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creeky
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2014 08:58am
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http://www.balqon.com/store-2/#!/~/product/category=2860254&id=34783145
This is a 9 kw battery system ideal for small off grid solar systems. Because it's lithium-ion it's equivalent to a 20 kw/h lead acid battery. But way smaller, lighter, and easier to maintain. Although the maintenance aspect is still to be seen.
Lithium has a host of other benefits. Faster charging - for those cloudy, short days. Longer cycle life. Wider temp range. Ultra low self discharge.
And because lithium supports 80% depth of discharge reliably vs 20 to 50% for lead acid it plays above its size.
If I was buying a new battery pack today this would be my choice.
Wow. This is cool. And might I add. Yippee!
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2014 10:34am
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Lithium is a very cool technology. Ever see one burn?
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bobrok
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# Posted: 23 Jun 2014 12:54pm
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Ultra-Life Corporation, HQ'd in my little town, makes both lithium and lithium-ion batteries. You've probably seen their 9v commercial batteries in the supermarket but they are also a huge military supplier.
The FD pays somewhat regular visits, although they haven't burned down just yet.
I checked their website URL but I don't know enough about this to tell if they have a rechargeable battery that could be used for the above purposes. Some of them look powerful.
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creeky
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2014 01:00pm
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dillio. ever seen a lead acid battery explosion victim? far more of them. and if you'd gone to the site you'd have seen it's a LFP or lithium iron phosphate battery pack.
One of the key advantages of LFP vs "consumer" lithium ion is its propensity not to light on fire.
For more notable benefits in comparison to traditional lead acid; Let's have a little Lead Acid vs Lithium Iron Phosphate r-r-r-r-r-rrrrrruMBLE
Round 1:
The contender LFP leads out with
- 9kw battery pack (as seen above) has 4.5 daily use kw and can go to 7. 10,000 times. That's 27 years of expected life use in a solar system.
LA staggers, hits back with
lead acid battery pack (mine) (15kw) has 3 kw daily use (at 20% DOD). It will get a hoped for 3,000 cycles. Or 8 years.
Ooooooo. Round one to LFP by a resounding margin. Not even close folks.
Round two:
LA loses charge daily and can be damaged by not charging for a period of months.
LFP comes back with a year on the shelf life with no problems.
It's a definite round 2 win for LFP.
Round 3:
LA needs wiring. cables and lugs. Watering. Maintenance.
LFP battery pack comes complete. Needs no watering. And is much smaller/takes up less space/doesn't offgas.
Ouch. Another round for LFP.
Round 4:
LFP is 92% efficient when accepting a charge.
LA is 80%. Even less at it reaches full charge.
Ooooouch. LA is clearly being thumped here.
Round 5:
LA loses charge holding ability when too cold. And at 10 degrees over 25 C, ages at double the rate. Indeed, you can easily kill LA by keeping it too hot for too long under load.
LFP works at good efficiency hot or cold, fully charged or partial.
It's a knock out. It's an absolute knock out. The old champ, LA, is lying on the mat. the corner is waving the white flag.
***
So nice to see real progress and not vapourware. Thank you Germany for developing this technology.
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BCcabin
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 11:40pm
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Wow gotta say that looks pretty sweet! Would the 260 Ah stand alone batteries work just the same as LA equivalent in a small system as well?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 11:57pm
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Lots of advantages though the price puts them in the same situation as LED lights were several years ago. I seldom buy into anything new at the beginning of a product cycle. I'll let others be the first retail guinea pigs. Perhaps when the present set needs replacing.
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creeky
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 09:10am
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Bccabin. It looks like the battery is 4 volts. So you'd need three for a nominal 12v system, plus the battery management system. Contact them and see what they say. Would be interesting.
Interestingly tho, at 50% d.o.d. they spec a 5000 cycle lifespan. Or 13 years.
It seems they're being a little more upfront than some of the Australian manufacturer s reports I've seen. Or they have a slightly different chemistry.
Lead acid at 50% d.o.d. lifespan drops to around 1000 cycles. So 3 years.
Mtndon. Ya. My battery pack is running great. But if I was replacing it. This is the way I'd go. Nice to see some real progress that you can buy. Off the shelf and ready to go.
And so I posted this as a heads up to those thinking of living off grid and looking at solar. Cost of ownership will be way lower. Maintenance etc is also lower. At a projected 4 times the lifespan that's a lot of room for amoratization... Even if the initial cost appears near to double.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 03:47pm
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Here's an article about how fuel cells may replace batteries- use solar or wind power to split water into H and O using the fuel cel in reverse, then later use the fuel cel as normal to burn the H and O to make elec
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 04:44pm
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I wasn't dissing the battery (and I did look at the site, it still burns), I think it's great that somebody is FINALLY improving battery technology beyond cell phones and laptop computers. Like Don said, I don't want to be the guinea pig though!
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creeky
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 06:21pm
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thx bldginsp. i know you'll appreciate, as someone who would like to go off grid, what I'm talking aboot.
tho one can trek thru the internet and see a host of technical solutions that could exist. may exist. will, indeed, in some way, some day, exist.
these new batteries are available to buy today.
and, blessed be their name, are a better solution then lead acid. way better. game changingly better. greater capacity. lower weight. 3-4 times the lifespan. and "maybe" easier to manage. better
that's why I posted under off grid living. and described this post as "available now". this post is for those buying and/or building a solar system this year or in the very near future. it's new. and. it is exciting.
(note i am not being paid by anyone to promote this or any other technology or manufacturer or distributor/retailer. and wouldn't it be nice if more folks would post their actual affiliations. and wouldn't it be even nicer if someone would send me a lfp battery pack to review.)
myself, i have a going thru year 4 15 kw lead acid battery pack. and i will have to replace it in the next 2-4 years (fingers crossed). so i keep an eye out for better solutions. I mean, I will have to spend non vapour ware money on it to continue actually non vapour ware living off grid.
and this is the first real better solution i've seen.
anybody else seen a reliable energy storage solution that I can buy today? cause lead acid is no slouch.
remember. this is aboot solutions for today. for living off grid. actual. real. 24/7/365.
btw. if you're waiting for the future. i hear dilithium crystals will be big. but dogged by. aye captain. "they canna take it" stress. 
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creeky
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 06:45pm
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dillio. if we're not the guinea pigs who will be? 
just, i'm not sure, do you live off grid? do you have a solar system that you and your family relies on? or expect to?
for those off grid. we're spending real hard earned dollars. if I can buy a solution off the shelf, lower maintenance, 3-4 times the lifespan, all the other benefits ...
kindly provide an example of this kind of lithium iron phosphate battery burning. just one... storage of energy always comes with the need to be careful. but to naysay without a basis in reality ... i'm not dissing anyone. but. this is an "available now" post to the off grid section of this small cabin site.
btw. who said that. "if not us, who?"
did I get that right? what came after that?
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Just
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 08:53pm - Edited by: Just
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creeky i like your style being a innovator turns my crank, buttttttttttt some times it can be the wrong choice . innovation can be an expensive sport . that being said i have just bought my first lithium battery [other than cell phones] in the form of a string trimmer ,,i'll let you know in a few years.. so far i really like it , fast charging and light in weight ..
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 10:09am - Edited by: Dillio187
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what I think is an issue is, most current solar charge controllers are built and designed to charge a lead acid battery. Once controllers are built to properly charge lithium type batteries, I think you'll see them become more popular. I have read that some people have had luck charging lithium type batteries with standard chargers, others say you need special chargers. Any input here? I'd actually like to pick up a few batteries for a radio project I'm working on, so this might be a good time to get acquainted with these batteries in a DIY mode.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 01:58pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Charger controllers like the Outback, Midnite Solar and other "upscale" PV charge controllers have user programmable set-points for bulk, absorb, float and equalization voltages. The equalization part can also be disabled for batteries that don't need or can be damaged by equalization voltages. That also goes for the charger section of equivalent "upscale" inverter/chargers that are available. If a person is going to spend the big dollars for these new batteries they should, IMO, also spend the big dollars for a highest quality charge controller and inverter/charger.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 03:38pm
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Creeky- crunch the money numbers on lithium vs lead-acid. Dollars per amp hour, then factor in how long they will last. If they cost %150 of lead acid per amp hour, but last twice as long, they save money in the long run. I guess you have to factor in the fact that you can run them down further as well, so you really only have to buy %75 of the amp hour capacity for the same performance. How did you crunch the numbers?
And yes, there are lots of promising technologies out there that MIGHT happen, but might not. Right now you can only buy what really is.
Mt Don- do you know how lithium batteries differ from LA in charging needs? Are LA chargers harmful for lithium?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 04:47pm
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I have mis-spoke slightly..... The bulk voltage can not be set, the CC does what it does based on the basic voltage of the battery, IE: 12 volt, 24 volt..... The bulk voltage builds until it hits the preset point for Absorb and then the CC switches to the preset absorb voltage for the time programmed.
From the LFP website that was listed in the OP....
Charge Voltage:
14.0 Vdc Bulk Charge
14.4 Vdc Absorption Charge
13.25 Vdc Float Charge
The Absorb and Float values are a little lower than what is frequently recommended for lead-acid batteries, but the above mentioned "good" CC's can all be programmed to the LFP values.
IF I was seriously considering those LFP batteries I would contact the manufacturer, advise them on what hardware I had and ask if they approved or not, just to be certain.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 04:58pm
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I did read something someplace about cell balancing in LFP batteries. Now I can not find it. It was not on the same website that creeky linked to. I was skimming and don't recall the fine details... but IIRC the LFP cells are not 100% identical, just like lead-acid cells and batteries have built in inequalities. So when run through several cycles some cells will be fully charged or discharged earlier than some other cells. The differences will increase if the cells are not balanced occasionally. I have no idea what that procedure is, and no idea if that "balancing act" is necessary with the generation of batteries linked yo in the OP.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 05:06pm
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BMS, Battery Management System for the linked to batteries.
.... so maybe it is not so simple as to just replace a lead-acid battery bank with the LFP? ??? Or maybe it is? No pricing info the the BMS....
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 05:08pm
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Here's the page I was looking for earlier...
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 05:14pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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OOOOPs..... my bad..... the OP brochure states that a BMS is built into the posted battery.
And it states... "Works seamlessly with most leading solar charge controllers and inverters. Max Charge voltage not to exceed 14.4 VDC. Cell balancing at .75 amps."
So if you set the Absorb voltage to 14.4 VDC on a 12 volt battery, you should be safe, according to all that.
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creeky
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 08:12pm
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nice to see you'ze all catching up.
these battery packs are well thought out. quite brilliant engineering in fact. so lovely to see. ah phd's in action. lol.
bldginsp. there are a number of factors in, er, crunching the numbers. basically what I see is about 150-170% initial cost of lead acid. less if you look at the high end/vrla lead acid batteries, but some of them have longer lifespans too. so do your math based on the battery that is available to you.
Now amortize over 3 to 4 times the lifespan. so in effect you will buy 3 or 4 lead acid packs for every 1 lfp. given my age. it is quite likely one lfp pack would last me, well let's not go there.
personally, while the lfp offers many advantages, including price, I would opt for this lfp pack based on three factors:
1: operating temperature range. I live in a cold climate and heating my lead acid batteries is a pain.
2: lower maintenance/storage / weight/cabling etc. call it "ease of use" no watering! go away for a couple of months and no worries about snow on the panels!
3: more efficient charging. again. It gets very cloudy for two months of every year here. a more efficient charge cycle would be a real benefit for me and probably allow me to use fewer panels. thus saving money on my initial capital investment and offsetting some of the added expense of lfp.
that 9 kw lfp battery pack is about equal to my 15kw lead acid. from what I've read from actual lfp owners it appears that they almost never fully charge their battery packs. it's lower stress on the battery to run an 80% charge to 50% discharge. Now my lead acid are best run at >100 to 80. With a once a month "equalize" charge that indeed is about fully charging the batteries.
so, lots of factors to plug into your equation.
(and kind of neat that the battery pack now lasts as long as the 80% output value for solar panels, so a 25 year amortization period is not out of line)
mtndon. thx for bringing the bms issue up. of course, as you note, you were wrong to suggest I had overlooked bms. I posted this pack with my delight because it's all there. bms. charging profiles. it really is. order the battery. take it home. attach it to your solar system. live long and prosper.
my world wide best selling most features best bang for the buck morningstar controllers, will work perfectly with this battery pack. 
i'm sure there are some issues that remain unseen. but this is way better than lead acid. so again.
thank the Germans. They are the ones pushing this tech with their distributed style of solar generation / storage. the aussies are taking a pretty good kick at the can too.
Luckily this benefits us actual real off gridders too. with actual real tech. glass of champagne anyone?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 08:25pm
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800 amp hours (9kwh at 12 volts) for $3300, 5 year warranty, 3000cycles.
Sounds like the charging issues are easily surmountable.
How many cycles are LA batteries good for? 6 years, one cycle a day, around 2000
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creeky
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# Posted: 16 Jul 2014 09:24am
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Of course it's always advisable to compare apples to apples.
Lead acid battery warranty. 0 cycles. Warranty limited to defects in manufacture for two years.
Hypothetical cycles l.a. 3000. L.f.p. 10,000. All things being equal a l.f.p. battery pack should last 3.3 times longer.
Price of a good l.a. battery pack of equivalent useable power. Roughly speaking: 12 trojan 105re @ 150 plus shipping (say 200) plus cables (100). $2100.
(Note: @ 20% d.o.d. or 2.7kwh this is not as powerful as the l.f.p. pack which should offer 3 to 4.5kwh)
So 30% savings for 1/3 the lifespan.
Charging is easier with l.f.p. with no equalize required. Nor Temperature compensation?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 16 Jul 2014 10:36am
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sounds good to me. I plan to put in a very small solar for lights and charging gadgets alone. I wonder if they have a small enough lithium battery for my needs. I'll research when time comes.
Thanks for the info creeky
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Bret
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# Posted: 16 Jul 2014 11:21am
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I am also planning a small system 500 watt. Any info on going lithium for such a system? This sure looks like the way for the future. Thanks for all you are doing to get the info out.
Bret
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razmichael
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# Posted: 16 Jul 2014 12:14pm
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I have a few more years out of my two Trojan 105's (hopefully) but I was really excited to see this technology starting to come main-stream. However, a bit disappointing to do the math on the smaller 2.6Kw pack that more closely matches my current system and needs. Likely because of the fixed cost for the battery management system in all the packs, the 2.6Kw pack is about 40% more expensive at $.55/whr than the 9Kwhr and 18Kwhr packs at about $.39/whr. This substantially decreases the value proposition for small systems when based strictly on the cost vs lifetime comparison. This is ignoring the other advantages. I would really expect these costs to continue to drop so hopefully, by the time I need to replace my 105's (or just need more), these will be really good option cost wise.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 16 Jul 2014 01:08pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Be interesting to see what would happen if you added lithium bats to your LA bank. Are they electrically compatible?
Maybe I could buy a totaled Nissan Leaf, pull the battery pack, and use it. Probably a few more w/hrs than I need for lights in a 300 square foot.
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Steve961
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# Posted: 16 Jul 2014 06:02pm
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Something else to consider, as we are on the SMALL CABIN forum, is that many of our cabins are unoccupied the vast majority of the time. As such, our batteries are mostly in float and not being cycled.
I figure I spend 30 days at my cabin per year. If I installed a Lithium battery bank with 3,000 cycles, and only cycled it 30 times per year, could the battery really stay in service for 100 years? Even if it could, which I highly doubt, I expect a much better/cheaper technology will be available within 10-15 years.
The next battery I plan on buying is a Concorde Sun Xtender 258 AH 12V AGM (~2.3Kw at 80% DOD). AGM batteries can easily handle an 80% DOD, albeit with a lowered number of cycles (500 vs 1000). Assuming the same 30 cycles per year, this battery should theoretically last 16 years. The Concorde also costs about $670, which saves me $760 over the 2.6 Kw Lithium battery. If I invest that $760 for 16 years I figure I, or possibly my kids, will have more than enough money to buy a much better energy storage system than either Lithium or AGM.
And lastly, since my battery is located inside my cabin, I appreciate the long safety record of AGM batteries.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 16 Jul 2014 08:08pm
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Can any lead acid battery last over ten years? I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that the basic chemistry has a given life even in ideal minimal use conditions. Hard numbers on the real life span of lithiums seems critical for this economy calculation we are attempting.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 17 Jul 2014 01:27am
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Quoting: bldginsp Can any lead acid battery last over ten years?
Yes, though most lead-acid batteries will not. It depends on many factors beginning with the quality of the battery. A Rolls / Surette can easily make the 10 year mark with proper care and use. Lesser batteries like common L-16's and Golf Cart batteries might not, but also may if well used and well cared for.
I have a friend who has 10 years on a string of L-16's and they still work well. He designs, sells and installs systems and believes he can use them for a couple more years. He thinks if I don't do something stupid I can get 5 more years out of my GC2's which were 5 years old this month.
Most lead-acid batteries die early from abuse though.
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