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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 31 May 2015 11:54pm
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OK, since I have WAY too much time on my hands these days, I've been thinking about how best to prioritize my solar panel output while I wait for the Tesla Powerwall to be widely available and accessible to us off-gridders.
The biggest power user for me would be the refrigerator. And I started to think, is that my best use of valuable watts? Honestly, a chest freezer would be more important to have so that I can buy food in bulk and freeze it, minimizing trips to the grocery store, especially when the weather is bad. And the chest freezers I'm looking at use as little as 180 KwH/year. Or about 500 watts/day. Less than a small, energy-efficient fridge.
So I thought, wouldn't it be cool to have an old-fashioned ice box? I'll have the freezer to make blocks of ice! And, hey, good-quality coolers keep ice frozen outside for several days so why couldn't I jerryrig a large cooler into a fridge of sorts?
I looked at those "party coolers" for patios that are on stands but, in reading the reviews, I found that they're more about convenience and appearance than great cooling. But I've also found projects from people who have made their own by buying a good-quality cooler and then building an attractive box and stand for it.
Couldn't we SO do that for an indoor "icebox?" My idea is to get some racks like I have for cooling baked goods (wire with a plastic covering) to install on each side and along the back of the inside of the cooler, allowing about a 2-inch space between the rack and the sides of the cooler. I could then make forms for ice blocks that side to fit in the spaces and provide the cooling. The racks would keep the ice from making the ice box contents wet/soggy. Another rack on the bottom would elevate the contents away from the melted ice. The water would easily be drained from the cooler drain into a bucket.
Putting the ice on the side would allow it to be replaced easily without having to move food and beverages around. And having the cooler inside of an elevated wooden box with a lid, it would make it more like a cabinet and not take up counter space or necessitate bending.
What do you all think? Any suggestions/problems/improvements?
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groingo
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 12:54am
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The old take a chest freezer then put a thermostatic controller on it to save power is a good start.
I did something similar with my fridge which did greatly reduce its run times and I compartmentalized it inside, I reduced the area inside with styrofoam insulators to reduce the area it needed to cool based on how much food you have, but the biggest problem remained and that is the fridge has a hard start compressor which starts out pulling 225 watts and in a couple minutes tapers down to 45 watts....problem is the thing cycles a lot even with a lot of added insulation.
The moderator should pin this because I think we are all in the same boat on this one....we need a real world working solution.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 01:13am
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Yeah, it's a problem-solver!
I'd love to have both a small fridge AND a separate chest freezer but I can't so I have to prioritize. I've decided that the freezer is more important for living in a remote area and on a mountain, and I've found chest freezers that use about 400 fewer watts per day on average than small fridges do. I'm going to buy a 5 cu. ft. one because it will likely be more energy-efficient if it's kept reasonably full than buying a bigger one that won't be.
So a good Coleman cooler in a cabinet with improvised sections for ice blocks seems the best way to keep my dairy, beverages, and leftovers cool and safe. Who knows, it may work so well that I might decide I don't need a fridge, even with the Powerwall!
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soundandfurycabin
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 03:38am
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Is the idea to save energy? Unless you build your own cooler, I suspect it won't be as well-insulated as a good modern fridge. As a result it will lose cool faster through the walls, not to mention all the cool melt water being drained off. Depending on the compressor efficiencies, you will likely end up using more energy to freeze the ice than it would take to just run a regular small fridge.
In the winter though, assuming you are in a cold enough climate, you could put your water outside and freeze it for free.
One thing to keep in mind with the fridge to chest freezer comparison is that the energy ratings are based on very different use patterns. I don't know the details of the testing procedures, but they are intended to mimic real-life use by typical households. The fridge might be opened a couple dozen times a day with warm food placed inside, while the freezer might be opened only once or twice. Chest freezers do typically have more insulation, so as groingo said, some people convert them into very efficient fridges.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 09:22am - Edited by: Steve_S
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A tip I was given by a local old timer, which made sense but I never tried was that as a freezer empties out, put buckets of water in the empty space. The rationale given was, that once the water is frozen, it will help maintain the cold in the freezer while reducing dead space which warms / cools faster than solid ice.
Seems reasonable to me but it would be interesting to see some type of logging for the compressor runtime between an empty, partially empty and full freezer.
Some of the new "Apartment Sized" freezers are amazingly efficient.
Danby Chest Freezer DCF096A1WDD1 | 9.60 cu. ft is rated at 206 kWh per year.
Danby Upright Freezer DUFM085A2WP1 | 8.50 cu. ft. is rated at 247 kWh per year.
I highlighted Danby as my fridge is from them and I am very pleased with it, it also only uses 300 kWh per year. The Chest freezer being a bit bigger still uses less power than an upright model.
I did once try to add insulation around an old 18' boat anchor and thought I left enough space for the compressor venting & cooling but someone (my ex) shoved it back tight against the wall... well it died three months later as the compressor burned out, lack of venting. The lesson from that is make sure you have enough venting etc for the compressor and if there are any coils that they are clear.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 10:43am
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Here's a picture of what I mean by building an "ice box." This just has a cooler inside of it!
You disassemble the cooler -- take off the handles and lid, build the frame with the legs and base, and place the cooler inside of it. {I'd consider putting a layer of foam insulation between the cooler and the wood.) Then build the box around it, cutting out a hole where the drain is. I've seen some with a brass spigot attached to a short piece of pipe in the drain hole.
A wood cover is built around the cooler lid and attached to the box with hinges, making sure the lid closes securely. Some sort of handle is attached -- a thick section of rope, pull chain, regular handle, whatever you want.
Presto! Cooler stand/ice box with no electricity needed! Attractive enough for the kitchen, too.
I would buy a high-quality cooler to keep in the "cool" longer. Larger cooler than the one shown, too. 
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 10:49am
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soundandfury,
Yeah, I need to save energy initially until I go whole hog with solar, lol. I'm NOT mechanically inclined at all to be able to modify units! So if I have to choose one food preservation appliance to buy, the little freezer wins.
I just need something else non-electrical and fairly simple to keep things like dairy products and leftovers cold. So, I think the cooler box will fit the bill. Put some blocks of ice in it every 3 or 4 days and it's all good. I hope.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 10:57am
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Personally I would have to have some real world proof complete with logged power use data before I will believe that using a freezer to make ice that would then be used to keep food cool actually saved energy. As soundandfury mentioned the test procedures for fridges and freezers probably are different. Placing water in the freezer every day or so is not likely seen as normal freezer use.
Adding exterior insulation to a freezer is not possible with the modern day units I have seen. The condenser coils are under the metal skin, usually the sides and the top feel quite warm to the touch when in operation.
I believe one of the big reasons that converting a chest freezer to a fridge saves electricity is because of the chest design. That keeps the cold from spilling to the floor as with a vertical unit. There is no magic that makes the freezer compressor more efficient.
As for using ice in a cooler / fridge I think better use is made of the cold if the water is not drained off. Use plastic jugs to freeze. Leave some room for expansion. The ice melts and you retain the water in the jug. When it's time to refreeze the freezer doesn't have to work so hard if the water is already cold.
FWIW, one of the distributors of Servel propane fridges has told me that they have seen a reduction in propane consumption on those fridges when a latch that clamps down on the door gasket is used instead of simply relying on the magnets that all fridges use these days.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 11:02am
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Steve S,
Yeah, I was looking at the Danby fridges. And once I get the Powerwall, I may buy one if I'm brimming with extra solar power!
I read somewhere that fridges and freezers operate optimally and use less electricity when they're full. That would make sense, I guess, because the cold items together keep the inside of the box cold and at the right temperature so the thermostat won't trigger as much. I'll try the water bucket trick if necessary!
I found an Igloo chest freezer, I believe, listed at 173 kWh per year. That's just awesome! Being on a mountain, 20 miles from a grocery store, with the potential for snowstorms and mud making travel problematic, I think it's important to have a well-stocked freezer and pantry. More so than a lot of refrigerator space.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 11:28am
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MtnDon,
How ARE the propane fridges? I've read reviews of them that were just awful so I moved along. Have they improved?
My parents kept an old Frigidaire fridge in the garage for beverages. That thing was ANCIENT and so, so basic but it wouldn't quit. And it had this huge, almost claw-like latch/handle on it that took some effort to open. My mom said that's why it kept the beverages so cold!
Oh, making ice is the least of my freezer tasks and, yeah, 7 months out of the year, I can just stick some water in containers outside at night, lol. I need the freezer to stock up on and preserve meat and veggies, even bread, soups and casseroles. I like to cook big and then freeze portions for later.
Fridges the size that we can run off-grid have woefully tiny freezer compartments. It would almost be better if they'd leave them off completely if it would save energy!
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 12:36pm
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Here you go - this is basically what I think you're trying to accomplish Julie. This fellow has some pretty clever ideas, this being one of them. Provided you can still use your chest freezer to freeze blocks of ice semi-occasionally during the warmer months, you could make this work. During the colder months, he simply cracks the vent at the back to maintain temperature in his "ice box":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w68z-YJvei4&index=33&list=UUItDmit6Yy5-hazNSdoDYuA
He posts an update to its performance later:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ4M2_pbR-s&index=23&list=UUItDmit6Yy5-hazNSdoDYuA
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 01:19pm
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That's excellent, Cold Flame! Yep, the same principles! If I had a bigger cabin like his, I'd love to do exactly that! I enjoyed watching those videos and subscribed to his channel. Thanks so much for posting them!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 01:28pm
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon How ARE the propane fridges? I've read reviews of them that were just awful so I moved along. Have they improved?
Other than the fact they use propane I have no problems with them. What sort of "awfulness" are you referring to?
Ours is smallish at 8.1 cu ft but has a reasonable size freezer. (Google Servel / Dometic 400). Some larger propane fridges are less capable at dropping the temperature inside their larger box. That stems from the fact that the absorption refrigeration component is virtually the same as in the smaller Servel / Dometic box. Makes sense that it has trouble at times keeping a larger box cool.
Ours went into service in 2008. I have a friend who has two of them since about 2001.
My personal opinion is the propane fridges are better suited to off grid part time seasonal use, as with our recreational cabin. But for full time off grid use a modern electric Energy Star fridge along with a suitable amount of PV is better in the long run. If I was doing this all over again today I might even consider doing electric for part time use. Today's PV prices are only about 25% of what they were in '08 and an excellent 120 VAC electric fridge is a real deal too. The newest high efficiency AC voltage fridges are not available in this country at this time in small sizes. Look for a fridge with inverter technology. They do not have any start up spike. Samsung and LG are two of the players but only have made them available in other countries; Mexico and overseas, in the smaller sizes.
this Samsung is about 13 cu ft which I consider small, but is almost big in Europe and Asia
explanation of inverter fridges
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 01:43pm
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon That's excellent, Cold Flame! Yep, the same principles! If I had a bigger cabin like his, I'd love to do exactly that! I enjoyed watching those videos and subscribed to his channel. Thanks so much for posting them!
I really enjoy his videos as well. He's begun posting less frequently over the last year or so, but he takes a lot of time to create the ones he does make and I enjoy them immensely. He seems like a very genuine person, and he has some great ideas (and beautiful properties!)
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hattie
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 01:59pm
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If I were you I'd put in a cold cellar. They are amazing. They won't keep meat frozen but they are quite cool. There is an article on Mother Earth News you might find interesting: http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/food-without-refrigeration-zmaz75jazgoe.aspx ?PageId=1#ArticleContent
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smallworks
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 04:42pm
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Well, here's ours. (It's on another thread here somewhere). Inside is a 12" planter from the dollar store; we fill it with ice and lay the food, beer etc on top of it. When closed, the box works as a table top.
Though small, it works great.
I'm glad to hear you're on your way..
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Martian
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# Posted: 1 Jun 2015 09:48pm - Edited by: Martian
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I used to build ice-boxes for boats. My technique was to use water based contact cement and attach aluminium foil to sheets of 1/2" pink foam board. The sheets were then cut to fit the space and layered to at least 4" thick. Make sure the corners overlap on each layer. The inside was fiberglassed with epoxy resin.
Once the box is cooled down, ice lasted a long time. Most would eventually get 12VDC refrigeration units and used around 50 amps/day.
Tom
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2015 05:00am
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Hattie, we used to call those root cellars and I've long been thinking about how nice it would be to have one, once I get some fruit trees and veggies going! I was half-considering turning one of those unsightly site review "test pits" into the beginnings of a root cellar since the things are already quite big and deep! 
So many great ideas posted!!! Thanks so much, everyone!
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2015 06:06am - Edited by: turkeyhunter
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon I would buy a high-quality cooler to keep in the "cool" longer. Larger cooler than the one shown, too.
I have a 50 QT. and a 65 QT. Yeti Cooler and I in the process of buying another for my hunting /fishing/outdoor trips.....look at these for your cooler needs.
http://yeticoolers.com/
or if your going on a low cost --buy a 5 day Coleman Cooler.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Coleman-70-Quart-Xtreme-Cooler/4807332
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2015 08:47am
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Here is something a buddy of mine sent me, he said they were like what Honda is to generators, they are to fridge/freezers. No propane, just 110VAC or 12VDC
http://store.arbusa.com/Fridges-C11.aspx
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2015 11:22am
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@Toyota - I have one of the ARB Fridge/Freezers. They're incredible and super efficient. But, they are very expensive. Engel also makes a similar unit. In fact, the older generation ARB fridge/freezers were rebadged Engel units.
I will 100% stand by the performance and durability of mine, coupled with how little energy it draws. It really is incredible... A quote from their website, "All sized models are able to maintain sub-freezing temperatures in 90° F heat, while only drawing 0.87 amps per hour (50QT model) from a 12 volt power source."
Here is the other brand's website:
http://www.engelcoolers.com/fridge-freezers
It's a pretty neat thing to surprise friends/family/kids when camping after 3-4 days out in the bush (no hookups) to be able to bring out ice cream as a surprise.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2015 05:01pm
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Good to hear coldflame. I am looking into this unit for my cabin. I can use the 110V and then it would keep itself cool when the gennie isnt running with its own ice and insulation.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2015 06:47pm
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That's really cool! (Pun intended, lol). I see that it's solar-compatible, too. It sounds like it's intended for recreational use so does anyone know how it holds up running 24/7?
At this point, it wouldn't be in the budget because of its steep pricetag and my additional need for a lot more freezer space. But if the house sells well ...
Smallworks, I love your table cooler! I'm big-time up for dual uses! Is that pink area insulation? If so, about how much did you use, and what type?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2015 07:52pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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The DC fridges like the Engel, ARB, Waeco and others that look like coolers use the same Danfoss BD compressor as the larger fridges like Novacool and Truckfridge models with doors that open like a regular home refrigerator. Those Danfoss compressors have been used for decades in boats. They will operate for years without any issues. Danfoss is also very big in commercial refrigeration. Worldwide, founded in Denmark a way back.
They are not all created equal even though they are based of the same compressor and control box. Part of what makes one more efficient than another is in the condenser design. Some get rid of the heat better than others.
As Martian mentioned you can buy a refrigeration unit, compressor/motor, control box plys evaporator and condenser and install it in a home made "ice box" enclosure. Lots of money.
We have a 4.2 cu ft (130 litre) Truckfridge in our trailer. It works well.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2015 08:11pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Oh, another thought.... one of the things that also helps make a converted chest freezer more efficient than a regular refrigerator is the lack of the auto defrost system. Auto defrost in a regular refrigerator can actually use a lot of energy.
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cabingal3
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2015 09:04pm
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we put an ice chest on two stumps...
we put blocks of ice inside...its in the shade.
works great.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 3 Jun 2015 12:25am
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Thanks, MtnDon!
Cabingal3, that's awesome! On this front and because I'm wondering, just in general, since I'm south of you -- do you have bears, cougars, other large wildlife around your cabin?
This is a great discussion because there are so many good suggestions and options for everyone's consideration, I think! It's especially important for those of us who are/will be off-the-grid full-timers.
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cabingal3
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# Posted: 3 Jun 2015 05:49am
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Yes we do Julie !!
I bungee it closed!
So far no problem!
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hattie
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2015 12:12pm
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Quoting: cabingal3 I bungee it closed!
Hi cabingal3 - I'm glad you haven't had any problems with wildlife, but maybe you should consider hanging your cooler on a rope between two trees. Most animals have a really keen sense of smell and even though you have your cooler bungeed closed, that will not pose a problem to them and they will smell the food inside. Where we live, people have kept food in outdoor metal sheds and bears have destroyed the shed to get at the food. We also had a cooler between two trees (that were 10 feet apart) at our camp. The cooler was hung 15 feet in the air. It took a bear a couple of years, but he finally figured out how to swing out and knock it down. They are very clever and resourceful when it comes to food.
Since it is spring and natural food is abundant, they have easier pickings, but as soon as the fall comes around and there isn't as much food in the bush, they will come looking for human caches.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 5 Jun 2015 12:25am - Edited by: Julie2Oregon
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Yes, Hattie's good points indicate part of why I asked! I've read all sorts of tips about living in rural/remote areas on some official Oregon websites, including how to prevent or at least discourage large animal visitations! Some things I NEVER would have considered, such as "don't burn yummy-scented candles near open windows" because that will attract bears. Scents like vanilla, baked goods, pumpkin, fruit, anything "tasty." Makes sense, wouldn't have occurred to me!
The other part is I was wondering what you might be living among and seeing! I know mule deer will be about in my area since they have a winter feeding area nearby. Bobcats are very common, as are elk. Bears and cougars are possible. The reintroduced wolves are nearby -- not exactly sure where!
I was looking at coolers yesterday and a "high end," 100-quart Coleman will do nicely! I'm afraid that the Yeti coolers are out of my price range for the size I need, Turkeyhunter! The cooler will be indoors and inside of a fitted wooden box so a Coleman will be fine. I'll buy one of the line that keeps ice frozen for 7 days and has the anti-microbial treatment.
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