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ryan14
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# Posted: 6 Aug 2014 12:44pm
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Hello,
Does anyone know if it is against the law to not have running water at my cabin in PA? A "neighbor" has turned us in because he says we can't spend the night in a building that does not have running water. This sounds absurd. I say "neighbor" because our cabin is on one hill side and his is on another with a hollow between us. By road we are literally atleast 2 miles from each other but as the crow flies we have a straight shot of each other. I've never met this guy or caused him any problems. he used to be on the township committee and is constantly sticking his nose where it doesnt belong. This is a cabin - nothing more. We spend the weekends there and bring gallons of water up with us and barely even use them. I am just trying to figure out what department to contact or some facts so I have a leg to stand on so I don't end up getting fined or something.
Any help would be appreciated
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Aug 2014 04:06pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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The building codes do not dictate this, it is dictated by local laws and planning ordinances. For instance, where I am, they will allow you to stay on the property no more than 17 days without a septic system, if you have a septic system but no approved water source, you can stay 4 months. To have a permanent residence, you have to have both a septic and an approved water source.
An approved water source means it is approved by the local health department, such as a properly constructed well, or water from a spring or creek if properly taken from them. They have their rules.
You say he 'turned you in', so that means you were contacted by the local jurisdiction, right? If so, ask them exactly what the rules are. If you have not been contacted by them, wait until you are, anything you do will draw attention.
How do you know he turned you in?
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ryan14
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# Posted: 6 Aug 2014 04:27pm
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The woman in charge of sewage in this township is an acquaintance of our family. She told us he filed a complaint with her. She told us she hasn't taken the next step with it yet because she knows how he is (difficult) but told us if he pushes the issue she would have to take the next steps. Not sure what the next steps are she is referring to.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Aug 2014 06:30pm
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I suggest you do nothing, whatever you do could bring attention. Usually, once a jurisdiction has a complaint or documented knowledge of a violation, they are legally obligated to do something about it. The fact that she didn't yet shows reason and common sense, rather than just following the rules regardless. But if you take an action that forces the issue, you may force their hand.
If you can talk to her, see if you can find out what the specific rules are that come into play. Get out the local codes and read them for yourself. There may be several relevant rules in different parts of the local ordinances. There may be a lot more to it than you know now, and you may find something that works in your favor.
Good luck. Nasty neighbors is certainly the worst aspect of property ownership, and code enforcement public servants know this and avoid it when they can. But they have to enforce the laws or they can be fired. The woman you spoke with is taking a bit of a risk for you, try to keep her on your side.
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ChuckDynasty
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# Posted: 6 Aug 2014 07:06pm
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Quoting: ryan14 A "neighbor" has turned us in because he says we can't spend the night in a building that does not have running water.
Pitch a tent and say thats where you spend the night...you like roughing it, the big shed is to store or display your stuff.  Fence and gate your property and post no trespassing signs.
I would see if they have any info online first before asking anyone any questions. How is the property zoned...residential, seasonal, recreational etc.? That may have some bearing on its use.
You can or have someone make calls for you and say your looking at property in the area that's for sale and ask all the questions you have without giving up who you are, and go from there.
P.S. and you never know who's reading online forums.
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ILFE
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 07:00am
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What a lonely person this "neighbor" must be. He lives some distance from you, yet wants to stick his nose in business that does not concern him.
I would pity him, for being the person he is.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 09:01am
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In my area, a cabin doesnt need running water, but it must have an outhouse built to tight specs. Its required. If you have a well on the property, working or not, you have to have a septic, still, no running water required (I know, how does a septic system work with no water)
But you can not be in it more than 60 days a year. Otherwise, its not a recreational structure, but a home and also taxed at a higher rate. That can vary from area to area.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 09:03am
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Quoting: ILFE What a lonely person this "neighbor" must be. He lives some distance from you, yet wants to stick his nose in business that does not concern him.
There seems to be one in every neighborhood. I'm fortunate my home or my cabin area is chocked full of very nice non nosy people.
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old greybeard
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 01:13pm
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I assume its either a recreational cabin, or a cabin built before the new building code.
I'm in PA, running water is not needed.
I assume you have a outhouse?
Be aware that grey water discharge is NOT allowed, and they will cite you for it if they want. Lots of us get away with it if the local Sewage officer turns a blind eye. But if someone is complaining it will be a issue.
The rule is that without a waste system, septic or sandmound, all water carried into your cabin must be carried out and dumped into the holding tank of your privy. Can't even be dumped on the ground.
I'd keep a low profile, ignore him, and avoid being obvious about dumping shower and dishwater.
Good Luck.
BTW do you feel like sharing the county and township?
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ryan14
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 01:28pm
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It is a 14x32 "camping cabin" (named by the company that built it) built off site and trailered to our land - built earlier this year. We only come up on the weekends although my wife would LOVE to live here full time.
We were told we needed a land-use permit to put it there and that's all that was said about permits.
As far as outhouse - yes we have one. But there is no hole in the ground or land contamination. I used a 55 gallon drum and built a seat around it and checked with a local porta-potty company - they will be able to suck it out when needed for us. It's basically a glorified porta-john.
We usually bring 4 1-gallon jugs of water with us and end up only using it for watering the flowers my wife planted. If we shower we go to her moms house nearby.
It is in Bedford County. I'd rather keep the township name out of it for now as an earlier poster reminded me they can very well be reading this forum too.
Really, the only issue this guy has is claiming we can not occupy a building overnight without running water.
I don't see how this is any different than tent camping.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 02:17pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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It doesn't make sense to me that the local rule would be that you can not stay overnight if you don't have running water. Usually the issue of greatest concern is sanitation, so the first thing they require is a septic system or other solution (perhaps like your contained outhouse) so that you aren't throwing sewage or other waste water on the ground where animals and people might get exposed. If you did have running water, but no septic, then by definition you would have to throw the water on the ground. If you have septic but no running water, at least you have a way to dispose of any water you manage to get onto the parcel. But who knows what their reasoning might be.
So anyway, as I said before, I think you need to know exactly what the rules are by researching it. Don't take your neighbor's word for it, we already know his thinking is skewed.
Did you get the land use permit when you had the cabin delivered? Exactly what does that permit allow you to do?
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CaptCanuck
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# Posted: 7 Aug 2014 04:48pm - Edited by: CaptCanuck
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People are strange, I can relate. We have a neighbor that clearly resents our presence on what used to be vacant land. He got so used to seeing our property as an extension of his that now that we are here to stay, he feels like we have taken something from him.
Chuck beat me to it. Pitch a little tent when you're there and tell them that's where you sleep. Certainly you're entitled to camp on your own property.
How would your neighbor prove otherwise without trespassing? The inspector certainly won't be coming out after dark to lurk in your bushes and confirm your neighbor's allegations.
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sparky1
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 08:25am
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if you have a portable potty---I would think you would (NOT) "Have to have" running water.
personally I think He's Tresspassing.
sparky1
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 09:22am - Edited by: PA_Bound
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ryan14- this is interesting. I'm in PA also (actually Bedford county), but have never heard that I need running water for my cabin. I have a "Recreational Cabin Affidavit" for my cabin, that I obtained from the Township, and nobody has ever told me I need running water. In fact, if I had running water at my cabin, I was told by the sewer authority I would need a full septic system- as opposed to the privy that I would be allowed if the cabin had no running water. And after several discussions and meetings with the authority, this was never mentioned.
I'm wondering if your neighbor is confusing this with a full-time, residential property. For those familiar with permits and construction phases, if this was permitted as house would it need water to spend a night in it?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 02:07pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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A full time residence needs both an approved water source and an approved water disposal method. In rural areas the question then becomes, what will they allow in less-than-full-residential situations such as weekend cabins. Rules vary a lot from one jurisdiction to another.
Makes sense that they would allow you to use an outhouse if you don't have running water. If you have running water, the waste has to go somewhere.
What exactly is this 'recreational cabin affidavit', how does it limit what you can do, and what rights does it give you?
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 05:19pm
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In Pennsylvania, it is possible to build a recreational-use cabin that is exempted from the UCC building codes by submitting a completed, notarized form (known as "UCC-13 Recreational Cabin Affidavit") to the municipality. Being exempt from the UCC means that the material and method of construction is not regulated, but the structure must still comply with all other local, county, and state laws.
The limitations of option are that the cabin can be utilized for recreational activities only and cannot be:
•Used as a domicile or residence by anyone for any period of time
•Used for any commercial purposes
•Exceed two stories in height
•Used as a place of employment
•Used as a mailing address for bills or correspondence
•Listed as any individual's place of residence on a tax return, driver's license, vehicle registration or voter registration
The other caveats are that the cabin must be equipped with at least one smoke detector, one fire extinguisher and one carbon monoxide detector in both the kitchen and sleeping quarters, and this big one:
•Upon the transfer of ownership of a recreational cabin, written notice must be provided in the sales agreement and the deed that it is exempt from the act, it may not be in conformance with the UCC, and is not subject to municipal regulation. Failure to comply with the notice requirements shall render the sale void at the purchaser's option
But for cabins that are built for only for recreational use, and will never be used as a residence, this is a great tool for complying with the law without the burdens associated with building to UCC codes.
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ChuckDynasty
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 05:25pm - Edited by: ChuckDynasty
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http://www.paconstructioncodesacademy.org/pdfs/Rec_Cabin_Exclusion_Form.pdf
I never heard of it either. Thanks Google.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 05:57pm
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So on the one hand it cannot be used as a domicile for any period of time, but they require that you put a smoke detector in sleeping areas. Is there a specific time restriction on how many nights one can stay in the building.
This may not help our original poster, because the affidavit states that you still must conform to other local rules, which may or may not prohibit sleeping in a cabin based upon water or septic issues.
The plot thickens.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 07:05pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Section 403.1 of the PA code is where this comes from:
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/034/chapter403/s403.1.html
Which says all buildings must be built to the code, with certain exceptions, one of which is a rec cabin. The definition of a rec cabin says that it is not used as a domicile or residence for any period of time. The problem is that the difference between using a building for a period of time as a domicile or residence, and using a building as a rec cabin, is not defined. So when does use of the building make it a domicile rather than a rec cabin? They didn't say 'staying more than two weeks' or something like that. It's not defined and therefore left up to the discretion of whoever has jurisdictional authority.
It's odd that they require smoke detectors in sleeping areas of rec cabins, which assumes that there are sleeping areas, but also say that it cannot be used as a domicile for any period of time. A basic definition of domicile is that it is where you sleep.
So, whether deliberately or not, the law is vague on this point, but if you can convince the authorities that it is strictly rec use and not a domicile, the affidavit allows you to have a building that doesn't meet code requirements, but that's all it does.
But other local laws requiring septic or water could prevent you from staying in the rec cabin at all, even though the affidavit let you build it without the codes. Still, getting the affidavit would be a wise first step in any case, so they can't get you for building without following the building code.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 07:10pm
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I thought I read that there was a number of days maximum per year that a rec cabin could be occupied to qualify. A few years ago, that is. Could be changed or my memory is off. I believe I read that right on the application form.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 07:14pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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The affidavit form linked to above does not have that. I scanned 403.1 PA code specifically for that time definition, did not find it there nor in the definition of a rec cabin in 401. If it exists it is elsewhere.
Seems absurd that that time definition would not exist, but welcome to the fun world of legalese.
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ChuckDynasty
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 08:43pm - Edited by: ChuckDynasty
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Quoting: bldginsp domicile for any period of time. A basic definition of domicile is that it is where you sleep.
You know more than I do for sure but a quick google of domicile comes up with "domicile is the status or attribution of being a permanent resident in a particular jurisdiction' Online definitions seem to point to a main or full time residence.
So could it just mean living there full time. I always look forward to reading your posts.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 09:02pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Thanks for the compliment. I'm not always sure that I am proud of having learned to think legalistically because of my job.
The trouble with defining domicile as full time residence is, how do you define full time? You and I know what it is, it's when you consider the place your home and that's where your stuff is. But if someone lived in a cabin for six weeks, then the local building department had to decide if it was residential or recreational use, and the resident (or transient) stated that he did not consider this his permanent residence, then how do you decide? That's why you need as clear definitions in the law as possible. But even when you do, you'll run into situations that don't fit the rules, and small cabins are usually right there between this definition and that one.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2014 10:39pm - Edited by: PA_Bound
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Not being one to trust anything on line without a confirming second reference, I pulled out my trusty, book-bound, American Heritage Dictionary. The second definition listed for "domicile" is "One's legal residence". Couple that with the restrictions about not using it for a mailing address or place of residence, and I think that's really the restriction. You must have someplace else to use for those purposes, and a P.O. Box doesn't work (for tax returns, or drivers licenses/car registrations, etc.).
But, to the point, that does not remove your requirement to abide other laws so that does not necessarily address the original question. My experience in the OP's county does not match what he was told- although I may be in a different township. But the sewer authority I worked with covers the entire county, so I think they would have jurisdiction- and never did they tell me I had to have water in the cabin. In fact, without a complete septic system, they told me just the opposite. I would be in violation if I did have running water in my cabin.
For a second opinion on what the OP was told by the township, I would contact the Bedford County Township & Borough Sanitary Corporation. They have enforcement authority in Bedford County, and I would think would know about this. Below is their contact info:
Phone: (814) 623-6498
Email: bctbsc@embarqmail.com
website: http://www.bedfordsanitarycorp.com
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Shadyacres
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 08:18pm
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I know when I started building my cabin in PA , I was told that I could get an affidavit and forgo the building permit. But than I could not live in the cabin if I so desire at some point. That is why I build it to code and also if I ever decide to sell it I am sure I will be glad I spent the $670.00 for the permit. Although my taxes will be higher since I went with a permit.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 09:25pm
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Shadyacres- what were you told about requirements for having running water or septic?
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Shadyacres
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 09:50pm
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I didn't even inquire because I knew I would go with the inspection process when they told me that I could not live there if I didn't go thru inspection. They did not say anything about needing water though. The things I remember them saying are basically what (PA-bound) stated in a previous reply. That could have come up though if I went thru with no inspection though, although I know of many a cabin in PA with no water per say.
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Out there
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# Posted: 11 Oct 2019 07:09pm
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If we are talking definitions, what is the definition of “running water�
A 5 gal. Water container with a spout filling a balloon to launch at a trespassing neighbor who can’t keep his or her nose on their own face...
I got your running water right here.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2019 07:59am
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This thread is 5yrs old. Im sure they figured it out by now.
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