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Steve_S
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# Posted: 8 Nov 2014 10:01am
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Good Day folks...
Looking for thoughts, suggestions or opinions with experience.
Property Description:
(Year Round Primary Residence for 2 adults & Work Site)
We have our property on a south face of a ridge with good wind (9 of 10 days we have breeze) and good sun exposure. Located near Pembroke, Ontario, Canada.
We are building our 16x20 with loft Cabin at the moment which will serve for the next 2-3 years as "base" for our log work & site prep... Leading up to building a 25x25 Cordwood / Stackwall cabin.
We have our Water Well done (230' with reserve) and Pump House (6'x6' on frost protected / insulated slab) built with super-insulation (6" of foam). This houses an 85-gal Pressure Tank, the pump is a Grundfos SQ15 120v Soft-Start submersible. This will be heated & maintained to 40 deg F and will have one 10w LED Light in it. The building has 2 plugs wired to outside to allow for Gen-Set hookup + 2 underground 4" O-Pipes which lead to Cabin (1 for water, 1 for power lines).
The Current 16x20 Cabin will only have 4 120v circuits, 60amp box.
1) Lighting only - 12v LED strip & LED spots.
2) General Plugs (5) + a millivolt transformer to control the Majestic DVRT-36 Propane Fireplace.
3) 1 circuit for the "kitchen"
4) 1 CGFI Circuit for Bathroom & outside plug.
Cook-stove & Fireplace, Eccotemp FVI12-LP Tankless Water Heater = Propane.
The two biggest power drains will be the Water Pump which should not run much thanks to the pressure tank and the refrigerator which is a Dometic RM-660 Propane / 120v - 175w RV fridge. We are not sure if this will be final, or if will be hooked to propane.
The basic plan so far
Gen-Set:
1) Large Gas/Propane Generator for construction & backup. Champion 7200/9000 (have it) [this is seriously loud & HD] with this conversion kit 41552 Tri-Fuel kit
2) Lifan Energy Storm ESI 3600iER 3600 Watt Inverter Generator (getting it) not propane-able...
Panels: Thinking a 1.25 Kw panel array (dang compensations for Winter) - possibly 5-250 watters or 4-320 watters. (Ground Mounted preferred for snow clearing & re-aiming summer/winter)
MPPT Controller: capable of handling Gen-Set & Wind Turbine.
Wind Turbine: We are contemplating something along the lines of an Primus AIR 40 TURBINE or similar, suitable for Canadian Climate.
Batteries: UGHNESS !
Choices & options Lead Acid, AGM, Lithium... = Brain Pain !
This looks like a battery pack that I could sink my teeth into and should serve our needs + expandability if needed.
Lithium Battery Storage 9 kwhr
Everything is low power (except construction tools like Table Saw etc) but the Dewalt 20V cordless tools are used most.
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I have contacted many solar suppliers Alt-E in Cali to several in Canada and getting a straight answer from ANY of them is like pulling chickens teeth.
I have no aversion to Chinese Technologies - look at your Puter & Shoe Phone ! Like anything else there is good & bad products.
SUGGESTIONS, FEEDBACK, THOUGHTS & PONDERANCES are Welcomed & Requested.
Thanks in Advance folks.
Steve
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creeky
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# Posted: 9 Nov 2014 02:42pm
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gen set: I wouldn't bother with propane. gas starts in the deepest cold. ie. when you really need it. the dollars saved on conversion = gas in the tank. ditto #2. ... I'm not that far from you. you will need your genny for solar back up 2.5 months of the year. Each run will be 1/2 to 1 hr. (Max twice a day. Probably no more than 4 times a week. For the other 9.5 mo/yr you will be fine with solar. Beyond fine. An extra 1000 for a smaller genny hooked in full time is nice. So ... convenience. But it's also a lot of gas money for many years.
(fyi. Last year generator time cost me $50 in gas. ex. From Jan 01 2014 to April 01: ran the genny charger 4 times ($5?). April to Oct 15: 0 times ($0). In the 5 weeks since Oct 15, 3 times twice a day (twice for 1 hr per, once for .5 hr per) and 7 times once (1hr per). ($10 in gas? Dated 09/11/14).
Panels: Sounds good. More is better. Solar panels are cheap. I have two controllers and 1.5kw. Going to 2. Just cause.
Wind turbine: Double check on your wind maps. I know you get a "breeze" off the ridge. But Ontario wind maps show poor overall performance. Then factor maintenance/tower etc. Of course, if you run it "cloudy season" only ... it might be perfect. So. test and report. 
Batteries: Go lfp. Forget the leadites. I know it's new. But you will send me a case of beer for the next ten years for this suggestion. Btw. I'd prefer a bottle of tequila. And cheaper to ship. 
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Sadly the home diy off grid solar thing is full of salesmen (one solution every need) and leadites (solution of yesterday). Do your own research. Take everything, even me, with a grain of salt. And have fun.
It's not hard. I've said this many times. It really isn't. It's a lot of steps, sure. But once you're out there living off it, ever so rewarding. I say this as a guy who is still off grid full time after 5 years this Dec 18. Which, I would suggest, tugging my beard, makes me a phd in ogft.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2014 07:36am
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Hey Creeky,
On the Gen-Set, I wanted to go with propane on the Big Generator because once I'm done construction work for now, having it sit with gas that can sour so quickly now (darn ethanol) Propane is a good fuel. Just pop a cup of 94 in on the really cold days, to get it started & warmed up then flip to Propane.
The Little 3kw Inverter Generator would be more for re-charging batteries while providing sufficient juice to still run things adequately. Have the Remote Start & Low oil SHUT-OFF (surprisingly many only have "low oil warnings"). Also uses a lot less fuel.
We have been looking @ "kits" like this:
Dommel Valley - Solar Off-Grid Pkg 1500-48 3.6kWac
Alt-E - Off-Grid Residential package B - 1.12kW - Kyocera Modules
Or this one (which seems more like it)
Solar-Wholesaler CA - 1 Kilowatt Off-Grid Solar Home or Cabin Kit They also have a Great Deal on the Air-Turbines.
Had thought smaller along the lines of:
Off-Grid Cabin Package D - 560W - Kyocera Modules But the concern is Winter * reduced daylight.
I would certainly like to go with LFP for many reasons, it is mature tech (new in Solar Applications though) and Lithium Batteries have proven themselves over the years, especially in Military applications which there is little room for flubs.
BUDGET is the big concern, to get enough power to "run the show" and have enough reserve to get by on bad / blustery days.
I can't imagine that the Cabin will need much juice. The water pump likely won't cycle on very often as with an 85 Gal Pressure Tank there's a lot of water "up top" & ready.
The 3 big power hogs we have are - Water Pump, Fridge (not sure on that yet) and Computer, the rest is lighting and minimal. Not even sure I'll have a Nuke-alator in the cabin and with the small Wedgewood RV propane Stove / Oven that can handle most cooking needs nicely I think.
I have read a lot and researched a lot on Solar Systems and the info out there is vast but inconsistent and quite "opinionated". I'd like some Real Time, Real Person Experience information on what & doesn't work for them.
Money is getting tighter daily and the build must go on, or I am living in the snow come December.... which Certainly has NO APPEAL to me whatsoever.
Hence the small 3kw Inverter Gen, as I may have to rely on that a bit before I can get solar / wind in place. I was even contemplating a couple of Group 27 Pure Lead AGM Deep Cycle Battery, 3000 watt inverter from them and some sort of charger to charge the pair.
Where about's are you Creeky ? you say not far from me. Within the province or ?? (it's all relative eh, especially up here). What's your setup ??
Hey... That might make a good Message Thread... "What's your Off-Grid Power Setup".
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2014 01:14pm
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Quoting: Steve_S MPPT Controller: capable of handling Gen-Set & Wind Turbine.
Each source; PV, wind, hydro, generator needs it's very own charge controller / charger. MPPT makes sense for PV. Wind and hydro can use PWM but must have dump load capability. Generators charge through a battery charger or a combination inverter/charger.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2014 07:09pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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I believe propane makes an ideal fuel for a generator that sees only sporadic use. It really reduces the issues of forgetting to drain the carb bowl dry to head off the gumming problems. Stabilizers can help, but you still need to handle it and keep it in rotation if it doesn't get used up in several months / half year. I assume you will have a 200+ gallon on ground tank and truck to site delivery? Propane doesn't get you the same hours per gallon that gasoline does.
However I really dislike noisy generators. That after using them for many years on worksites with no grid power. I know carpenters who now refuse to work off generator power.
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Quoting: Steve_S Dometic RM-660 Propane / 120v - 175w RV fridge.
You do understand that when on 120 VAC (or 12 VDC if it was so equipped) a resistance heater element is the heat source that replaces the propane flame. The AC is going to be "on" more than it is off going by my past experience with RV absorption refrigerators. The AC option is nice when parked in a deluxe campground or the driveway at home. You might want to rethink using that on 120 VAC that comes from batteries.
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If you have been reading and researching you should know that before contemplating any particular piece of hardware you should do an honest as can be, energy use estimate. Without that everything is a guess, a hope and a prayer.
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Personal opinion on kits is they cost you extra most of the time. Start with the aforementioned energy analysis. Then you can pick your batteries and then the PV, to suit the climate/sun, and the other hardware.
And keep in mind that plans to grow a system later usually run into problems. IMO, it is best to get what you need up front; cheaper in the long run.
FWIW, IF there is much chance that you will have to depend on the generator for half or more of the recharging buy a good inverter / charger like an Outback. Good ones have a fully programmable charger with multiple stages. Outback inv/chgr are the only ones I know of that have a "soft ON" for when the generator is put online.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2014 08:11pm
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The Grundfoss looks like a very nice pump. Love the soft start. Any idea how long it will run in a typical day? That will be the main deciding factor in the size of the battery bank most likely. FLA's suffer voltage drop when running large loads for long intervals. That is one place where the LFP's shine; little voltage drop. Lower voltage into the inverter means it works harder; working harder = more heat.... in a never ending vicious circle.
I know some folks who use their generator to pump to a 500 gallon surface located cistern. Another who uses a 1000 gallon tank. They use a small on demand pump from there to the house. That saved on their battery bank size.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 10 Nov 2014 11:18pm
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Hey MtnDon
Great info there. I'll try to answer the questions as best as possible.
The Water Pump will feed an 85 Gal Pressure Tank, dialed in @ 41psi for the Eccotemp On-Demand water heater. Not likely it will will kick more than once or twice a day. I'm the only FT resident. So the shower will be the "Big Use"... I may get a Spin-Washer but not sure yet.
Propane will be coming from 2 100Lb Tanks + 2 20Lb tanks in reserve. If I go bigger tank, then there is service contracts and special installations and all that phooey. While I can plumb it myself and do the flaring etc... I'm hoping to find someone who does it for a living, don't need no chances / risks.
Didn't know that about the Dometic RV Fridge... darn shame... I'm not sure if it will work on propane as I am NOT going to cut holes in my walls to vent it. Something to ponder further.
My Hydro (power) usage current for a 3 Bedroom Townhouse with all the fixin's & extras is low & has been so. Scaling back as I am, my power use is minimal.
Current Bill shows as follows:
I average about 10.5 kWh/Day . My HEAVIEST was with a house full of folks and much goings on was 16 kWh/day. Even in June with A/C on was only 12.95 kWh/day
** Fridge from 1973, Stove from 1964, Old Inglis Dryer (240v) and newer GE Washer. Heat & Hot Water are Natural Gas.
System Expandability:
For now, I'd like Solar & Batteries with later adding a Wind Turbine. The Big Genny (with propane) as Heavy Backup plus to power construction tools but would prefer the little Lifan 3000 Watt Inverter Generator as it has remote start, low oil shut-off & 12v port which could charge batteries & run the 120v circuits. Would like to set it up more like an RV with the external 30A locking plug. ** Big Gen will sit in a "Dog-House" next to the pump house, This will protect it from Rain, Sn@w but be open enough to allow for natural cooling.
NOTE, there will be power lines running in one of the O-Pipes from Pump House to Cabin, likely 10/2 NMWU and also likely a Cat-6 UTP for temp monitoring etc...
At this point, I am unsure of putting the Solar Package in the cabin or in the Pump House which is 40' from cabin.
The PH has 6" of Blue Foam with 1" thermal break between the studs & sheathing. It's on a Frost Protected Slab with 5" of Blue Foam under that. 6'x6'x9'h @ peak. This MUST be heated to 40F to prevent freezing, was thinking of a small "Car Type Heater" that runs off 12v with thermostat. The Well Head comes up dead centre through the foam & concrete along with the 4" O-Pipes. The O-Pipes are buried 5' deep and are encased (boxed) in 24" wide 3" thick foam and sealed. [00]
I had pondered using 12v circuits, for lights and such but there are trade-offs. Also I am NOT going to cut holes in my walls for plugs, switches etc... I'm going surface mount in either light conduit or if I can get enough, BX / ROMEX wiring. Same for plumbing, only 2 holes - 1 for source in, 1 for grey water out.
I simply don't have an extra 10K for Solar, Wind and all the extras. It will have to be done in stages. After building this, I'll have zilch left in bank, nothing coming and just my pension to survive on, which thanks to our Government isn't much anymore. (ruckus, stuckus, frickus, fruckus)
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2014 01:21am
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Quoting: Steve_S Lifan 3000 Watt Inverter Generator ..... 12v port which could charge batteries
Usually the 12 VDC port on these little inverter generators is rather low powered. For example, I believe the 12 VDC on the Honda EU2000i is only 8 amps. Good enough for a small car battery, maybe. It is more fuel efficient to use the generator to power a stand alone battery charger that is well suited to the battery bank capacity. Amps of charger = C/10 where C = amp-hour capacity of the battery bank. 210 amp-hours of 2 series golf cart batteries = 21 amps for example; 420 amp-hours = 42 amps. Best use of fuel.
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Quoting: Steve_S thinking of a small "Car Type Heater" that runs off 12v with thermostat
Using resistance heaters off batteries like that is normally a short lived event. Two typical golf cart batteries in series = 12 volts; amp-hours capacity of 210 - 225 is normal. That is a total capacity of about 2600 watt-hours. A battery should not be drained by more than 50%; that gives about 1300 watt-hours of usable battery power from the two GC-2's.
That means a small 180 watt heater would be able to be run for about, 1300 / 180 = 7.2 hours. 180 watts is not much heat; equal to about 615 BTU.
I can't guess accurately how often a small heater like that would have to run to keep 40 F in the depth of cold weather. But likely more than we expect. Is there any way to implement a solar water heater collector, or a solar air collector to heat during sunshine hours? With sufficient mass to hold heat and good insulation direct use of the sun like that is more efficient at raising the temperature than making electricity and charging a battery. FLA batteries in particular; LFP would be a nicer fit.
Resistance heating is generally a no-no off grid unless it is a short duration load like a toaster or single serve coffee maker.
Creeky uses a propane direct vent wall heater. 8,000 BTU maybe.
Pump houses are a problem in winter climates. That's why many folks use a pitless adapter at/below frost level and bury the pipe to the house.
If the cabin will be kept above freezing temperatures perhaps something like we use in our cabin could work. We have an interior water tank. We fill it from the outside buried cistern via a small submersible bilge pump. The water drains back through the hose to the in ground water level to keep the delivery hose from freezing. In the cabin we use an RV pressure pump to distribute water internally. It works for us but then the water demands are low.
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Quoting: Steve_S 2 100Lb Tanks
We use portable cylinders too. I mentioned a larger size tank because propane generators do seem to slurp up the fuel. The portable cylinders work nice with an auto changeover regulator like those used on RV's.
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Quoting: Steve_S I had pondered using 12v circuits...
With many, maybe most or even all, inverters the power used by the inverter to invert DC to AC is likely higher than the power actually used by a couple of small efficient LED lights. Especially if the inverter is left waiting and no lights, etc are being used. If nothing else is being run, like a AC powered TV, a DC LED is by far the best for lighting efficiency. Adding DC circuits complicates the wiring a little. but in a small place maybe not too much. We have a 16x30 and use three DC powered lights. The balance is AC through an inverter that has a standby/sleep function where the inverter rests using only millivolts when the AC devices are off.
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creeky
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2014 09:21am
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Steve, if you're on a tight budget I would take the lists that the vendors provide and look on line / follow kijiji for deals. Make a good drawing of the system, write down what you need and go from there. It's pretty easy. Heck I managed it while finishing a house renovation and moving and ... anybody can do it. And I did it, back in the day, 1200 amp hrs/1kw solar, mppt for 5k. Diy.
I'm in eastern Ontario. Not far from you. You can contact me through my website at creektreat dot ca if yer around.
The systems I saw online that you posted. wow. they are dear. and usually with fatal flaws. Usually way too small on the battery packs. and a pwm controller. no way. mppt only. so when you see that ...
there were some good suppliers out of mtl. back in the day. might want to do some google searches.
i would sell the rv fridge and just get a 120v ac one. cheaper and uses less power. i have a magic chef 10 cu ft. it's not awesome except when you think that it's free and making me money every day just on the propane savings.
i didn't wire for 12v. if you have an ac fridge, you might as well just stay ac. you need the power on all the time anyway. this is my opinion. works for me.
If you are keeping your well house heated I would put my solar system there. Depends really on where gets the best sun. Then some 12v/24v wiring for the water pump?
I use a mr buddy and have well insulated batteries. I tried a 8k propane direct vent, but it heated the whole solar shed vs the mr buddy which is radiant. I open the door to the battery box, aim the radiant at it, heat the batteries up. close the door. takes about an hour every day. so a tank (20lbs) lasts for over a month. I need to do this daily for about 3 months. Yup. PITA. But it works. And it makes you feel all manly and off grid macho. insert eyeroll here.
I went with a cheap inverter (Ramsond, still like it, it died through tragic circumstance more than anything) and then bought a real fancy one. the difference in price was 700 bucks. but after you've been out here a while you realize that a dollar invested early translates into a dollar saved later ...
hence my appreciation of LFP. money invested for money saved. hope this helps.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2014 09:57am
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Mountain Don = Mountain of great info !
Inverters:
I have read a lot on inverters and their own power usage in "stand-by" modes and how some are much better than others in that regard and as for efficiency as well. Unfortunately I am not at my regular PC so my stored info is not avail. I can't for the life of me remember what brands / models are better in these regards. INDEED one that has Sleep / Stand-by is the only way to go so it's not a constant drain.
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12V & LED +
I did keep 95% of all the RV Fixtures which are in good condition. I was going to up-cycle them for the Tiny House and retrofit them with LED Bulbs. Even kept all the wiring that was reusable - beauty of surface running, easy to add in. I even kept the Bathroom Fan, Range Hood etc, all 12v. I would prefer to not have Wall Warts.
Almost all my current lighting is LED from Ikea Canada, in Canada they have a broad selection at very reasonable prices. I dunno about USA for price & availability, Maggie was looking at them in Denver and not as cheap as here. Maybe I could just eliminate the "wall warts" and wire to 12V plugs, will have to look into that possibility.
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The Energy Storm 3600iER Inverter Generator does only have an 8.3 Amp DV Plug. GOOD CATCH... I was looking at NOCO Genius Gen4 40 Amp a while ago but wasn't sure.
Schumacker (sp?) also makes a couple of Smart Chargers for multi-bank marine. They used to be a good brand but don't know anymore.
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Pump House heating.
The Well Driller / Pumping guy is just about to install everything now that the pump house is completed. He is putting the Pitless Adapter. Given that we are Cabin and not Tiny Home now, maybe better to put pressure tank in cabin. Will discuss that with him. I'm going to do some tests on the PH for heat retention because it is near airtight and hyper insulated. The installation is due to be done next week. I'll see what Matt thinks as he's done a couple of these setups.
NOTE: I also kept the Duo-Therm RV Furnace which is Propane, Direct Vent but requires 12v for the blower. Thermostatically controlled so that may also be an option. Maybe one AGM Battery with my 45 Watt Coleman Panel Charger would be sufficient for that. AND A LIGHT TO SEE !!!
I very doubt it would take much to heat & maintain such a small, well insulated building.
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I MUST REMEMBER KISS PRINCIPLE !!!
My brain hurts from all the info... my goodness !
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I really do not see myself using more than 3 lights at any given time at most.
120V stuff would be chargers for Laptop Computer, DeWalt tools, my thermal coffee pot (no heating element) and refrigerator (have to find a small Euro-Style one). Also have a 300 watt APC Smart-UPS for the Satellite Modem/Router & a CyberPower Pure Sine Digital UPS for my main computer.
I would like to keep my LG 47" LED TV Screen which I use as computer monitor but I may have to switch to something else like a small AAXA P2 Jr. LED Pico Projector I'd love to keep my Heavy Workstation Puter BUT it's a BEAST and can draw up to 1000 watts total when the video card is pushed, so the Lappie may be the only ongoing solution (1.7 Ghz i7 compared to 4.0Ghz AMD 8 Core with all the bells & whistles).
!!! Just texted with Matt (Pump Guy) and he's gonna head up and have a look at the site again, now that things have changed & moved along and see what can be done.
Oi - I NEED A COFFEE !
Steve
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2014 10:34am - Edited by: Steve_S
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Hey... your wrote while I was writing ... NO FAIR - CHEATING LMAO !!!
These "kits" are "tricksy" ain't they... MPPT Absolutely! I would have preferred a simple Buy It, Install It and get going "kit" BUT I see the caveats & issues - GEEZ, I am getting a bit freaked out how I am gonna do this in my timeframe.
The Cabin itself is sheltered on 3 sides by Cedars & Pines. No Openings on North Side at all. A few E, S & W Facing windows. The clearing for Solar Stuff panels is 50' away (+/- 10'). Battery Packs could be housed in Pump House (was original plan) but could be put into Cabin.
** SEE MY OTHER POSTING: Posting Images there **
I think that even a small Mr. Buddy would likely warm up the Pump House nicely - darn shame they don't have Temp Thermostats. May have to do that regardless to use PH as a "Warm Up" building while I continue to build... Getting Chilly.
MntDon clarified the fridge issue... It's TOAST ! Must find a small Euro-Style one.
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creeky
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2014 05:54pm
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lol. "buy it install it and get going kit" if you knew how many times I've written the same thing. 5 years ago i thought I could walk into a store and buy a system. massive laughter. and I can't believe today it is still, as my niece would say, so not possible.
I built my system diy because I had to.
If you have to keep your pump house at 40 or better (F) then I would put my batteries there. And my solar system. Running ac 115 is a breeze compared to dc. but only if the pump house gets the best solar exposure. The panels and the batteries are best put close together.
good luck. you seem to have the build a rockin'.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 10:18am - Edited by: Steve_S
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The PH is a Saltbox design as you can see in the pic's in the other post. That building is aligned true E-W so the roof is due south and is well exposed to south but some interference to the West from the Cedars.
The roof isn't that big though, about 80ish" wide and the avg 250w panel is something like 38-40" wide. Possibly just go for the 305 watt panels and reduce to 4 for 1220 watts total.
See Canadian Solar 250 / 305 panels These appear to be a Good Deal dollars & cents wise @ $218 (255w) & $266 (305w).
Had pondered putting in 1/2 PEX into the floor but didn't, even if stubbed in. (I may regret that, as a good possible option) but I dunno if that would have helped much at all in winter (of course with "green antifreeze", not water).
I would actually prefer to mount the Solar Panels on the Sea Can with a manual direction adjuster (as we saw in other postings) which would put the panels 25' from PH. See site plan in other posting. I think that would be more reasonable, also a slightly higher physical elevation & better E-W-S exposures than the PH.
Heating that dang PH is really been heavily weighing on my mind for a simple, easy solution that won't break the bank.
I had originally planned the PH to be independent of the cabin/house and hold the battery banks, regulators, chargers and everything with only the water being pumped out & power lines in the second O-Pipe.
Refrigeration solution "maybe": Yesterday Maggie & I were furtling around at Costco and came across 10.00 cu. ft. "apt fridge" for $440.00 which looks like a good fit for our needs. Especially as it only uses 312Kwh per year. To think my current "full fridge" uses 152Kwh per month, eeks ! Opinions Thoughts ??
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creeky
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 11:16am
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I have the same fridge. Mine's called Magic Chef, but the interior is identical. as is the power usage. the door seals aren't great. but it works. and depending on room temp. in the winter it uses 500 watts a day. at hot summer temps it goes up to 1 kw. which is pretty good as winter you have less power and summer. all the power you can use plus.
that's a great price on the panels. i always vote for "more is more". People think of solar as 100% full power all the time. but really it's morning, evening, haze, cloud, mist, rain etc. So you will not get full production most of the time. combine with a solar controller that can reliably handle "over paneling" ... and that's the ticket. 1.5 kws of panels, even if your controller handles 1kw means at low solar generation you're making, by example, 300 watts instead of 200. Can make a big difference at the end of the day.
You might want to look at my build. I did a solar panel install using dock hinges. The hinges are inside 80". It would work for seasonal adjustment on your panels and would let you put them on the pump house. I can't find it here tho?
it's also available on my blog. see the the-solar-shed-part-two post.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 02:24pm
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OK - HERE WE GO -
I have spoken with a couple of Solar Guys this morning... Including the fellow from DNM. After much bandying about with ideas, possibilities & considerations for the information you fine Small Cabin Folks have suggested... I wrote up a general info doc with overview, site layout and assorted infos to send out to the various Solar Suppliers that I have made contacts with. I think it provides a fairly accurate "snapshot" of what's afoot.
I would re-post that here BUT a fair bit of it would be repetitive from the rest of the threads so I'm not sure if it would be helpful to anyone.
@Creeky You CAN put links in the forum eh ! wink wink nudge nudge. Are you the same guy I talked to DNM... We had extensive chat on the controllers & expandability with reasonableness involved. Straight & CLEAR Answers too !
I know many don't get how little power I use in the Townhouse or won't believe it but the Current Household Electrical Usage (per Hydro Bill breakdown): [3br Townhouse with all fixings]
(this includes an inefficient fridge (152Kw per mo) old electric stove & old dryer)
Light to Heaviest Usage for the past year (in kWh/day) 10.61, 10.85, 11.29, 12.95, 14.35, 14.88, 16.05, 16.25 (We have weird billing cycles and they changed from 60 day to 30 day so hence why there isn't 12) BUT they break it down kWh/Day.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 03:06pm
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Quoting: Steve_S I know many don't get how little power I use in the Townhouse or won't believe it but the Current Household Electrical Usage (per Hydro Bill breakdown): [3br Townhouse with all fixings]
I can believe it. Statistics indicate the average US residence uses 900 KwH a month; 30 KwH a day. Must be a lot of very wasteful folks out there. Our 1550 sq ft home averages 14.5 KwH a day over the past year. New Mexico with summer A/C.
That is still a lot of power if one has to generate from the sun and store it.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 04:50pm
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LATEST IN - Quote & Spec from one solar supplier who worked out my setup for the region... I will not put the $#'s here... as that just wouldn't be right BUT here is the setup he suggested at price with taxes (13% grrr) just barely $6,000.00 CDN
• Canadian Solar CS6X-305P None Ontario Poly Panels 4
• MC4 - Female Locking Connector 1
• MC4 - Male Locking Connector 1
• Custom Cut - #10AWG CSA Rated (qty in meters) 10
• MC4 2 to 1 parallel female connector 1
• MC4 2 to 1 parallel male connector 1
• Flex Max 80A Charge Controller 1
• Remote Temp Sensor for FM60&80 1
• DC Breaker -- 150VDC - 20A 1
• 150V-80A-DIN rail DC breaker 1
• Enclosure for 1-4 MNEPV or MNEAC Breakers 1
• White alum chassis with 250A/125VDC breaker 1
• Surrette Solar Battery, 6V, 550AH 4
• Pre-Made Battery Cable -- 16" 3
• 4/0 Welding Cable cut to spec -- 1.5m +ve + Lug and 3
1.5m -ve + Lug from battery to MNDC250 to inverter
• 2/0 Welding Cable cut to spec -- 1.5me +ve + Lug and 3
1.5m -ve + Lug from charger to 80A breaker to battery
• 4000 Watt, 24V Inverter/105 Amp PFC Charger
can add-on later:
AGS for auto gen start - Magnum inverter.
BM for battery monitoring magnum inverter
ARC50 which is an advanced display programmer for the Magnum inverter
Seems to be OK and could likely do the trick. THOUGHTS ??
Ohh and NO SHIPPING as I can drive to get it all myself !
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creeky
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 05:20pm
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Looks good to me.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 05:53pm
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3 Questions....
1. Was there a reason given for using an Outback charge controller and a Magnum inverter/charger? I've always liked the idea of keeping the main hardware all in the same family group as then they can interconnect and communicate with each other. Add a Mate and a FlexNet DC and it is also an information center. Just wondering. Not that Magnum equipment is not as good; quality is about equal.
2. Why the FM80 and not the FM60? Or is it just because the prices are so close now... $50 US difference?
3. If you plan on using the charger in the inverter/charger much it might also be a good idea to have the RTS for it as well. IF the system was all Outback with an Outback Hub you can get away with just a single RTS.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 06:47pm
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1) I'm somewhat of a "one family" kind of guy as well. I'm not certain as to the why for this config and it's too late to contact them on voice now, so I will request that info via e-mail.
I believe he went with the Magnum MS4024PAE - 4000W-240/120VAC - Input: 18-34VDC ($1750) because of the Input Voltages, allowing me more flexibility with my battery pack. The Outback FP1-2 & FP1-4 are 48volt. Also at a significant $ difference, close to 2K difference.
The FM60 is Discount Price: $545.00
The FM80 is Discount Price: $595.00
$50 bucks difference is not a big deal IMO
At this time, I am "squeezing pennies" as the budget is getting tighter by the day... There is NO FINANCING or anything like that... It's coming from savings, cashed in investments and is 100% self-financed and is quite limited at this time. Things could possibly change in the future (things can happen) but I am doing this while surviving on a small disability pension and therefore trying to keep things in line and attempting to reduce my ongoing Cost of Living to where I can afford to keep living. Heck, I'm trading, exchanging, swapping, bartering up-cycling and using Kijiji to the max... to stretch it out and make this work. Add-Ons can come later as I "bank" up cash to do so.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 07:34pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: Steve_S I believe he went with the Magnum MS4024PAE - 4000W-240/120VAC - Input: 18-34VDC ($1750) because of the Input Voltages, allowing me more flexibility with my battery pack.
Seems to be some confusion on that. The input voltage on a 4024 is 24 volts nominal, with a low to high range of 18 - 34 to cover operation from depleted battery voltage to high equalization voltages. The range is not meant to allow choice of battery bank voltages. IIRC, the Outback VFX range is 21-34; still more range than a good 24 VDC system should ever need. The low voltage limit is to protect the inverter from damage. In reality if the voltage really did drop to 18 volts the batteries would almost be certainly damaged. A 24 volt battery bank should never see more than 32 volts even under the most exuberant EQ'ing.
That Magnum 4024 is nice though as it combines 120 VAC and 240 VAC outputs in one box. I have a friend with one. He uses the 240 VAC for his well pump. IF you need to have 240 VAC it is a good choice. If you don't need 24 VDC, then why bother?
Comparing the Magnum 4024 to the Outback VP's is unfair. The VP's combine a FlexMax charge controller, a FlexNET DC Monitor, a GFDI, and a HUB and a Mate 3 plus a VFX series inverter / charger. The VFX are available in 12, 24 and 48 volt versions. Compare the pricing on the inverter/charger only.
The Magnum 4024PAE is more comparable to the Outback VFX 3534. But the VFX is only 120 VAC.
I don't know of any inverters that have flexible, built in, DC supply voltage choices. In both the Magnum and Outback inverter lines the last two digits = input DC voltage. 3524, is 24 volts DC input. The same model for 48 volts is a 3548. In both makes the first two digits indicate wattage. 4024 = 4000 watts. 3524 = 3500 watts, 28 = 2800 and so on..
I agree the $50 difference is not much. But if $$ are tight the 80 has capacity your system does not need. Sure you could add more PV capacity later, but what about batteries? If you add PV later it would be likely to want to add storage capacity too. Batteries (FLA) should not be added to after months to a year depending on quality.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 07:55pm
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Add a good hydrometer like the one Midnight sells.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2014 09:44pm
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Gee MtnDon... Your really helping on ALL Levels... THANKS MAN !!!
All this Solar Stuff, even though I have been reading up on it & trying to get up to speed is still a lot of gobbledegook to me. Especially the "Alphabet Soup".
I was a IT Systems Core Engineer for almost 15 years and doing NATO Security Technologies, so if we want to Gobbledegook with Alphabet Soup, I can help there in Computer & Technology terms.
Gimme a Chev 350 SBC or 454 BBC and I can Build it Run it and race it... Gimme computer tech / soft - hardware and easy peazy... Want me to rebuilt your 69 Camaro and weld all the steel perfectly and use virtually no filler... Okie Dokie ! (But I get to take her for a "run" okay !
I need K.I.S.S. principle applied in this area of Solar Power Generation - it's just not as cut & dry as Computer Tech or auto-mech. Besides I'm on Mental Overload with all the information I have to absorb in such a short time.
I am aware of the Battery situation as far as adding on later (past 3 months) and understand that new mixed with old "ages" the new down (bad terms but I'm comfy with it). I likely would add another "pair" within 2 months or so, but I need to have shelter over my head first & foremost and bank in cash to buy more.
This entire adventure has taken so many twists & turns since August, I sometimes feel like I'm in a blender, on high, with the lid off... but I'm still in the "receptacle".
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creeky
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2014 11:16am
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I thought about your battery situation. you end up with less than 15kw with 3 usable. That's a pretty small battery pack for your situation.
So glad to see you're looking at adding another 4 in a few months to a year. (Even if you lose a year of life, what's the price divided by eight years. Doesn't add up to much...)
of course, imho, you'd be better off ordering a $7k battery that would give you 12kw usable. LFP cough cough. And last possibly twice as long. But those surrettes should last 8 years and then who knows what will be available.
I can't comment on the inverter charger. It looks big, but gives you lots of expansion room. Your controller is certainly a good price. And I agree, the 80 gives you some panel expansion. That's a good move for $50.
Personally i like the morningstar controllers as they have built in lightening protection and, most important, you don't need a "remote" or anything like that. They have built in web server. you just plug it into your router, type in the address and you've got all the info/control you need right there on your computer.
One of my eyerolls with some of the other mfcts is that they nickle and dime you on remotes, and lightening protection and ...
I'm 200 feet from my solar panels right now and yet by changing tabs on Google chrome I can see I'm making 293 watts under cloudy skies and my batteries are at 13.23 with the fridge, lights, internet all running. Nice.
Good luck with your build.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2014 11:52am
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@MtnDon: This is the response I got from the vendor with the above config.
1. Like you I like to keep the brands the same to they talk to each other.
2. I can change the Magnum to Outback. Would the VFX 3524 work? It is a bit more money...
2. FM80 is only $50 more, at 24V battery side with fm60 you can put a MAX of 1500W in to it. With the FM80, 2000W, your choice. If you go with 48V battery setup, then FM60 300W, FM80 4000W solar input.
3. With the FM60 or 80 we would add the RTS for the solar side. The inverter charger will come with RTS also to monitor temp from that side...
4. With batteries you will not have any issues adding more.
1.Panel/array size will depend on MPPT controller size. Please read 2.
2. If you need to add even more panels, then all you do it to add another FM80 or 60 for another 2000W or 1500W respectively.
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With the VFX it added about $300 to the quote.
======================
They also provided a quote with
• FLEX power ONE, Prewired AC and DC boxes with 120VAC Bypass and Type B Outlet, 250ADC breaker, GFDI, 80 amp charge controller breaker, VFX3524, MATE3, HUB4, RTS, FLEXmax 80, FLEXnet DC and surge protector for 120V 60Hz applications.
Which pumped the price up by $1300.00
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@Creeky, if you know the next Lotto-Max Numbers are going to be, I'll share in that... budget, budget & budget...
I would really like to be able to see the data on my PC in my cabin, especially @ -35 or colder... (blogging days). I really just need to get through winter even if I have to rough it (which I will be anyways) and don't have the time to furtle around or cash to waste on messing up only to have to pay for the mess later. Hence why I need good solid "real info" that works ! Things "may" change but I never count on anything until after the Fat Lady has finished singing her tune.
Even if I have to goto Canadian Poof Poof and get some bits there... Geez, I guess I'll be returning the 3kw Inverter I got on sale a couple of weeks ago. I was "worst case scenario" planning on getting a couple of Marine AGM's & 100w panel + Gen to drive the water pump alone and that inverter happened to be on sale...
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creeky
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2014 05:49pm
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the real question is are they installing?
imho. it's a good system and you can work out details later. the price isn't bad either. esp. for reasonably good quality stuff.
You don't need dual rts. the inverter charger isn't for equalize. it's just to give you a bump on your power. I'd save some money there if I were you. I don't know if you can manually set the charge limits, but it probably runs 29v for bulk. That's plenty ...
As for panels etc per controller. You've got 1.2. The 80 lets you go to 2000. And that's before we even talk about overpaneling. Which you can research later. Common technique in our climate.
I don't know if you contacted Matrix. They've been around for quite awhile. And have some cottage kits.
URL
or
These guys are pretty big. But they have a cottage kit at 1500 watts. Don't know prices. Nice thing is the wiring comes pre done. You basically hang the controllers etc on the wall and put your panels up.
URL
Good luck.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2014 06:05pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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To the question of the inverter / charger...
If the Magnum 4024PAE is cheaper than the Outback VFX3524 that may be because of something with the local pricing. Where I am the Outback are cheaper.... $2160 for the Magnum MS4024PAE, $2080 for the Magnum MS4024 (120 VAC only version) and $1884 for the VFX3524 with the Outback Mate. Note: the Mate is required for programming, but is also usable as a remote with the FM60/80 and other Outback accessories. A "matched set" is nice, but it is your wallet the money is coming out of. Maybe your local supplier has some inventory on hand that he wishes to move and that may be why the prices are what they are.
If you really have no need for the 240 VAV that the MS4024PAE offers, ask them about the 120 VAC only version, MS4024. It should cost less than the MS4024PAE version.
The Flexpower FP1 is nice in that it is a prewired ready to connect system. Less fuss and bother and often will save $$ when all the parts that are included are considered. No doubt it is more money now than just using the bare required items. But the Flexnet DC is a nice total metering system. Again, it is your budget we're wrecking. Easy for us to talk.
Quoting: Steve_S With the FM60 or 80 we would add the RTS for the solar side. The inverter charger will come with RTS also to monitor temp from that side...
The RTS is not a normally included item with a VFX. Maybe that is something your dealer is putting together special. One RTS is included with the FP1 and it will work with both the FM60/80 and the VFX via the included hub.
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To further confuse things is the question of adding batteries later. Adding a second string of 4 of those Surettes in parallel with the first set is not the ideal. Parallel batteries are less than ideal, but sometimes necessary because of things like budgets. This once again, to me, raises the question of really how much capacity is required? How much storage capacity is the main question, to me.
IF 8 of those Surettes would have the real desired capacity then placing them in series for 48 volts is closer to the ideal. The FM60/80 has no problem with that. A 48 volt version of the VFX inverter/charger costs the same. There is also a 48 volt version of the Magnum PAE at the same price. But that means more $$ for batteries right now, not later.
Have you determined how much capacity is really needed ?
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2014 06:13pm
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Wow Creeky, the info is GOOD IMO.
Matrix Pkg 5 $11K 1290w, 20.16kWh storage, 4000w inverter, 54.20 summer & 18.20 winter kWk production a week $ 10,974
HES 1500 looks okay BUT no prices. Batts optional ? Seriously kids ?? The HES 1500 kit.
Dunno about an 8000w inverter... Like A-Bomb to swat fly.
Gonna shake domelvalley and also sent my data to Alt-E (no response yet) But I think that won't get far because of Duties, S&H etc... I suspect we'd take a good hit on that. Hoping to stick to someone I can drive to in Worst Case scenario if something decides to give up the ghost.
Couple more hours in this noisy, messy & filled with crazies city and back to Peace & Relaxing country. Ohhh how I hate Cities ! NEVER EVER AGAIN ! (wasn't my choice though) I WILL BE PLANTED ON OUR LAND till I'm carted off in a Pine Box or set ablaze in a Viking style Boat Burial !
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2014 08:04pm
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@MtnDon just saw your post... sorry, was writing to Creeky while you posted & I had to run off to do other things afterwards.
Remember that Canada has a different duty & tax system, so it may be attributed to that as cost differences... Especially in regards to products from Asia, most notably China. You guys in the states got the short end of the stick on that dealio.
The MS-PAE Series - MS4024PAE is $25 more than the MS-PAE Series - MS4024
The FP1-2 & FP1-4 are $3900 ea. Either/Or. Budget Strainer in my case.
Surrette Solar Battery, 6V, 550AH 4x 327.00 ea so $1,308.00
We are discussing adding the extra 4 in there right away for a full set of 8 Surette's. Although would have preferred Rolls as they are Canadian - You know Buy Local, Support Local... I'm just FICKLE that way. You ought to see me at the Grocery Stores !
For Capacity, I'd like to have 3-days batt reserve IF POSSIBLE and then could be able to juice them up with the Generator if needed. I remember Ice Storm 98 all too well and have survived such conditions a few times in my lifetime...
Considering how little power I do use anyways and that will be far less in the cabin (no inefficient appliances like my Pig of Fridge and Slug Dryer) and also I use avg 10-11 kWh/day (per power co bill breakdown) NOW with these power hog appliances...
Kinda like a spaceship, you need enough air to get there and back and a little extra just in case but never short yourself or it's a one way trip... but don't overload either as you may not have the fuel to make it...
Again the possibility of adding more Solar Panels and/or wind turbine (wind works day, night, rain or snow) which is something we need to have in mind as well for down the road.
KISS BEING APPLIED: I'm favouring the following...
• Canadian Solar CS6X-305P None Ontario Poly Panels (4)
• MC4 - Female Locking Connector (1)
• MC4 - Male Locking Connector (1)
• Custom Cut - #10AWG CSA Rated (qty in meters) (10)
• MC4 2 to 1 parallel female connector (1)
• MC4 2 to 1 parallel male connector (1)
• Flex Max 80A Charge Controller (1)
• Remote Temp Sensor for FM60&80 (1)
• DC Breaker -- 150VDC - 20A (1)
• 150V-80A-DIN rail DC breaker (1)
• Enclosure for 1-4 MNEPV or MNEAC Breakers (1)
• White alum chassis with 250A/125VDC breaker (1)
• Surrette Solar Battery, 6V, 550AH (4)
• Pre-Made Battery Cable -- 16" (3)
• 4/0 Welding Cable cut to spec -- 1.5m +ve + Lug and 1.5m -ve + Lug from battery to MNDC250 to inverter (3)
• 2/0 Welding Cable cut to spec -- 1.5me +ve + Lug and 1.5m -ve + Lug from charger to 80A breaker to battery (3)
• Outback -- 3500 W, 24 VDC Inverter with 85 Amp charger (1)
PLUS the other 4 Surrettes if we can pull that together.
Anyways, hitting the road now for the Country... will check in later's. TTFN
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2014 08:20pm
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Re: taxes / duties. I know there are differences but there should be no difference on the taxes / duties on Magnum vs Outback as both are Made In USA, not China. They are about 20 miles apart in WA state.
If you choose the VFX3524 (which I like) you do need a Mate.
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