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rmak
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2014 02:39pm
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I just installed a small solar set up in my cabin to provide my simple needs there, so this is more of a general gripe/rant/question about the state of the solar industry and development.
I asked a lot of questions here about installing solar both here and elsewhere. It took a long time to de-mystify the process. Before and since I have read tons of topics asking about setting up solar, upgrading solar, trouble shooting solar, etc.
I'm sure that most of the folks who post here feel like I did. I was basically on my own in a world of technology in which I had no clue. I had to persevere through all the frustrations.
My question is, if solar is the coming thing in a post peak oil world, why is it so hard? I didn't experience any solar company making things any more user friendly.
It seems that in any other market, companies are striving to make it easy to buy and use things, particularly in technology. Computers are actually starting to anticipate consumer needs to the point where they know what you are going to want before you realize you want it.
I could give a number of places where things could be improved on, but all anyone here has to do is look at the questions posted over and over on our forum.
Not a big thing, but an indicator is the components. The ones I got look like the stereo components I bought in the 80's, like someone built them in their basement. I'm not trying to be rude, but it seems like crescent wrench technology in the age of wildly sophisticated technology in every other area.
I'm sure if solar wasn't the step-sister to energy tech, there would be easy, fast plug and play systems that could be added to and expanded, with minimum hassles.
Just wondering if I'm alone in thinking this way...
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2014 03:41pm
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I encountered the same thing as I began researching it. I think what it boils down to is that everyone's needs are a bit different, so different components are required, and all components in any given system need to be balanced to each other, so you really have to design and build each one separately.
Maybe as the industry matures they will come up with packaged systems that are more or less 'plug and play' but I don't see that yet.
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beachman
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2014 04:24pm
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Join the club! It was a real learning curve to get going and I am still trying to figure things out. Most people on this site and others including YouTube are trying to be very helpful and there is some great information and experience out there But many of the contributors have a core knowledge that many others like me lack, and therefore many topics of basic understanding are overlooked.
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rayyy
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2014 05:33pm
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I hear yah Remak.This small 120 watt solar charger set up I put up is disappointing to me.I was hoping to be able to run my computer or tv for 4 hours a day on 12 volt battery power through a 600 watt inverter but these gadgets eat up the batteries in an hour or two falling way short of my plans.I'm still having to fire up the generator every night.
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ILFE
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2014 06:52pm
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rmak,
Until battery technology improves to the point where you can add batteries at a later date without the difference in ages destroying them, it is going to be difficult to easily expand individual systems. Adding batteries just six months younger than the current batteries to your bank, can adversely affect the bank already in place.
Regarding other components of the system, it's all in what you choose to put into it. Buy a cheaply made, cheaply designed garbage controller, and that is what is going to be charging your $2,000 to $3,000 USD battery bank.
Companies do exist that try to make it easier for you to build your system. Take Midnite Solar, for example. They provide pre-wired controller boxes that simply need you to plug your paralleled strings into them. I have seen them. They are pretty cut and dry. Not to mention, Midnite takes pride in their parts / systems - not to mention their customer service. I am a repeat customer, and a Beta Tester for the company.
What I don't get is, why people would buy a complete "all-in-one" system, which usually includes a shite cheap controller. The controller should be the central focus of your system. The controller is the "brains". It is a primary determining factor as to how long your batteries will survive. If your controller has an appropriate number of panels (determined by simple mathematics) to charge your batteries to it, all will usually be fine. If, however, you make the mistake so many do and under panel your system, then look out.
Another thing, one I find amusing is that I see guys wondering why their systems do not perform as they should. They post on forums such as this, asking the $1,000 USD question - "Why?". Well, maybe it's because they didn't pass math class.
They simply cannot understand why that single 150 watts solar module will not charge their 500AH battery bank.
Also, as bldginsp stated, we have much different energy usage needs. You may need 8kWh per day to run your home, while I may only need 5kWh per day. So, each system has to be more unique, tailored to the person requiring it.
rayyy, in your case, it sounds like to me you did not calculate your energy needs prior to buying / building your system. Again, it's just mathematics. Calculate your loads. Once you know your total watt hours, you can determine everything else you need.
Typically, you should size your inverter to your PV array 1 to 1. If you have a 500 watts array, don't go any larger than a 500 watts inverter.
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rmak
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2014 08:53pm
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Thanks for the thoughtful replies, folks.
One of the first things that was troubling for me was "Calculate your usage". I'm sure it's because we are all spoiled by grid power that we can just use at will, but how can anyone who is building a cabin for the first time actually make such an evaluation? How do I know what power I might want to use in a year? I might want to start making wooden signs with a router or take in a piece work soldering job for extra money, or add a blower to my wood stove. Who knows? In my case I opted for the minimum. Mostly because of cost. It's all cool now, but...
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ILFE
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2014 10:52pm
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Well, you just try to calculate as best you can, for the smaller loads. Then, plan for a generator for larger loads.
It doesn't make sense to plan a solar array to run a load you may only use every now and then, or for loads that are very large, like an electric stovetop, or maybe an oven.
The costs for the inverters and batteries, and then the panels to charge them - well, would be astronomical.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2014 11:33pm - Edited by: groingo
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I hear you loud and clear as I decided by hook or crook I was finally going to go solar but I began questioning myself and resigned myself that if I was going to actually get it done that I best just hire it done... money was not a problem, well call after call and company after company not one returned call or email, seems the industry has enough to do it didn't need any more business so I started asking more of my odball questions here to see if I was missing or forgotten anything as the supposed "professionals" selling the stuff could never follow through or give the same answer twice... .pretty flakey at best so I bit the bullet, went with my figures and along I stumbled into a California company called Renogy which opened my eyes, made it plug and play simple and today two weeks later I am happy as he- -!
What I have learned is to listen to what is said here, weigh your needs with expectations and above all make no decision without taking thorough Killawatt meter readings yourself, to know exactly how much juice you really need which is key, forget the online calculators and the books and the technobable and go by the hard irrefutable information the meter provides then run it by a reputable calculator, you need a solid foundation of information going in, after that it's easy.
I was prepared to cough up at least $6000.00 to have mine done and in the end I did it myself for under a grand COMPLETE!
The thing that got me through was the experienced real world users here that gave me the information I needed to have the confidense to dive in feet first!
Heck, before I ordered my system I never even knew there was a such thing as a PWM charge controller, I do now and in my application it was the right choice and the list goes on!
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ILFE
Member
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2014 12:28am
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See?! Now, you have an extra $5,000 USD to throw a party for small-cabin members. :D :D
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2014 12:42am
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I'll wear my Tommy Bahama shirt
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rmak
Member
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2014 02:05am
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I agree groingo. I would have never been able to pull it off if it wasn't for this forum and it's members.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2014 11:27am
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bldginsp
"I'll wear my Tommy Bahama shirt"
Oh, you are a sick man!
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spoofer
Member
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2014 02:28pm
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RMAK
I have a rustic cabin in the Tug Hill. I have a basic 100 watt system that supplies my needs for weekend camping there 90% of the time. It consists of a Renogy mono 100 watt panel, mppt charge controller and a $100 Walmart deep cycle battery. I power four 5 watt Chinese led lights a radio/mp3 player and a 26 watt led tv with it no problem on most days. The only time it ran a little low on power was when a friend stayed up tip midnight watching tv, but the inverter buzzed letting me know that the battery had dropped to unacceptable levels. I spent about $350 total on my system.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Oct 2014 01:51pm
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Quoting: rmak if solar is the coming thing in a post peak oil world, why is it so hard?
Much of this has already been opined on....
Biggest issue is the question of how much power does a person/family need? That is going to be all over the place as we are all different and have different expectations. On grid it is easy. Code says put in a 200 amp (grid tied) service and if we do so virtually nobody will have any power outages because their home/cabin system was too small.
Yes, estimating is a sometimes daunting task. But without a reasonably accurate estimate everything becomes a guessing game.
Add to the varying power requirements the variables caused by latitude and weather patterns increase the design problems. There really is no one size fits all, IMO.
Systems that fail to perform as desired usually fail because the storage capacity is too small or too large and/or the PV panel power output is undersized and incapable of recharging the previous days use in one normal sunny day.
Our system is larger than many others here, but it is smaller than the systems a couple of other friends use.
There are also, IMO, too many outfits out there in the world of the internet who are more interested in making a sale, any sale, than they are interested in meeting the needs of the customer. That adds more difficulty to the planning process.
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rmak
Member
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# Posted: 6 Oct 2014 05:33pm
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Quoting: MtnDon Much of this has already been opined on....
Sorry MtnDon. Never saw this particular rant before or I would have just read the info there.
Unless someone reads and keeps up with forums consistently a lot of things are rehashed.
The running joke on a motorcycle forum I frequent is the number "What kind of oil to use" questions. Some new bike owner posts that question every other week or so.
I can really second the gripe about internet sales. It's always better to deal with people face-to-face.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Oct 2014 06:26pm
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Quoting: rmak Quoting: MtnDon Much of this has already been opined on.... Sorry MtnDon. Never saw this particular rant before or I would have just read the info there.
I was meaning that many of the early posters in this thread had already stated some of what I was about to state. I guess I was a little vague on what I was saying...
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Quoting: rmak I can really second the gripe about internet sales. It's always better to deal with people face-to-face.
Or deal with internet vendors with a proven track record. There are some around. Maybe a topic on recommending Vendors of Quality should be started. Vendors we have had personal dealing with, not second hand repetitions. Maybe with a reason(s) for the high rating. I like the idea of giving kudos to the "good guys" better than rants about problems.
Unfortunately for me, my favorite local (ABQ) PV vendor has switched to wholesale only. Business must be good!
In NM I like TheSolarBiz.com. though they are not really close by. They have been in business a long time, live and work off grid and like to see repeat business. So, IMO, they are honest folks. Good prices on serious batteries and the possibilities of local pickups in many places. Or decent shipping on factory direct drop shipments.
NAWS, Northern AZ Wind Sun is another of my choices for an excellent vendor. I have asked them questions in the past and received speedy responses. Order handling is fast too.
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rmak
Member
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# Posted: 6 Oct 2014 07:29pm
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I agree with focusing on the positive. Here's mine:
Trail Battery and Solar
Trail, Ohio.
Great guys, great service, great follow-up. Can't say enough good about them.
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