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spencerin
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 06:59pm
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I'm wondering why this would not work. It obviously must not, but my physics days are years behind me, so I need someone to explain why not -
You have a large water wheel with a large gear or other pulley-type mechanism which powers (via chain, rope, etc.) a generator with a much smaller gear or other pulley-type mechanism which charges a battery. The large water wheel has a mechanical advantage, so it should not have a problem getting RPMs into the generator to charge the battery. You use the power from the battery to power a pump that pumps enough water from the bottom to the top to keep the wheel going.....and there you have it. The design would be such that there would be "excess" power (i.e. more power being generated than is being used by the pump) to charge other batteries, so you would effectively have a self-contained charging system that would work 24/7.
I know there would be some energy loss throughout the system, but if you have a large enough water wheel and a very efficient generator and pump, once you get the wheel going, why would this not work?
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LastOutlaw
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 07:26pm
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perpetual motion machine
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 07:30pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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IF this was possible don't you think we'd all have one of these marvelous devices in our home and the power companies would all have gone out of business long ago?
Every time energy is transformed from one form to another there are losses. Friction in the large wheel to small gear mechanism. Losses from turning mechanical energy into electrical energy. More losses taking electrical energy and changing it to chemical energy (charging the battery). Then more losses pumping water with an electric motor and pump.
It has been shown that IF you have a surplus of PV solar electric power you can use that to pump water up to a reservoir and later use that to generate electrical power. But that does take a large body of water uphill to work. But self contained perpetual.... no.
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LastOutlaw
Member
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 07:35pm
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3000 Watt Generator Powers Itself, Grinder & Drill Press
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Just
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 07:39pm
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Many have tried , non with success .
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LastOutlaw
Member
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 07:42pm
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I looked into building my own hydro power system and from what I remember it took so much water pressure to make just a small amount of electricity that it just didn't seem worth the effort.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 08:08pm
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MtnDon,
Oh my, you're right! Gosh, like, seriously, I never thought about the power company, nor did I say anything about power loss.....
Possibility is one thing, practicality is another. People skills, MtnDon, people skills.....
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groingo
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 09:45pm
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I too have chased the hydro dream but had two major problems, my stream has a bad attitude (not stable flow) and long distance from stream to cabin (over 750 feet) which makes it impracticle, then last year I decided to take the leap into solar and haven't regretted it.
The key was to keep power requirements as low as possible and take baby steps, build the system as you gain experience, bottom line, my system is a small 400 watter but handles all of my power needs year round....no moving parts, simple technology and it works!
Smartest money I ever spent!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 11:48pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Sorry if I offended.
But there is no free lunch. Can't get more out than what is put in. Same rule applies with money as well as energy.
Here's something that is relative to the topic.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 02:09pm
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Somewhere on this site is a link to a pro water wheel builder who has worked out very carefully the gearing and motor efficiency. Can't remember the thread it was on. But his conclusion was that you must have a substantial water flow from a stream or wherever and a properly designed generator setup to make it at all feasible to charge batteries enough for home use. Big advantage is that a stream runs 24/7 unlike solar or wind, but you won't get much out of it without a careful design.
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groingo
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 02:32pm - Edited by: groingo
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Don't know where the link wound up but there are three critical things needed for water power, head or adequate stream flow, how much torque at what rpm's will the generator require and how much torque can your wheel produce at typically much less rpm's, once you have that then its a matter of gearing.
If like I understand you have inadequate flow, then you would need to pump water to the top of the wheel or cycle it in pretty much a closed loop which could take a lot of energy and there in is the rub, the pump will likely consume power faster than the batteries can store it.
True the books say it shouldn't be possible but there again as we have all learned, nothing is cast in stone, just look at nanotechnology, molecular blending and the list is endless.
In my world you never say it can't be done, you just look for different ways to achieve the same goal and my epiphany came in the form of solar power and it works pretty much out of the box, no guesswork, no hassles, simple effective and the best darn thing since whipped cream or Yogurt, but for Creeky's sake I won't go there.
In the end, unless you have very deep pockets and endless ambition, the solution is solar, otherwise you are chasing an untamed Ornathoid when you don't have too!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 02:36pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Why make it so complicated, get a DC motor, run a generator, which in turns, powers the motor. If you get rid of friction and heat, it will run on and on and on.... 
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LastOutlaw
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 04:24pm
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech get a DC motor, run a generator, which in turns, powers the motor.
Isn't that pretty much what this does?
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creeky
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 05:17pm
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might want to check the mythbusters episode on this idea.
epic faaiiilllllllll.
micro hydro is something i wish i could use. you build a head pond and then draw from that 24/7. some really amazing small systems available now.
still. can't complain. washed dishes in my dishwasher yesterday with electrons gathered from the sun. also charged my batteries. cooled my groceries. washed my laundry. lit my house. obtained information from around the world. visited with you'ze all.
and now i've got the bees buzzin' waiting for tomorrows Tesla announcement. if you go by the tests they set up. the battery cost 3300 for 10kw (8kw useable) over 10 years on lease.
holy hanna how fast would i put my money down on that.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 05:38pm - Edited by: groingo
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Creeky:
I too will be tuned into Tesla's announcement, Elon never dissapoints!
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 07:07pm
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i'm dreaming of $300 a kw/hr.
it's the final piece of the puzzle for sure.
insert silly statement of excitement here. smile.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 1 May 2015 03:08pm
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Here's the link to the guy that builds water wheel generators
http://www.waterwheelplace.com/water_wheel_electricity.html
Groingo- last time I chased an untamed ornithoid when I didn't have to, I ended up broke and in jail, while she was on a 1st class seat to Hawaii on my tab. In 6 months she worked thru 5 guys just like me, and apparently she's still at it. Now that's a perpetual motion machine.
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groingo
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# Posted: 1 May 2015 03:43pm
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bldginsp
Yaaah Babby!
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RedTailHawk
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# Posted: 15 May 2015 12:19pm
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if you have a nearby flowing water source, this might be what you are looking for: http://powerspout.com/
I haven't tried it yet, but I'm curious if anyone else has tried it. Seems easy enough to setup, but more concerned about keeping it secured during periodic flooding of the creek, and how long this equipment will last.
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 16 May 2015 11:25am
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Hmmm....had not thought about this as a power source but just realized it may work with right setup. I have a pond on 1.2 acre pond property. About 10 foot deep at the dam end and knee deep at the feeder stream end. In the winter especially stream is strong but not much slope. There is a drain pipe at the low point of pond that I crack open every winter. It's a 4 inch pipe and when open fully the pressure is amazing. If I reduced that down to 1/2 or 3/4 "nozzle" it would be really good. Since since it is open anyway during the winter wet season, might be good way to supplement solar on cloudy days. Even work most of summer on as need basis.
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RedTailHawk
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# Posted: 27 May 2015 12:35am - Edited by: RedTailHawk
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I have an underground system of PVC pipes that divert mountain runoff water to go under my driveway and yard to a small pond down the hill from my cabin. I believe there is a good water flow year round. I like the idea of a reducer to increase the water pressure. The problem is all the silt and debris that runs through this system (and ultimately ends up in my small pond). Before putting this PowerSpout on the bottom of this PVC drain, I'd need to figure out a way to "cleanse" or "filter" the water of all the silt, leaves, twigs, etc before it hit this device.
Any suggestions?
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Don_P
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# Posted: 27 May 2015 07:33am
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Settlement tank/basin somewhere in the system. Let the water slow or sit for a moment and the heavy stuff will drop out. from there you can filter if needed. It takes a fair amount of water or head to do much work.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 27 May 2015 08:49pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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I just saw this story pop up on drudge. It may have an affect later down the road.
Obama admin asserts dominion over creeks, streams, wetlands, ditches — even big puddles
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/may/27/obama-admin-asserts-dominion-over-cre eks-streams-w/
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