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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 11 Jun 2015 08:31am
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Yay! This is really good news!!! I think I'm going to keep my solar simple until this is widely available!
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/06/10/tesla-powerwall-upgrade/28780485/
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creeky
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# Posted: 11 Jun 2015 09:32am - Edited by: creeky
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um. according to the article they're doubling output not storage. the battery remains at 7kw. but you can draw 7kw vs the previous 3.3 peak.
so you can now drain the battery in under an hour worry free!
don't forget balqon has batteries ready to go today. and in future news, keep an eye on Mercedes. They've announced a Lithium home battery "coming soon" also.
According to some recent reports solar is considered stable now. So putting in your full system is not a bad idea. Tho you may pay a small amount more for your lithium battery.
The 7kw tesla will set you back 4k installed when they are available. Meanwhile a 9 kw balqon is 4.5k. so over the 10 year life you pay an extra 50 bucks a year. or 4 dollars a month. but you get it now and an extra 2kws to boot.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 11 Jun 2015 02:12pm
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I bet 2-3 years from now the prices will be a lot lower. Early adopters always pay a premium. Doesn't help Julie who is setting up a system now. Such is life in an era of radical change.
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groingo
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# Posted: 11 Jun 2015 02:51pm
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I gave up hunting for the lowest price long ago, I look for a specific item to do a specific job and my reward is not so much financial but the fact that it meets my needs....that is what is most important, now the real challenge is finding products that actually deliver on their promises regardless of price.
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creeky
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# Posted: 11 Jun 2015 04:31pm
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groingo I think you hit the nail on the head there. it's about the system doing what you need it to.
as for early adopter. Um. Google lifepo4 sailboat. there's a thread on one of the boating forums. it's on page 303 last time I looked and was started in 2010. Those were the early adopters.
Still, say prices do drop. Over 3 years, the battery price drops and you spend an extra 1,000. amortized over the 10 year life span that's, um, not even .15 cents a day. big whoop.
VS. 3 extra years of having a fridge. A dishwasher. even a stovetop.* Lights. Pumps. And having saved how much by having food stay fresh longer, cold drinks and frozen stuff for when you needed it? Especially cold drinks!
Plus. I got a deal on steaks. I'm set for the summer now and that will save me many pennies a day. (Okay. I had to run into a field and tackle a cow while the farmer wasn't looking, but.) Doesn't happen if I can't put the steaks into the freezer.
(I do find myself still washing my hands)
The thing about Lithium batteries is they reduce the real cost: factoring in overhead and the cost of maintenance. Available now. Very affordable.
I pity the poor fool who buys lead acid today. (unless it's a small occasional use system ... ).
And I would really hesitate before telling someone not to invest in solar who was planning to live off grid full time. Any potential future savings is more than likely illusory over the amortized life span.
*I have an auzzie acquaintance that uses an induction electric stove top over propane. because with lithium you don't have to worry about leaving your batteries partially discharged or deeper discharges.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 12 Jun 2015 04:15am
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Thanks, all! You've given me some things to think about!
And this is when it gets a bit philosophical, as well as practical and financial. Do I want a full range of electric appliances and such in the cabin or do I want to live more simply? What is my actual usage going to turn out to be, and should I spend a bit of time living the life and finding that out?
Maybe! I don't know. Non-negotiables are the simple pump for my cistern/plumbing, the small freezer, an LED light in the kitchen and near the stairs, the combo LED light/fan in the bathroom, a couple of hours of TV daily to watch the news and a movie sometimes, and charging my laptop. That's it. I'm not sure what that will add up to definitively but I have an idea. I'm also not sure how many hours of really good sun I'll have on average, but I have an idea.
What I do know is that if I load up on kilowatts, I'll load up on electric stuff to use them, lol. Just like when I moved into my current house and marveled at how much storage space there is and how I'd never fill it! Ha, famous last words! I don't think I want to do that, at least not now.
Starting smaller, getting used to solar, and figuring out my needs might be a good thing to do in the beginning so I don't overbuy. I could always use the smaller batteries later with small panels as dedicated power sources for some outdoor LED lights and such if/when I change to larger batts.
And, yeah, as bldginsp says, there's likely going to be a decent savings 2 years from now. Maybe more players in the game with interesting options, too, even sooner.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 12 Jun 2015 05:26pm
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It's too bad that it's just so difficult to incorporate components from a small system you buy today into a larger system you might get later. The inverter will be too small, ditto charge controller, and you just can't add new batteries to old ones for a larger bank. Like you said you could use that small system separately from your new larger one for separate purposes but that's impractical. I agree with Groingo- get what you really need today and make good use of it. When it comes time to replace it, the parts will hopefully be cheaper
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 13 Jun 2015 05:23am
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True, bldginsp. I guess this is the dilemma to have. Amazing to think that just a year ago, the question was how many of those heavy deep cell batteries one would need, how to hook them up in the bank, and how to maintain them to make them last 5 years!!!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 13 Jun 2015 10:08pm
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At some point someone will come up with a workable capacitor-type elec energy storage gadget, then we will think of all these lead acid and lithium batteries the same way we now think of the crank on the front of a Model T.
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groingo
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2015 12:54am
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I have gotten spoiled I guess, I live comfortably at 150 watts a day average, now with the longer days I am also running a power surplus of at least 80% so life is quite good, the other day I actually splurged and used a small food processor for the cats food!
I know the paradox, you have come so far and to go backwards just doesn't feel right, you'll know when you have really made it when you see people wasting and it just ticks you off but then you can feel sorry for the poor schmucks, if only they knew what it's like to be truly free!
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Gary O
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2015 08:20am
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This thread, and a few others on this site, give me the conviction to hang tough and wait.
I may still shell out a few hundred bucks for the little HFT pkg just to play with some solar, but you guys are right on with waiting a bit.
Like any new product, those that spring for it now will pay some ridiculous prices, and the product will have some bugs.
We bought a 27" flat screen TV (1080p) back in 2005.
Paid over $1000.
One nanosecond after we walked outta the store the things dropped like a rock and grew to the size of yer wall...aaand they removed the three sandbags that were weighing it down.
I'll wait for the competition to drive the prices down, and for the eggheads to get the kinks out....and it's coming.
For now, we'll contend with the hum of our genny and pour gas into it every 5 hrs.
Please keep the unbiased updates coming.
It's what makes this sight so intriguing.
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creeky
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2015 08:29am
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couple of good points here. but i planned for system expansion. I put in the mnpv6 instead of the 3 combiner box for instance. that way when I put in the second solar controller I was all set.
also. your solar controller can easily be oversized. doesn't cost much more. um. pizza dude just did that. he has 300 watts solar panels on an mppt60. so he can triple his solar without having to do any extra wiring (assuming his linking wires are appropriately sized).
and the lovely thing about Lithium (staying in the realm of what is real) is that you can add to the battery pack at any time and you don't get the pull down effect that lead acid batteries experience. so in three years you want more power. add another battery pack.
as for the inverter. well yes. there is the rub. however. if you wire for two circuits and put both of them on the one inverter (like I did). when it comes time to expand you simply add another inverter by separating the two feed lines. Now one inverter is running each circuit.
ta-da!
Groingo. I ran the dishwasher yesterday (extra hot cycle) after charging my batts from after a day with heavy rain. 5960 watts. Hee heeeee. I luvs me mah solar. I do so enjoy that "free" power in the afternoon when you can run any old thing.
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creeky
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2015 10:40am
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gary o. no offense. but if you calculate the cost of your gas. you could buy a solar system.... twice just in the first 5 years. hear me out.
Now, I'm guessing storage costs will fall.
but solar panels have not gone to .25/w. they've stabilized around .75. which, when you think of what you can do with 1kw of panels. how long does it take to spend 750 bucks on gas for your genny (what 2 gal/day @ 2.50 x 365 = 1825). vs 25 years of solar production. right there you've paid for your solar panels in less than 6 months of gas.
and having a real fridge? propane savings. what about a clothes washer. i'm pretty sure cabin is goin' to start crabbin' about doing laundry in a five gallon bucket ... lol. ima guessin' it's just after the first set of blisters break.
solar controller prices are actually up.
solar inverter prices are too. (tho the new european models have brought reliability and smarter better everything).
still my solar amortization is now 100 dollars a month on my initial investment. no propane to haul. no genny to run. if I compare that 5 year span to your gas costs alone (1825x5=9125). I'm now up 4000 bucks not including propane (1.25/day over 2.25 years now) and have saved 1000 bucks in propane since getting the electric fridge. if i'd got it 5 years ago it would be over 2000 bucks in propane savings.
as i've said for many years. solar is easy. it makes great economic sense. and it's fun.
and hey. if groingo and i can figger it out. how hard can it be. well. obviously very hard. as groingo and I have exceptional thinkin' skills.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2015 06:31pm
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Quoting: creeky as i've said for many years. solar is easy. it makes great economic sense. and it's fun.
Like rocket surgery. it's only 'easy' if you know how.
But, yeah, I'm witcha, but waiting for more than one reason.
I've got a pump to install, a pump house/laundry facility/sauna to build, an addition to add on and install a stove, and a shop to build...before winter sets in.
Even though I'm dropping weight like no tomorrow, I can only spread myself so thin.
You, groingo, Mtn Don, and a few others amaze me....aaand I'll follow, it only makes sense....next summer...if that technology will settle down a bit
luv ya man
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 11:12am
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peace and love my brother.
(wanna bet our ol' hippy talk is giving the youngun's the willies?)
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