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stickbowcrafter
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# Posted: 18 May 2014 04:33pm - Edited by: stickbowcrafter
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I will be needing power to my property eventually. I can pay the electric company six thousand US dollars to run electric to my property, but my original hope was to keep this place off grid. These solar threads make my head spin and I never see any dollar amounts for what they're running.
I know some of you will not be able to resist telling me to pay the electric company and the monthly bill for eternity. Let's pretend that is not an option. Also, I understand there will be different prices and schools of thought depending on the region. For simplicity sake, please tell me what you are running and what you have invested so I can get an idea before spending a bunch of time researching everything out.
If I end up moving there eventually it would be nice to have the ability to have a few lights, a fridge, a TV and a washer & dryer. I have no problem adding propane to cover a stove and water heater if need be. I just need a real world ballpark number for a system to run the above to see if it's even worth taking the next step. The property is located in northeast Ohio and the solar panels will be installed on buildings in open farm land.
-Brian
My property tour
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SE Ohio
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# Posted: 18 May 2014 06:08pm
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Brian,
It will depend on your electrical consumption which only you can determine. If you want a fridge and a/c, you won't get far with my system.
I have a weekend place. Our electrical usage consists mainly of running one light fixture after dusk, a stereo several hours, a 12 v pump occasionally for a shower, and the kids get to watch a 2 hour DVD each weekend (on its own charge if I remembered to charge it).
To accomplish this, the cabin was wired for 120 ac ( before I owned it). It delivers 12 volts (no inverter) with no problems, but the mathematicians may point out that this is inefficient from a theoretical standpoint, but maybe not from an economist's point of view.
My 12 volt solar setup consists of a Harbor Freight setup purchased for about $145 possibly with additional 20 % off coupon. I replaced the controller with a Morningstar unit for about $80 (I think). Added two 6 volt golf cart batteries in series (12 v total, maybe $160 from Sam's Club). Electrical enclosure from Menards, extra wire and hardware, diy adjustable angle panel support, exterior grade on/off switch, etc. another $150. My labor cost me only my wife's scowls
I added a 12 volt fan to move the air a bit when it's hot, another $30. Also helps move hot air down in winter.
This system will not work for everyone, but is fine for my (quite limited) needs.
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groingo
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# Posted: 18 May 2014 06:25pm
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The key ingredients would be how much power you want to use and how much do you really need, that would be the first step, second step will be to be sitting down because solar is not cheap which may lead to a hybrid solar generator setup.
There are many ways to approach, personally I am from the school of removing all electricity from the equation whenever possible, there was life before electricity but on the other hand the alternative cannot be a burden so you have to reach a balance.
As far as appliances go, take a close look at how it is done in a camping trailer which is built to be efficient.
But first you need to take the first step.
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stickbowcrafter
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# Posted: 18 May 2014 06:42pm - Edited by: stickbowcrafter
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I have thought about retrofitting an RV system into the cabin which will work fine for now. It will be a weekend place with a few week long stays per year for now but someday I may retire there and live 7-8 months out of the year. I keep hearing its difficult to expand systems so I thought I would get what I need now. There are giant homes running everything off solar these days so it can be done, there's just a lot of different info out there.
-Brian
My property tour
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groingo
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# Posted: 18 May 2014 09:53pm - Edited by: groingo
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Indeed anything is possible just depends how deep your pockets are, if you expect a return on investment in you lifetime or if it is just something you want to do? Once those questions are answered the only thing left is to act on it.
Where you cabin is located do you have a stream, wind etc, all are also possibilites that can either replace or supliment solar....big picture.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 18 May 2014 10:42pm - Edited by: Gary O
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Man, sbc, I commend you for bringing this subject back to the fore, and in plain speak too.
I've bandied this around several folks for a few weeks now without (what I'd say is) straight forward answers.
I've come to the conclusion on a couple things;
1) I need to put together what's right for me, since a straight forward answer is pretty much nonexistent, so I'm going to experiment a bit with solar for a few bucks, but rely on my generator to charge the batteries I figure to need.
2) I'm not going to initially lay down serious cash for an all-out system because the technology seems so dynamic right now, and changing as I type....
Hope to read more from you on your solar adventure, and I'll be sure to write about mine.
cheers
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groingo
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# Posted: 18 May 2014 10:58pm - Edited by: groingo
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My problem has been very similar when dealing with the retailers, they get you all set up, sounds doable then when they draw up the paperwork the other shoe drops and the price doubles....just went through that twice now, then to top it off my favorite panel maker closed up shop in tbe US back in March but none of the retailers bothered to mention that tid bit and when Sharp closed their doors they also halted all support.
For me it is back to square one but that has turned out to be a good thing as my re-evaluation of my power requirements changed for the better and it actually looks like plan B could actually work, tomorrow I get the new batteries and see if the numbers actually work and if it does the cost could be a fraction of solar.
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keljohnso
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# Posted: 19 May 2014 08:47am
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We've had a small camper for years so I tried to compare it to our cabin. We have dual 12 volt batteries and can get about 3 days out of them. We run a tv off of a small inverter. There is some phantom draw that our cabin won't have. Things like CO2 detector, fridge display, etc.
We are in the process of hooking up electrical now. We will have a 12 volt pump, 4 dual lamp rv style fixtures, 3 single rv style fixtures, and 4 12 volt cigarette lighter plugs. We have 2 outlets and 1 ceiling fan that are 110V, we'll run them off an inverter. No fridge for now. Even with all the lighting, we won't have everything on at once.
We'll start with 1 Deka Marine Master battery and solar. I was going to go with the Harbor Freight 45W setup for $200 (off sale when I looked) but ended up going with a Renogy 200W setup with controller for $300 and free shipping. They put out around 11 amps so it should charge this battery in like 5-6 hours.
We will add another battery if needed.
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creeky
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# Posted: 19 May 2014 11:43am
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You can see more by looking at my solar setup in creeky's summer camp. but I initially spent around 5k. I keep fiddling and it's just plain fun to play so. I've added another 2 panels and a second controller (another 1000). I use about 3 kw/day during the summer and about 1.5 to 2 daily in the winter.
That 5k bought me a 1kw panels (250/48v) system with 1200 amp hr battery pack at 12v. It's a very robust system and as I got used to it and was able to track real life use I began to add stuff. I run almost all 115v. With only one rv 12v pump for the shower.
So. I run everything you see in a modern home. I have AC. A fridge. I used to boil water with an electric kettle but gave it away. No reason. I have satellite internet. A large screen tv. LED lights. Microwave. Etc.
The difference compared to on grid is when I use them. The fridge runs 24/7 of course. It's 10 cu ft. The internet uses 45 watt/hr. So it gets turned off at night. The tv I watch (up late last night watching a movies) when the the forecast is for sun.
Ditto with the 5000 btu AC. I run it when the batteries are full. The thing with AC is I only need it late afternoon when the sun is out and it's hot. So that works well with a solar system.
Same with the dishwasher and clothes washer. The dishwasher uses 500 to 700 watts per load. So the sun has to be shining. The clothes washer, well I dry my clothes on a line, so the sun's out. It only uses 100 watts per load... I can use it anytime really.
Because of the heavy cloud in my area. in Nov/Dec I run a generator for an hour up to twice a day for supplemental charging. Since Jan 1 I have run the genny three or four times and not at all in the last few months. I am still on my late december gas fill. I don't anticipate using it to charge the batteries again until October. Less than $20 bucks in gas for 9 months of the year and about 20 bucks a week for maybe six weeks. What's that. Call it $150 a year for gas.
Btw. My electric fridge is now free. I've had it for a year. And compared to the previous propane RV fridge it doesn't cost anything to run. I've now paid for it with the savings on propane. I went 10 cu ft. because it had the lowest electric consumption. The new fridges coming out this year should beat it handily. I think there's a fridge out now that's 17 cu ft that actually claims to use less power than mine. Nice.
I use a propane stove. Propane water heater. And, if I had a clothes dryer, it would be propane.
So Stickbow. For your six grand you should be in good shape for offgrid solar.
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kdrtk
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# Posted: 21 May 2014 01:48pm - Edited by: kdrtk
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My one panel system, run lights and older travel travel trailer. Before the pictures, used to bring up a charged battery each time, now I just flick the on/off switches, nice.
Panel is a Kyocera 135, controller is a Xantrex C-12.
in 2010 Panel $400, controller $80, battery $100, inverter $75, 12 volt dist box $20. Shack is wired for 12 volts. Inverter runs vacum and power tools, have since added a small PWM inverter to charge phones, laptops, etc.
No problems since 2010.
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Atlincabin
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# Posted: 22 May 2014 10:40am
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To answer your original question, we have about $8k invested in our system here in Atlin, BC. Summer cabin only, so no winter use but I do have an extra small panel that is vertical (no snow cover on it) that keeps the batteries topped up in the winter. Four 230-watt panels on the roof, an inverter/charger (Magnum brand, 4kw capacity which is overkill), and 4 Rolls-Surrette 460 Ah AGM batteries, plus a few extra bits and pieces. This runs our 10 cu-ft fridge (I agree with previous posters, the 10 is the best value for money in terms of energy consumption right now), lights (generally not needed here in summer), internet connection (~25W/hr), occasional microwave and water pump and a few other things (like charging computers, battery-powered hand tools etc.). Just finished installing the last pair of panels (we were running two panels for a while this year) and it seems to work fine and provide all the power we need.
I think we could have done it for less with a bit more scrounging and cobbling together (we worked with Wholesale Solar in northern CA on the design - good folks to work with) but are quite happy with the system so far. We do have a backup gasoline generator that can be used for extensive cloudy periods (and I use it to run heave-draw power tools).
Greg
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rmak
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# Posted: 23 May 2014 06:03pm - Edited by: rmak
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I feel your pain stickbowcrafter. I got an $8000 quote to run power to my cabin too so solar/generator power was the only feasible way to go. I asked a bunch of questions here and made a bunch of inquiries to solar parts providers on the internet.
I think the difficulty in getting information from this forum is that everyone is at a different point in learning about and using alternative electricity. Regardless of how helpful people here try to be, there are way too many variables at play. I did learn a lot from people here but it was very easy for me to get lost.
The trouble with solar providers on the internet is that they want to sell you their stuff, so all of their responses to questions are predicated on you buying their stuff. They would contradict each other and even different salespeople for the same company would give different answers to the same question.
I just want to suggest that you find someone locally. I finally connected with an Amish guy here in Ohio who sells solar and alternative energy products to farms in the central part of the state. He answered all my questions and set me up with what I needed. He was a straight talker. He would say things like, "it would be nice to have this component, but you don't need it. You can always buy it later if you want." He also gave advice like, "Here's where you need a fuse. If this or that happens you could burn your cabin down." He's always a phone call away.
I'm really happy about how my off grid system is working out. I am doing 2 6v batteries in series and a generator that charges the batteries or runs everything and a switch system to go between the two. When I save more money I can get the solar panel and other components to complete the system. Plenty of power for my simple needs. The whole set up will run me around $1200. Sounds like you will need a little more.
It's a blast to turn on the lights for the first time.
If you live in or around Ohio, I can give you the name of the company that helped me out.
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stickbowcrafter
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# Posted: 28 May 2014 09:31pm
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Thanks everyone, this is exactly the type of information I was looking for. I don't have a need for all of that power right now, but eventually would like to get there.
rmak, my farm is in north east Ohio, would be interesting to speak with your contact and get some more information.
-Brian
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neckless
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# Posted: 28 May 2014 11:59pm
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i would like two add my 2 cents,,,less we for get...i all ways wanted a solar system and have one now but for about five years i would run my tv and lights and such off of a 650 watt honda genset on weekends and a lot of winter stuff and thats with a 4 year old wachin moves,,,,,,, IT WOULD COST ABOUT A GAL OF GAS A WEEKEND,,,i just started then genny when u need power,,, it took a while to get my brain to get my hand and spend all that money on a solar sys... but i havent run my genny for a long time...
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Jim in NB
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# Posted: 29 May 2014 06:34am
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A couple of more cents ... A guy down the road from my place has a system set up for weekends - runs lights, tv (why not stay home?) and a pump for his plumbing. Has two smaller batteries, two 150 watt panels, invertor and wired for AC. Cost him $1500 Canadian, so likely about $800 US (solar, like everything but health care is so much more expensive here! LOL!) Solar is one my future projects - maybe this fall. I spend around 100 days a year at my place - mostly weekends but also four or five 10 day stretches. I am thinking I may have to go with three 150 watt panels and will beef up on the batteries - thinking this will add probably another $1500. I will be running lights (all LEDs) and a stereo. Finding a reliable dealer/seller is key unless you can put the system together yourself - which is the way I plan on going. Like spending $8 on quality food and cooking it yourself or paying $20 for food of less quality and having someone cook it for you!
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rmak
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# Posted: 29 May 2014 06:28pm
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Hi Brian,
Got a chance to look at your build thread. Pretty cool! I'm in Portage County south of your property.
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stickbowcrafter
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# Posted: 30 May 2014 01:47pm
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Thanks rmak. Heck, Portage County isn't far at all from my farm or my home for that matter. My farm is in southern Ashtabula County and I live in western PA not far from the Pittsburgh Airport. Pretty cool there are so many people here within 100 miles of me.
Thanks for the input everyone!
-Brian
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countrygirl
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# Posted: 30 May 2014 03:15pm
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We have a bigger cabin and have been up grading our solar system more and more each year. We have full size fridge and more.
When we look at going with hydro we would have been spending over $40,000 to get it to the cabin. that's when we decided to run a solar system. We are there every weekend summer, and winter (and may move out there someday) My husband has done all the work on it which has saved us lots of money. Don't think its worth putting in a bigger solar system if your not going to use often.
Cost that the question? (all numbers are in Canadian)
Deep Cycle Batteries 8X$425= $3400
Solar Panels250PE Watt SP 6X$250=$1500
Inverters Magnum AE 4000 watt 24 VDC 120/240 both Inverter with 105 amp charger $2000
Charge Controllers $400
Windmill 600W Wind Turbine Coleman $750
LED Bulbs, Energy Meters, Wire etc... $1700
Just under $10,000
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ILFE
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# Posted: 31 May 2014 11:33pm
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Quoting: stickbowcrafter For simplicity sake, please tell me what you are running and what you have invested so I can get an idea before spending a bunch of time researching everything out
Tons of great information and advice for you, so far, Brian.
Our little rural farm is located here in Cambodia. No utilities are available within 5 kilometers of the property. So, we use rainwater for all water needs, and solar for all power needs.
Our initial outlay for the solar is as follows:
3 - 100 watts Just Solar panels - $135 USD each (Panels are still a bit more in 3rd World countries, than back home in the US.)
1 - 30 amp MorningStar ProStar 30m PWM controller - $250 (Again, more costly.)
4 - 120 AH Deep Cycle batteries - $200 USD (Got all for a deal, only a few months old, as the guy was leaving Cambodia to return home to England.) I currently only run 2 of the batteries on the system.
So, $855 USD, plus some wiring, fuses, bus bars, etc.
Since then, I have purchased quite a bit more hardware for additional solar projects and upgrades, including a Midnite (Beta) Kid 30a controller, for $200 USD. I also purchased a WhizBang Jr. battery monitor that works with the Kid controller.
A separate array / system that runs all exterior lighting is run solely from one 100 watts Just Solar panel, a Morningstar SunLight 10L-12v PWM controller (got for $60 USD off eBay, along with some other stuff), and a single 50AH Deep Cycle battery. The lighting is by 10 Watts LED flood lamps, purchased at 10.00 Each, off eBay. Chinese made, but they seem to work well. The SunLight controller automatically switches the lights on every night, and off at dawn every morning. Completely maintenance free, and excellent security around the farm.
I estimate I have about $1,500 USD, all in. We run a television and DVD player, all internal and external lighting, a ShurFlo water pump to pressurize our water system, cooling fans and other small appliances, as needed.
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stickbowcrafter
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# Posted: 26 Jun 2014 06:43pm
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Thanks countrygirl & ILFE. countrygirl, can you go into a little more detail on how you started and how you expanded? That's what I am really concerned with. I have small needs now, few lights and a way to run a pump for water pressure, but I would like to expand as needed.
-Brian
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beachman
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# Posted: 26 Jun 2014 07:52pm
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Everyone discusses solar panels, inverters batteries, controllers, etc, but no talk about wire size for what, max lengths, grounding, etc. I would love to hear about these if anyone has ideas. I'm about $2k in so far but have to get some serious cables from the batteries - fuses??? Also need a battery monitor and would like something more than the basic so I can do some calculating of what I use and gain.Any thoughts on this?
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ILFE
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# Posted: 26 Jun 2014 11:34pm - Edited by: ILFE
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beachman,
Quoting: beachman Everyone discusses solar panels, inverters batteries, controllers, etc, but no talk about wire size for what, max lengths, grounding, etc. I would love to hear about these if anyone has ideas. I'm about $2k in so far but have to get some serious cables from the batteries - fuses???
I make it a point to have all wires of equal lengths. For example, my batteries are exactly 1.5 meters from the controller, making them 3 meters round trip. They are number 6 wire, protected with 50 amp fuses.
Fuses that some people tend to use, and are more expensive, are by Blue Sea Systems. They attach direct to the battery posts, making them easier to access, seated on top of each battery. Here is a LINK to their terminal fuse blocks. (Image is attached below.)
I use solid wire for grounding applications, and stranded for everything else (panels to controller, controller to loads, and controller to battery bank.)
Although there are absolutely no codes to concern us here in Cambodia, there probably will be where you are located. So, that is one thing you should probably take into consideration.
Quoting: beachman Also need a battery monitor and would like something more than the basic so I can do some calculating of what I use and gain.Any thoughts on this?
Although I do not personally own one, I have heard nothing but positive reviews regarding the Victron Energy Battery Monitors. The 600 Series seems to be the popular one to use. (They have a 600 for one battery bank, or the 602 for monitoring of dual battery banks.)
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beachman
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# Posted: 27 Jun 2014 04:09pm
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Thanks IFLE. I think I am starting to get the picture. I might try those fuses.
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ILFE
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# Posted: 27 Jun 2014 06:22pm
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Do keep in mind, the type of fuses we are talking about here are NOT cheap. But, they will keep your protection at the battery. Line protection at least near the battery bank is certainly a plus.
To give you an idea of prices, check them out by using keywords "Terminal Fuse Block", on Amazon.com.
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rugercpl
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2014 04:16pm
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$1800 for mine. It runs a mini-fridge, 50" flat screen, BluRay player, Roku, Verizon hot spot, a Logitech rechargeable portable speaker, hot and cold water pumps, LED indoor and outdoor lighting, an oscillating fan, and anything else small I want to plug into the wall outlets.
It's a plug and play pure sine wave system from Be Prepared Solar with 3 batteries (300ah total) and (2) 150Watt panels with 3000 watt inverter. I just back feed it into a dedicated socket which in turn sends power to my entire panel box in the cabin. I have a eu2000 converted to propane as my former source of power but now have silent clean energy thx to the sun with propane genny back up.
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MI drew
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2014 08:57am - Edited by: MI drew
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We run about 10 different lights mostly cfl and some led. 20"tv, dvd, 4 cu ft fridge, cell phone chargers, and radio.
Renogy 2x100w panels
Tracer mppt 40amp charger controller w/meter
Wiring and fuses
$600
Duracell 2x 6v 210 amp hour batteries
$80 each
PowerBright 1100w inverter
$90
I will be adding 2 more panels at $150 each, 2 more batteries, and a 1000w pure sine inverter soon. I will also be making a permanent and adjustable panel mount once I get the other panels. Only got $10 in my temp panel holder. I was getting 13 amps in direct sun.
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Steve961
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2014 01:24pm - Edited by: Steve961
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I have over 2K invested in my system so far. It's probably a bit overkill for what I currently use it for, but I'm planning for some future expansion. I have two separate arrays and controllers; a 128 watt roof array with a PWM controller and a 190 watt ground array with a MPPT controller. The 190 watt panel gets stored in the cabin to prevent theft when I'm away. I hope to add another 190 watt panel to the ground array in the next few years. The battery is a 108 AH 12V Concorde AGM that works fine for now, but it's replacement will be a 258 AH one.
My system also has an automatic transfer switch and 30 AMP battery charger for my Honda eu2000i generator. This was a useful feature when I was building my cabin and still hadn't mounted the panels, but I haven't found the need to hook up my generator for the past two years. The inverter is a Morningstar SureSine 300/600 watt that I hope to never outgrow since it is so efficient in standby mode - nothing else on the market even comes close.
I'm currently running several light fixtures with CREE LED bulbs, T-amp stereo, 22" LCD TV, HP Mini laptop computer, 12V Shurflo pump, and a 12V Coleman Stirling cooler/freezer which is amazingly efficient. I also charge several cordless tools for odd jobs around the cabin. I'm looking forward to the new inverter compressor refrigerators, that should work with the Morningstar inverter, to be more available and reasonably priced before I upgrade to a real refrigerator.
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creeky
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 05:07pm
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Those are some nice systems Steve, MI.
Just a note for fuse blocking. I was swapping out inverters and a ground wire (I think) somehow bumped the live line.
I was ever so happy so spend 30 bucks ordering a new 300 amp fuse... no other damage done.
And MI drew. I have my panels on a 2x10x12' with dock hinges which allows me to easily change the angle of my panels for spring/fall summer winter. Makes quite a difference and dock hinges are 20 bucks at the big box. I have more/bigger panels. I used the $70 dollar ones. Up for 4 years and still perfect.
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ILFE
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 06:05pm
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creeky, any photos to share with us? Just thought I would ask.
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creeky
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 08:06pm
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http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/6_4282_0.html
is my camp build.
my build post does show my solar shed and the hinges. and how I installed the panels. i have to say putting in a solar system was the best thing I've done out here. it just makes living off grid so much easier.
fyi: i was forced to create solutions. remember I started 5 years ago. and there were no kits available. no resources other than the web, which I found (and continue to find) is full of bs and naysayers. that's why I sometimes get a little brusque. when you've been able to do something yourself, as an amateur, with, okay, some missteps and fumbling. and you run across people spreading a tale of strife and terror ... the first few times you tell jokes. but after a while.
so I'll say it again. solar is easy. anybody can do it. it's cheaper than you think. it's more capable than you think. and you can keep building and expanding if that's what you need to do.
but more than anything. it's fun.
here are two photos I just took. Last fall I put up an extra 500 watts for the winter. those are the two panels in the field still set at the winter angle. don't really need them in the summer. they are still producing. about 20% less than if I set them to the summer angle which you see the set of 4 at. I have a really cool design for a tracker. Should cost about $300. But really. It's about time. never enough. will get done for next winter tho.
note also, my wiring leaves much to be desired. hence my appreciation of steve and MI 's installs. 
and I'm currently (does it ever get old) using around 4 kw a day (about 1kw from the batteries overnight and 3 kw during the day, straight solar). dang that vpn : all the great movies ... world cup football ... tour de france ...
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