wolfe Island, across from Kingston. Ahhh..used to go there later 80's for the tableside service...Caesar salad...Steak Diana. Older Eastern European couple used to own it...My fondest memory was walking out of there one morning...and parked on the street .....top down..sparking wires..red wall tires...was a 1967 Jaguar E-Type I love my wife....I truly do...but this was LUST!!!!!