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creeky
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2016 06:03pm
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Cruising the sailboat forum I noticed that on page 300 of the "using lithium as housebank" topic someone has posted a complete diagram of their paralleled lithium pack.
this should be of interest to anyone contemplating a full time solar system. Page 301 has an equipment list also.
Also of interest: 3xe has GBS lithium cells 400ah on sale for $440 bucks US shipping from China.
That would make for an under $2k 12v battery bank with 5kw of storage. Great deal for someone handy with electrical.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2016 06:47pm
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The thing that concerns me with the batteries is ... there's China, and then there's China. Some Chinese factories are excellent and have put time and money into engineering their products. Others rip off their work and re-produce a similar product at a cheaper cost by using lower-quality components. I'm not sure how we can know what we're getting. Is there a way or resource to find out?
I'm hiring a solar contractor who is very well-regarded and states on his website that he'll only install products that meet certain standards and certifications (can't remember his wording). That helps. I hope it doesn't mean he's not open to new technologies. I don't think it does.  We've got to find the balance.
I haven't talked with him about lithium yet. I'm focusing on the nuts and bolts of cabin construction at the moment because my electrical needs will be fairly simple, especially for him. And it seems like almost every day we're finding new info and products either available or in the pipeline. It's both exciting and a bit disconcerting!
Getting back to China and China, when I was shopping for my portable washer, I was very close to buying one that had an old, reliable American brand name. I was puzzled, though, why, when I was looking at it, it had hundreds of rave reviews, then it went unavailable for a time, and then it came back with far fewer reviews and they were mixed. It turned out that a Chinese company bought the name and put it on their product, the same machine with a few different names that was notorious for leaking, bad or no customer service, and great difficulty finding parts and repair. A reviewer pointed all of this out, wrote "compare this 'brand' of machine with these -- they're the same. The American brand doesn't exist anymore." He was right. I ran away. Bought a different Asian brand that DOES have a good reputation. I've owned a few of their products.
I wish American and Canadian companies would get more involved in battery storage development and sales.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2016 08:21pm
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After buying sundry electronic parts, flashlights, Li-ion cells and a few other things direct from China I now draw my personal line at items that cost less than $50. Some of the Chinese sellers are very good to deal with, prompt shipping, reasonable to deal with when problems arise. Others are the devil itself.
With something like a GBS or Winston cell I would not be too concerned about the quality of the cells... these aren't yet popular enough to be counterfeited. At least not that I have heard of so far. The same can not be said for cylindrical lithium cells.
The 1 to 2 month time frame bothers me. That could be problematic if they charge you at time of order. You could run out of time from an early billing date if there was any need to dispute a credit card charge because of non delivery, faulty product, etc.
The GBS litium prismatics seem a fair price, but the site doesn't even offer a guesstimate freight calculator. A 200 Ah cell is $220 there and $370 at elitepower in AZ. From China there will be an import duty, but I believe that is less than 4%. No idea if the prismatic lithium cells require special freight handling like the cylindrical cells do.
Creeky, if you bite on those, keep us informed.
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2016 10:22pm
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What about those salt water based batteries?
http://www.solarpanelsplus.com/solar-battery/
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2016 10:54am
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Rockies, those batteries have been discussed before. They are not a good solution (ha!) for off grid. Low charge/discharge rates is the primary problem.
Julie2. Do you mind sharing the name of the washer you bought. My Haier uses a lot more than 12 gallons a full wash. More like 35. So, while summer time I have lots of water, in the winter I use the local laundromat. 12 gallon wash would give me a bit of a break on some items.
MtnDon. Will do. I'm just starting the process. I'm looking to go sans (er, that's french for without) BMS. Maybe. We'll see. I have all summer to set up the batteries. And a lot of users are stating that after an initial balance they've been good for years.
Without bms seems better suited to solar charging as well.
Sadly my lead acid batteries continue to perform as poorly as they ever have. So do I need to change them. No. Do I want the better performance/discharge flexibility of a better power pack. Oh ya.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2016 03:05pm
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creeky
Actually, I bought a Haier! Dang, so it uses a lot more than the 12 gallons stated, eh? Great. Even on the quick wash? Which one do you have? I bought the 1.5 cu. ft. model. I'm going to play with water levels because you can set them and not go with the default. From using my front loader all of these years, I've realized that a washer doesn't have to fill up to get clothes clean.
Incidentally, you're not the helpful reviewer on Amazon who posted the energy use readings, complete with charts, from his inverter, are you? 
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2016 03:08pm
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MtnDon
Good advice. Thanks!
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 5 Feb 2016 11:05pm
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Creeky, what is the problem with low charge/discharge rates?
I was reading their info and they seem to be saying that the power can be drained down to almost nothing without any problem to the battery (unlike lead acid batteries) and these batteries can be used in cold weather.
Are you talking about the time it takes to charge them?
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creeky
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# Posted: 6 Feb 2016 02:56pm
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rockies: It goes both ways. If you're charging from solar you want fast as the sun don't shine all day. Nor necessarily at all. Today I've charged my batteries with bright cloud. Good for the salt water battery (aquion). But some days you get a few hours of good sun and then heavy cloud. Not good for the aquion.
Also, think of your power use. Motor start up on fridge? High surge draw. Microwave? Induction cook top? Dishwasher? Smoothie maker? All are high draw appliances.
Then the low discharge amperage on the aquion is a poor fit.
I hope the batteries get better. But right now I'm not a fan. The reason I like lithium is that they handle real life loads exceptionally well. Even lead acid is a bit sluggish. Look at LA voltage levels under heavy load. They drop a lot. With lithium you're charged at 12.8. you run a heavy load, you may not even see a voltage drop. Plus, no peukert effect (which basically means that the higher amps you draw the fewer amps you get out of the battery. With lead acid high amp loads waste power ... heat dispersion) etc.
Right now. Imho. Lithium is the best off grid solution. Lifetime. Performance. Maintenance. By far the best results across the board. The lifespan cost is also lower than other solutions. (Higher initial price, lower lifetime cost).
Julie2. Yup. The Haier is great. What a great review that fellow did. I don't know that I'm seeing the 800 watt spikes that he sees. I do mostly "medium" loads as you can really put a lot in a medium load. So that's 9.5 gallons per wash, rinse, rinse or 28.5 gallons per load.
Still. It's a great little washer. Does an amazing job. And the spin dry freaked me out when I first saw it. I have washed sheets in the afternoon and then hung on the line to dry. Then put on the bed in the evening. Stuff comes out really dry.
He is inaccurate in one thing. He says the washer used 42 watt hours. It actually used 42 watts. Over a 24 minute period. Persnickity!
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