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jesse
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 02:50pm - Edited by: jesse
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I just bought a cottage in Quebec (woohoo!), it has electricity but no water in. I'd estimate that there's a vertical lift of about 80 or 100 ft from the lake. I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding any suggestions online about what sort of pump to get. Most of the ones I've seen have a limit of 20 to 25 ft.
I've seen some submersible "well pumps" like this one that say they can handle that kind of lift, but (1) I'm not sure if these are appropriate for lakes and (2) I'm guessing it would be easier to install a powerful jet pump at the bottom of the hill but above water.
Does anyone have any advice?
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Nirky
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 02:56pm
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You could make yourself fairly easily a ram pump that would pump uphill and consume no energy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG0laNqJWY0
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Just
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 04:41pm
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a jet pump will only lift 20 to 25 ft. but it will push much more, look for the ' head ' pumping number in the pumps stats . if you can get hydro down to the lake i think that's the way to go .
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 04:45pm - Edited by: ColdFlame
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Ram pumps require a head for the water to run into the pump, thereby providing your back pressure. Unfortunately, because the water source is a lake it won't work in this scenario.
I believe you would require a high speed centrifugal pump to achieve this, though this may still be a tall order. I'm no expert, but there is a possibility you may have to pump it partway up the hill to a container of some sort (IBC tank or something?) and then pump it again from there.
Just running through Honda's website, these may fit your bill: http://powerequipment.honda.ca/waterpumps/high-pressure/wh20
http://powerequipment.honda.ca/waterpumps/high-pressure/wh15
Congratulations on the purchase of your cottage. It looks like a beautiful spot.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 05:55pm
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Hi Jesse,
Where are you located (approx)? Hard to tell from the photo but that looks a bit familiar. Near Ste-Therese-de-la-Gatineau?
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jesse
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 06:09pm - Edited by: jesse
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Thanks guys. Ram pumps are very interesting, I had no idea they exist... but I agree that it doesn't seem like the solution for my 100ft-above-a-lake situation 
Wow, those honda pumps seem powerful enough to do the job, if I can't find a cheaper solution! And thanks, it's a great spot for my small budget! As you can see the property is very wild/overgrown, but I think it will clean up nicely.
From the specs listed, this "Flotec 1 HP Multi-Stage Deep-Well Jet Pump" might work (260 ft "head pressure"). I guess it will be hard to know in advance, perhaps I will need to buy one and make sure I can return it if it doesn't do the job.
razmichael, I'm a few hours north of Montreal, so pretty far from Ste-Therese-de-la-Gatineau
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 06:16pm
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I suggest you look for a pump supplier/service company who can steer you toward the right equipment. It's not rocket science, but there are a lot of variables and getting the right combination of pump, pipe, power source etc. is important for peak efficiency.
Seems like a submersible well pump would be a good possible alternative, since they are made to push uphill. But it might cost you a lot less to get a pump that isn't immersed. With a submersible you have to figure how to suspend it in the water or otherwise locate it.
I'd try to find a cooperative commercial pump supplier, like for agriculture, who can steer you toward the least expensive most reliable way to do this.
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jesse
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 06:19pm
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bldginsp, very good advice, I'll see if I can do that.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 06:52pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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I've been researching well pumps cause I'm drilling a well soon, and learned the basics of that. When you start asking questions, the first thing they will ask you is a bunch of questions, so you need to be ready to answer. Such as-
-are you filling a storage tank or pumping to a pressure tank? If to a pressure tank you will need a much stronger pump to maintain flow rate and overcome the pressure of the pressure tank. Storage tank can be filled slowly with small pump.
-exact rise from lake to delivery point
-diameter of pipe going up hill. Smaller pipe has more resistance to flow, larger has less resistance. You must calc in this flow resistance. 1" pipe is the usual compromise in residential installs.
-length of delivery pipe
-do you have electrical at the lake shore, if not, how to power the pump?
With this info in hand, an expert can give alternatives. Otherwise he'll send you home to get the info
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PatrickH
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 08:41pm
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This is the pump I use URL in my well is 140' deep and the pump is set around 80' down at the end of an additional 100' hose the pressure from the pump alone (no pressure tank)is as good if not better than any household water pressure.If I where you I would use a pump like this hooked to HDPE water safe pipe hooked to a pressure tank at the cabin have your control box and switch at the cabin and you then can have pressurized water have disconnects close to shore for the elec and water line so you can pull the pump in the winter
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bobrok
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 09:09pm
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I have a very similar situation in that my rise is roughly 100 feet from the lake to my storage barrels. I researched and finally gave up on electric pumps due to my height and the restrictions of using electric pumps. As much as I didn't want a gas engine pump I took a chance and bought a 2 cycle gas pump rated at over 90' head and I have been very pleased with my results. It's a Mitsubishi URL.
This little pump has really impressed me with it's ability to raise water to my height using just a 5/8" garden hose and with plenty of pressure. And the pump itself was not all that expensive.
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Nirky
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 09:19pm
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Quoting: ColdFlame Ram pumps require a head for the water to run into the pump, thereby providing your back pressure. Unfortunately, because the water source is a lake it won't work in this scenario.
Not exactly, you create a head by sending the water downward first before it's pumped up above. I don't know the geography of Jesse's property, but it may be doable.
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jesse
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 10:02pm
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bldginsp, again very good advice, I'll calculate those things. my refined guess is 70 ft lift, 120 ft long delivery pipe.
bobrok, interesting... i've noticed those tend to have high power / head capabilities. how much gas do you find it uses? how often does it require a refill? also, your URL didn't work for me, but feel free to share the brand / model of the pump.
PatrickH, is there a specific reason why you would suggest a pressure tank? i've read that they prolong the life of the pump and provide consistent water pressure to the house, but I don't know much about them.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 10:06pm
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The ram pump would have to be located 20-30 feet below the lake level, at least, as in at the base of a dam
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bobrok
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 10:12pm - Edited by: bobrok
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http://reviews.northerntool.com/0394/10632/northstar-water-pump-1in-ports-1742-gph-19 -8cc-2-stroke-engine-reviews/reviews.htm
I'm on my phone and sometimes have a difficult time with links. I hope this one works.
My cabin neighbor has the same pump as me and we both love them.
I have 4 55-gal. drums that I pump into and I can almost fill them all up on a single tank of gas.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 10:20pm
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Bobrok- I bet you would get close to twice the water delivery if you installed 1" pipe instead of the garden hose. I was looking at charts that show how much resistance to flow is caused by different pipe diameters, and anything below 1" has so much resistance it severely restricts flow. 100 ft of 1" poly pipe is about $30, fittings another $30.
But if what you got works, don't fix it.
Just a thought, those charts are eye openers.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 10:36pm
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Agreed, and I am working towards improving that piping system. For now I'm using what hose is available to me, but I know that increasing to 1" would do nothing but increase flow.
However, I wanted to post here to let everyone know how incredible a workhorse that little 2 cycle Mitsubishi pump is. I did notice that Northern Tool says no longer available, but maybe with a little searching it can be found elsewhere.
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 10:39pm
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a 3\4 hp. Goulds will do it $435 in Canada goulds.com
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Nirky
Member
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 11:07pm
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Quoting: bldginsp The ram pump would have to be located 20-30 feet below the lake level, at least, as in at the base of a dam
The more the better, but in watching vids on the subject none say your number. I think that's because there are other factors than the fall. Only Jesse knows the geography from the lake to his cabin. Here's an engineer who deals in facts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y_WWxWdn5A
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jesse
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2014 11:15pm - Edited by: jesse
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My geography is pretty much that I have 160ft of lakefront, and it's all at the bottom of the hill pictured in my first post, BUT my land flattens out for about 20ft (so there is flat land between the slope and the lake). As pictured below.
lake at bottom of hill
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lake shot #2
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Don_P
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2014 07:05am
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I run a 3/4 hp submersible in our well ~120ft down and 350' more up to the house with ~80 more feet of head in the run to the house, 1" poly. I help maintain a neighbor's system with a submersible in a springbox (could just as easily be a lake). The 1" poly line runs ~400' up to that house. Both systems fill a pressure tank. The job I'm on now has an old ram, it uses the fall in the stream to provide the drive to run the ram.
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PatrickH
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2014 07:27am
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Quoting: jesse is there a specific reason why you would suggest a pressure tank? i've read that they prolong the life of the pump and provide consistent water pressure to the house, but I don't know much about them.
Yes,for those reasons and also a storage supply they are basically a tank with a bladder of air that the incoming water pushes against until your cutoff pressure is reached then the stored charge of air creates the pressure until you hit your low pressure setting and the pump turns on and recharges the system.The nice thing is once its installed very little screwing around no huge holding tanks,gas engines,low water pressure,low water volume to worry about.
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Mammoth
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2014 09:03am
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I have a Honda GXH50 on my gold dredge and they work real good. 2.5 horse power 4 stroke so its quiet, very light and good on gas.
Keene ENG. makes them with a 100gpm pump with 161 feet of lift.
One time I used the little propane bottles to run it. Each bottle was good for about a hour. All I did was put a valve on the bottle and ran a tube to the intake. Opened the valve, started the engine, opened the valve a little more then idled the engine up. Worked great.
Prices have gone up over the years but still worth it. See them on craigslist titled under "dredge" from time to time for cheep.
http://www.keeneeng.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=P90GH&Categor y_Code=EP
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2014 11:11am
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@Jesse:
This one's a bit more reasonable and still provides the head lift you require: http://powerequipment.honda.ca/waterpumps/transfer/wx10
It's also on sale.
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jesse
Member
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2014 11:49am
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These Honda pumps seem great, but they're all gas powered right? It would be a good solution if I wanted to avoid bringing a power line down to the lakefront area, but I think I'll be doing that next spring.
My plan is to built a small shed with power, to house my marine batteries (and trolling motor when not in use), and perhaps also my jet pump assuming it should be sheltered. I spend a lot of time on the lake and I really want to avoid carrying those batteries up and down 70 stairs every day so I think bringing power down the hill is unavoidable.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2014 02:49pm
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Please let us know how your electric pump works/details when you've completed your project.
I also have 80-some steps to the lake and then a flat run of maybe 30 feet to my filters and storage tanks.
I really chickened out with using electricity and I will be very interested in your results.
Thanks,
bob
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2014 03:12pm
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Quoting: jesse These Honda pumps seem great, but they're all gas powered right?
You bet... I didn't realize running power down closer to the water was a viable option. That will be a better way to go for you given your requirements! Keep us updated to the progress.
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jesse
Member
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2014 04:55pm
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I'll definitely post some updates in the spring! hopefully I don't chicken out of the electricity plan too...
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lost in the woods
Member
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# Posted: 13 Oct 2014 09:05pm
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grundfoss make a submesible pump they can be bought at rideu supply in ontario but im sure they are avaiable in quebec also and they have a soft start motor ive used them in all kinds of solar powered cabins they are 115v good luck
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