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rugercpl
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2014 10:40pm
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My cabin is off-grid but wired similar to a standard grid-tied house. Outlets, light switches, panel box etc. I supply power to the cabin with either a Eu2000 back-feeding into an outlet to the panel, or by a solar generator (battery bank, inverter, solar panels,) back-feeding into an outlet to power the panel box.
I have a funky thing happening with my lights. When the Eu2000 is powering the cabin, there is no problem. When the solar generator is powering the cabin, my LED lights dont all want to work simultaneosly. I have 4 LED track lights all on the same circuit with a dimmer switch. The dimmer switch is LED friendly. I also have 4 LED flood lights...one on each outside wall of the cabin, each with its own wall switch. When running the inverter on battery power, some funky stuff happens when I try to use the inside track lights and the outside floods simultaneosly. Most of the time with the track lights on, if I try to turn on an outside flood light, every light in the cabin will blink rapidly on/off and if the TV is on it sometimes shuts off the TV. This doesnt happen with the Eu2000 supplying the power.
I want to think its something strange about the track light dimmer but I cant be sure. The word "harmonics" come to mind too but I dont know why. It is definitely not an issue of too many watts running. The inverter is 1500 watts continuous and I never come close to that. If there is a short somewhere, then why is there no issue when the Eu2000 is running? Another odditiy is that with battery power, I can run all four outdoor floods with no issue as long as the indoor track lights are off. Its something to do with the indoor lights and the outdoor lights running at the same time. Weird. My inverter is Pure Sine Wave too.
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creeky
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2014 10:59am - Edited by: creeky
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How old are those led lights? I have really early ones and they would only work one at a time like you're describing if there was any kind of load. I retired those.
The next generation (still in use) pulses in time with my clothes washer.
My most recent leds all stay steady. (I bought 2 track fixtures used $20 bucks. New led bulbs to replace the halogens ... $40 bucks. Sheesh. But to go from 200 watts (4x50) to 28 watts (4x7.5). grin. And yes. I am that bad at math.)
Maybe it is a harmonic issue? I never figured it out.
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rugercpl
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2014 11:08am
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All my LED's are pretty modern....outdoor floods are Lithonia's and the indoor tracks are Hampton Bay from home Depot. It's odd to me that they all work together fine with the eu2000 powering them, but freak out when running from the true sine wave inverter. I have no issues with running multiple appliances with battery power...so I would say its not a load issue.
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2014 01:06pm
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Bypass the dimmer and test. At least you will find or eliminate a cause.
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rayyy
Member
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2014 05:17pm
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Iv'e got all 12 volt LED lighting in my cabin and barns.I have one of my older led bulbs starting to flicker a little now.I hate to order more cause they are so expensive.I know now that the 12 volt fluorescent bulbs are not the way to go.They get so hot and discolor and burn out just like the 120 volt one do.Another recommendation about led bulbs is to order warm white and not cool white or daylight bulbs.
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old243
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2014 09:55pm
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The color of led lights is stated as temperature rating . 3000 rating is cool white, similar to incandescent. when you get up to 5000 they are daylight. Might help pick out the kind you want. Personally I prefer the cool white, not as harsh. There are also small rectangular led panels. that you can mount in a fixture, they are 12v , and mostly off shore on e bay Old243
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 08:54pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: rayyy 12 volt fluorescent bulbs are not the way to go.They get so hot and discolor and burn out just like the 120 volt one do.
FYI, the only difference between a FL that operates on 12 VDC and one that operates on 120 VAC is the ballast. The tubes are the same. By reballasting you can change the voltage and choose AC or DC.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 12:28am - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: rugercpl wired similar to a standard grid-tied house.
Does that mean there is a "bond" between the neutral wire and the ground inside the service panel? That is the normal practice by NEC code.
Both the Honda EU's and an inverter with a plug in receptacle built into it should have the neutral-ground bond within the unit. That is also by NEC. So with the Honda EU or an approved plug in inverter there should be no bond in the panel.
Just something to have a look at. If present in both places that can cause havoc with some electronic devices such as GFCI's at times. Damage too.
I have found that some inverters are more sensitive to wiring faults than most generators, including the Honda EU's. Don't know why.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2014 09:27am
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Quoting: razmichael Bypass the dimmer and test. At least you will find or eliminate a cause.
Have you tried this?
Although it is hard to see how/why using the inverter you have this problem, dimming LEDS (and LEDs in general) are far more complex than the old incandescent bulbs. Lutron has a very interesting (okay - I'm bored at the moment) white paper on LED drivers and dimmers.
Lutron Paper
Net search will also come up with many cases of problems with LED flickering, poor dimming etc - and the impact this can have on the rest of the system. The fact that a dimmer is considered "LED Friendly" does not really confirm how it will work with specific LED lights (and the corresponding drivers).
Along with the suggestion from MtnDon to check the general wiring, remove the dimmer from the equation and see what happens.
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rugercpl
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2014 09:46am
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I'll try bypassing the dimmer. As far as a "bond" with the neutral and ground wire in the panel box...that's a question for a licensed electrician to decipher...and not something I can afford right now. I can take a picture of the panel box and post it if that would help?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2014 10:22am - Edited by: MtnDon
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Look for a green screw that is in the neutral buss bar (white wire). If there is a green colored screw in that bar that means the neutral wire(s) and the ground(s) are bonded. That is normal in a normal grid tie building. There is supposed to only be one such bond in the buildings electrical system. If there is no green screw in that neutral bar then there is no bond if all else is normal and correct.
If this was wired by an electrician the probability of a bond being present is quite high.
As was stated earlier most inverters and small generators will have an internal bond. With two bonds in a system problems can arise.
You can use a multimeter to check for a bond in the inverter or generator. With the items OFF, no power on at all, check for continuity between the ground lug on the receptacle and the wide slot, which is the white neutral wire. If the meter shows continuity between those there is an internal bond. IF the inverter has a built in transfer switch the above test may not be valid and a wiring diagram would have to be consulted. Or a call made to customer service.
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rugercpl
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2014 11:02am
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My panel box...don't see a green screw...a green wire yes
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2014 02:26pm
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You can always use a multimeter to check if there is conductivity between neutral and ground, just in case the screw is hidden. But the green screws are usually reasonably easy to find. The meter is a sure fire method though.
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rugercpl
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# Posted: 29 Aug 2014 07:38pm - Edited by: rugercpl
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Quoting: razmichael Bypass the dimmer and test. At least you will find or eliminate a cause.
I bypassed the dimmer and sure enough it solved the problem however i can't dim the lights then obviously. i bought a replacement dimmer to see if it was a bad dimmer...this new one is also a Lutron but it appears to be a newer style boasting its functionality with CFL's and LED's on the package. This new dimmer is a 150 watt versus the 600 watt of the older one i replaced....the LED tracks come in well under 100 watts on their brightest setting. With the new dimmer i am now able to dim my LED track lighting lower (which is very nice), however the problem persisted with the blinking light show when trying to run the LED outdoor flood lights, simultaneously with my indoor LED track lights. I think that if I dim the track lights to a certain brightness, that they will work with one or more of the floods turned on, but i haven't had consistant trials to test that.
When the "light show" is happening, the true sine wave inverter is literally pulsing on and off at a very high rate of speed. the flood lights usually blink rapidly and the track lights either dont come on or blink as well. I'm afraid this is going to kill the LED drivers and other electronics plugged into other outlets. The entire electrical system in the cabin gets effected from this.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 29 Aug 2014 10:47pm
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At a loss but suspect you have a compatibility issue between the dimmer type and tracks. If the dimmer is not made to be compatible with the led drivers and how they implement dimming then weird things will happen. How it is impacting the inverter is interesting to say the least but when you look at the many ways a dimmer can function you can see how it could cause an impact on an AC circuit. Do you have a way to borrow a different inverter ( even a smaller one) and try it out?
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rugercpl
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# Posted: 29 Aug 2014 11:04pm - Edited by: rugercpl
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No sir I don't have another inverter. Both dimmers claim to be LED friendly though...and they both work fine to dim the LED track lights...it's when I turn on an outdoor LED flood light which are all on a standard light switch...the funk happens
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razmichael
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# Posted: 30 Aug 2014 06:11am
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Quoting: rugercpl Both dimmers claim to be LED friendly though
This is all just speculation I'm afraid. Claiming to be LED friendly will not insure they work with the particular LEDs. I assume the track lighting is supposed to be dimmable? Bottom line is that unless LED drivers are matched to the dimmer type specifically, it may work or may not work properly. You clearly have an issue with the dimmer/track combination but other than that, I don't know what to suggest.
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creeky
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# Posted: 30 Aug 2014 08:46am
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Ditch something. Dimmer. Outdoor light.
From my experience, if your inverter is pulsing rapidly it's not the leds you need to worry about. It's blowing up your inverter.
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rugercpl
Member
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# Posted: 30 Aug 2014 10:26am
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I think I'm just going to not use the outdoor floods anymore at the same time as the indoor tracks. Outdoor floods I installed to see the zombies walking in but so far.....no zombies
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razmichael
Member
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# Posted: 30 Aug 2014 12:53pm
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My concern (again only speculation) is the
Problem may still exist to a lesser
Degree if the underlying cause is the dimmer (and the additional load or something with the floods just makes it more obvious, and, as Creeky suggests, you may be damaging the inverter. Are the tracks and floods on the same circuit?
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