|
| Author |
Message |
rugercpl
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Aug 2014 10:19pm
Reply
Hello all, I recently bought one of those kenmore compact refridgerators that you see on Youtube that use very little power (about 30 watts) once cool. I was lucky to find one since from all I gathered, theyd been discontinued. It has a separate freezer door that holds at least 4 half-gallons of ice cream or whatever you freeze. I liked it, but I wanted more refridgerator space. Sooooo, I swapped it out with a Vissani from Home Depot which has more space and fit into my cabin kitchen perfectly. here's the link to the fridge...
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Vissani-4-5-cu-ft-Mini-Refrigerator-in-Stainless-Look-ENER GY-STAR-HVDR450SE/203439004
being a solar newb...without any real technical knowledge of electrical systems, i figured this Vissani would be of similar power consumption. Actually, the energy star rating was BETTER than the kenmore and claims the Vissani uses less electricity annually
So here's why I'm writing....I purchased on Ebay 4 of those blue ice packs. They are about 7" x 10" x 1". When I get to the cabin for my weekly long-weekend excursions, I run my generator for about 3-4 hours while I get settled in. During these few hours I am topping off my battery bank, chilling the refridgerator and freezer, listening to music, unpacking some clothes and groceries, and just winding down from the stress of my job. The groceries I bring go into the refridgerator during this time to get chilled down. I put the 4 ice packs in the freezer and within 3-4 hours they get frozen solid. At this point I turn the generator off and run on battery power. I turn the refridgerator dial to zero which turns off the cooling system but allows for the light bulb to work when you open the fridge
well lucky for me, these 4 ice packs just happen to fit perfectly against the back wall inside of the refridgerator stacked side by side and on top of each other like four squares together making one bigger square. the radiant cooling from these four ice packs keeps the refridgerator at about 35 degrees for up to 24 hours. Its amazing. The only downside is that once the fridge is off, the freezer warms up making it impossible to keep frozen food frozen or to make ice, but thats just fine with me since I dont have to have that. It keeps the fridge food cold which is what I'm after.
What also helps is additional radiant cooling as you all know. I have a slight dependency on canned flavored seltzer..particularly Schweppes which is sold by the case not far from the cabin. During the 3-4 hours the fridge and freezer is chilling by generator power, I pack as many cans of seltzer in the fridge that will fit. When the fridge is chilled and the generator is off and the cans are cold, these 35 degree cans also help to keep the fridge cold longer.
Im sure other folks are employing similar tricks, I'm just lucky to have these blue ice packs a perfect fit inside the Vissani fridge.
|
|
rayyy
Member
|
# Posted: 24 Aug 2014 08:34am
Reply
I once tried to use a small apartment size electric refrigerator in my camper.I had a fully charged marine battery and a 1000 watt inverter.My goal was to have refrigeration for a period of 24 hours but the battery went low in about 10 hours sending the inverter into alarm.Now I have a little propane gas frig that requires no electricity.The down side is that it is only 2 cubic foot inside.Not a lot of room.I have a Norcold N410UR gas,12 volt or 120 volt frig in my cabin that's 4 1/2 cubic foot with a little freezer compartment.When on propane it does need a 12 volt supply to run the electronic controls.I have been very pleased with that.That has worked flawlessly now for 4 years.
|
|
Laser Boy
Member
|
# Posted: 2 Jan 2015 08:45pm - Edited by: Laser Boy
Reply
I have in my cabin a Norcold N51 2 way(Propane or 120 volt), it's 5.5 cubic feet with a freezer compartment. It requires 12 volt power supply regardless of running mode to run the temperature control circuit.
Only issue I have ever had is if you run in Automatic mode(default 120 electric) and you aren't actually hooked up to 120 volt supply, it runs in LP gas mode, if the burner should fail to light just once it switches back to electric mode and shuts down because 110v supply isn't available. Since I now only run in LP mode it will reset itself and try to re-light up to three times. Hasn't shut down since I switched it to the LP mode and if I should plug into the generator(while working on propane system) I just manually switch it to electric mode.
The 12 volt battery (100AH) to run it is charged with a 55 watt solar array and stays charged even in December here in Maine! I am fortunate to have a local propane company that believes in customer service and if I should need a 100 lb. cylinder or two in the winter they will drag them in to my cabin in the woods (1/2 mile) on a sled in the winter at no extra cost. I am extremely pleased with the performance of this refrigerator.
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 3 Jan 2015 05:13am
Reply
So a regular AC fridge (even a small Energy Star one) really drains the battery bank quickly?   I was planning on getting a solar-powered fridge but someone recommended saving the coin and going with a small, regular fridge and using the savings toward extra panels and batts. Now I'm confused.
I was looking at a 7.4 cu. ft. Danby AC fridge that sips electric (it's Energy Star) and thought if I turned it way down overnight with ice in the freezer section, I'd be fine. I'm planning on a 1.8 kW off-grid system that would run the fridge, two LED lights, a water pump from my tank, and a flat-panel TV for a couple of hours per day. I'm getting separate solar chargers for my laptop and phone. I'll have a generator, of course.
Should I be looking at the solar fridge again? Or maybe an Atwood helium 2-way fridge I discovered recently?
|
|
780
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 03:09am - Edited by: 780
Reply
I am going to be replacing a fridge...I am getting a danby I think it is the 10 cuft model with a freezer, cant remember the specs for sure but 290kwhs a year comes to mind. This is what I will be doing. it may work for your situation.
You will need to get a aftermarket control..NOT a solid state one but one from a manufacturer like johnston controls, or maybe its johnson controls, they come prewired if I remember right. You will also need a timer, again NOT solid state rather a mechanical timer,Plug the timer into the wall set the timer so it runs roughly 8 am to 10 pm (roughly or whatever you like)
Plug the control into the timer pluged into the wall, the fridge into the control. run the bulb from the new control into the fridge compartment (you can drill, or better yet just run it through the door opening the gasket will seal around it fine) and duct tape it to the side wall inside, though if you open your fridge a lot you might want to have the bulb part in a glass of water just for less cycling.
Fill the freezer part with jugs of water. Now the fridge has its own thermostat control and what I have found is this control opens up a opening that lets cold air drop from the freezer compartment to the fridge compartment, you will need to play with this a bit but once you get it set right you will have the fridge keeping the ice frozen, this frozen ice is now your thermal battery, that lets you coast overnight without power. With your fridge set up like this you will be running it mostly of the sun, not off your batteries. Yes you have to be a little handy but this isnt rocket science. Yes I drilled through the side to put the bulb into this one, but if your not confident doing that run it through the door opening, that will be fine. ....Just what works for me
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 10:47am
Reply
Julie2. are you talking 1.8 kw of solar panels? and what sized battery pack?
To anyone looking to live off grid full time or a reasonable amount thereof. Here's the advice I have posted many times ...
Depending on your battery size it is easiest and cheapest to use a regular small fridge. (for Julie2, the Danby in 10 cu ft uses less power as 780 points out). sometimes the bigger fridges have more insulation. check the energy guides. be aware that your fridge will use less power than the energy guide suggests. they test at 75 degrees F and uses multiple door openings...
I have measured my fridge electric consumption. in the winter it uses 500 watts a day (cold at night when the wood stove burns down), and about 800 during the summer.
rayyy mentioned testing a fridge on a system that used one marine battery. this is an exceptionally small amount of stored power. laughable for fridge use. but who has one tiny battery as solar storage? even the smallest systems we see here are two 6v in series, probably 5x the storage. this was not really a valid test.
So would be full timers, don't worry. If you get a reasonable sized battery pack you'll be fine. and the money you save on propane alone ... my regular fridge has paid for itself and has saved me an additional $240 just in propane costs. That it cost $400 delivered saved me 600-1600 over any other kind of fridge just on the purchase.
A well planned solar system is where your money should go.
Then you can forget the freezing ice packs, use power as you need it, and live the good off grid life worry free. Cue the butterflies.
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 04:14pm
Reply
Yeah, Creeky, that would be 1.8 in panels and I'm thinking at least 6 batteries, depending on the size and such. I'm leaving that to the solar company to figure out (although I do want something of a working knowledge so I can ask questions!)
Phew, I got a bit worried when I read this thread! So, you think I could go with the Danby 10 instead of the 7.4?
That's pretty cool, 780!!!! I'm not very mechanical but I think I could manage that. Without the drilling, lol.
|
|
Scott G
Member
|
# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 09:43pm
Reply
780, sounds interesting but Im confused...
The after market control is for the fridge or the light? Is it a thermostat control? Just kinda not sure what you're explaining, sorry. Sounds really interesting though.
Creeky: +1
|
|
|
780
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 02:40am
Reply
I guess I wasnt clear...I dont have time right now but will return later and try to be clearer.
|
|
old greybeard
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 07:17am
Reply
My Dometic propane fridge is the best item we've bought.
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 11:15am - Edited by: creeky
Reply
Julie2, if your solar system is that large you don't need the freezer pack / overnight no electric to the fridge device. your battery pack will barely notice the 250 to 500 watts the fridge will use.
Oh. and I have the 10 cu ft and it works great.
As for lead acid, I would go 8 batteries (I have 6 for a 12v pack at 1180amps, working well for 4 years) and then build out at 24v. Eh. you learn stuff.
But I also wouldn't buy 8 batteries at all. I would get an LFP battery pack from Balqon and not have to think about my batteries again for 10 years. It's much better value/cost when amortized. For around $4k you can get their 9kw unit which would give you the same power use as the 8 lead acid batteries without any of the hassle wiring. Nor long term maintenance. Plus longer lifespan. No storage hassles. etc etc. I've talked about this many times, so ...
Amortized it's about 35 bucks a month for LFP over a 10 year period.
and then you can buy an 18 cu ft double door ice making song singing super fridge if you want.
|
|
Scott G
Member
|
# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 04:01pm - Edited by: Scott G
Reply
780 - no rush but appreciated.
creeky - gonna look into that LFP battery pack from Balqon idea...sounds interesting. The song singing super fridge sounds cool too. X)
Just did. They also offer a small size, smaller price tag option.
http://www.balqon.com/store-2/#!/Lithium-Battery-Storage-5-2-kwhr-3-week-Lead-Time/p/ 39553969/category=2860254
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 8 Jan 2015 12:22pm
Reply
Nice to see Balqon expanding the product line. That battery Scott gives you 2.5kw of useful power. pretty much the same as my 14kw lead acid battery pack. But with no maintenance and a longer life.
Julie2 take note. and the nice thing. if, in two or three years, you decide you want more power storage ... you can parallel in another unit without compromising its life. lfp rules.
plus it's plug and play. you'll save a tonne in cables and installation time. and, of course, 1/5th the weight. no off gassing...
one thing I have learned about lfp. it's best if you charge them at or above 32F or 0C. tho. obviously folks do charge them colder.
why. why is my lead acid battery pack still working perfectly well. I want to get a lfp pack. perhaps I could forget a couple of watering intervals (with respect to spencerin).
anybody out there in Ontario who wants a lead acid battery pack, 1180 amp hrs, only 4 years new, excellent starter pack. has 2-4 years of prime life left. let me know. will deliver for gas. comes with cables.
|
|
MtnDon
Member
|
# Posted: 8 Jan 2015 04:44pm - Edited by: MtnDon
Reply
Quoting: creeky ... it's best if you charge them at or above 32F or 0C. tho. obviously folks do charge them colder.
I know someone in CA who has a Balqon pack, forget which one but it is a larger one than the 5.2 that was linked to. His experience has been that at or below 32 F the recharge is excruciatingly long. His estimation is the charge proceeds at maybe 10 - 20% of the rate that occurs at 50 F. Much slower than charging a lead acid battery at the same low temperatures. That is my main complaint other than the initial out of pocket expense (at this time). Balquon's claim that their batteries have an "Operating Temperature -45 deg C to 65 Deg C" is misleading at best. They can be discharged at very cold temperatures but not effectively recharged. Some other LFP batery brands are more honest in their temperature range by stating the 32 F and lower problems with regards to charging. Yes, when designing a new system with LFP in mind, the temperature range may not be as important. One can design the system with the LFP pack inside the heated envelope. That is a problem when retrofitting LFP into a system that was designed around exterior FLA battery storage.
Maybe it's just me but I get upset with companies that bend the facts to suit their own marketing purposes. Call me grumpy if you want.
One other point, a heads up if you will.... The electrical connection points are threaded holes in aluminum terminal material. The aluminum is not all that thick. Do not overtighten. It is easy to strip out a thread if one applies the same torque as one might do with the fasteners used on conventional lead acid batteries. Best to use a torque tool.
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Jan 2015 01:10pm
Reply
creeky,
I was reading the literature on the lfp. That is awesome! So I would only need that ONE battery and have 5.2 kW of power storage. Wow! That's what I'm doing.
I can't find info on whether these require special inverters or charge controllers. Do you know?
Thanks!
Julie
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Jan 2015 01:21pm
Reply
Not to go massively off topic
Balqon themselves state that you must charge at 32F / 0C or higher temps.
If you search posts with LFP or lithium ferrous phosphate you should find my concise ;) argument on the benefits of LFP and why I think it's ideal for us off grid full timers.
Interestingly, princeton university researchers released a study after I wrote that post and agreed with me. not that I'm braggin' or anything. 
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Jan 2015 01:39pm
Reply
Julie. The inverter is the same as what you would use otherwise.
And any good quality charge controller will do the trick. You will need to change the charge settings to meet the charge characteristics of LFP. All good CCs let you do this. I would contact the CC manufacturer and see if they'll do a program for you. They must be getting a lot of requests for this now.
Oh, and don't buy/plug in the temperature gauge. You don't need to change voltage with different temps. Neat. I guess you could still plug it in, as long as you turn off the rule that changes the charge voltage as the batteries get colder.
Btw. Is there an "I'm so jealous" emoticon?
|
|
Scott G
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Jan 2015 05:05pm
Reply
Im still about two years out till full time...ill be watching this tech for sure.
|
|
MtnDon
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Jan 2015 05:28pm
Reply
Quoting: creeky Balqon themselves state that you must charge at 32F / 0C or higher temps.
Good, it's just that they didn't seem to publish that on the sales data page for their packs. They list the operating range there and it is misleading. They also ignored two requests via email for info on charge temperatures. That also did not impress me. Maybe I expect too much from customer service.
|
|
toyota_mdt_tech
Member
|
# Posted: 9 Jan 2015 09:18pm
Reply
RugerCPL, I love that fridge and I am going to get the same unit for my cabin too. And the icepaks, do you still have the link to the ebay seller?
|
|
Julie2Oregon
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Jan 2015 06:20am
Reply
Creeky, I'm going to start a new post about the Balqon LFP battery. I've diverted enough from the fridge. Sorry, guys!!!!
But with this amount of battery storage, I think I will go with the Danby 10 cu. ft. since it's energy-efficient, anyway. Why is it that the bigger ones use less power than the tiny ones, btw? Is it the amount of insulation, compressor, etc.?
|
|
Just
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Jan 2015 08:05am
Reply
We had a Danby 10 , found it too small for our family of 6 , now
have a full size but we are on grid.. The Danby is is not frost free
[no fan ] so requires defrosting .
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Jan 2015 11:12am
Reply
that's "Just" funny. I have the 10cu and I find it small for one person. tho. i do have to many cooking concoctions in there. sauces, ketchups, three kinds of mustard. I gotta stop.
my 10 cu is frost free tho. so Julie you might want to check the model. maybe its the newer ones have more features.
i don't know why some bigger models are more efficient. some of the new small danby's are incredibly efficient. probably insulation. but i'm guessing. I saw a GE??? that was 17 cu ft and claimed to use 300 kw/annually. that's better than my fridge (311). So not sure why. so check the energuides.
|
|
LastOutlaw
Member
|
# Posted: 1 Feb 2015 02:57pm
Reply
We are using a chest freezer modified to run as a fridge. We have used it on a number of week long stays at the cabin and never had a problem running it from our 6 battery bank. The fridge pulls around 300 watts a day and will freeze items stored in the very bottom. When I get to the cabin I put everything into baskets in the fridge and bag up the ice in my cooler and lay it in the bottom. When I leave i put the same ice back into my cooler for the drive home.
|
|
Ruggles
Member
|
# Posted: 1 Feb 2015 04:04pm
Reply
You just do the standard thermostat thing you see around the net? I've wondered how effective that is.
|
|
LastOutlaw
Member
|
# Posted: 1 Feb 2015 04:35pm
Reply
Yes, I bought one from Amazon. ran about $20.00 Used chest freezer from Craigslist cost me $50.00.
So far it works well for us.
May need to rethink once we move in full time though for more storage space. Don't know yet
|
|
Ruggles
Member
|
# Posted: 4 Feb 2015 01:36pm
Reply
Quoting: LastOutlaw Yes, I bought one from Amazon. ran about $20.00 Used chest freezer from Craigslist cost me $50.00.
So do you have a whole cabin inverter it's plugged into? I run everything off 12 Volt direct from the batteries, so I would need a stand alone inverter for the freezer.
I'll have to figure out how big I would need for the surge when the compressor kicks.
|
|
LastOutlaw
Member
|
# Posted: 5 Feb 2015 03:51pm
Reply
Ruggles... right now all I use is a 2000 watt 12v to 120 inverter from harbor freight for everything. Cost about $130.00 on sale. Don't believe that it will go anywhere near 4000 watts though. I doubt it will do even 2000 watts without freaking out. It does handle the fridge and a few led light bulbs with no problem though.
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/power-inverters/2000-watt-continuo us4000-watt-peak-power-inverter-69662.html
|
|
|
