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Maxwake
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2014 12:20pm
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I'm interested in getting feedback/ideas on a water system I'm looking to construct. New to this site and learning a ton as I'm learning as I build. Constructing parts at home and will deliver in stages to cabin.
Have a small OTG log cabin with pitcher pump water well and generator power. I'm looking to build a 8x10 building that serve as toilet and shower and changing room for the girls (cabin doesn't have rooms). Hope is that it's nicer than existing outhouse and ultimately a nice shower is loved by all.
What I'm interested here is shower ideas. Floor is 2x6 joists which will sit on girders of some sort (still working out foundation). Walls 2x4, 16 on center and roof is 2x6 rafters. Toilet will be lovable loo https://humanurehandbook.com/store/LOVEABLE-LOO-Eco-Toilet.html as that seems to have the most consistent reviews, unlike the more expensive compost toilets which I originally thought I'd purchase. Our use is mostly weekends but it's cold climate and we do use year around so the system needs to be easily winterable and drained. Had some -20 below raw temps this winter!
My thought is that I will put in a cheap shower enclosure (32x40 or so) and then initially use a zodi shower like this:
http://www.amazon.com/ZODI-Outback-Gear-Travel-Shower/dp/B000X4IAMS/ref=sr_sp-btf_tit le_1_21?s=outdoor-recreation&ie=UTF8&qid=1397749238&sr=1-21&keywords=Outdoor+shower
Anyone use? Reviews seem reasonable enough. Not the best pressure is most consistent comment but for starters seems it will work and maybe we continue to use and call it a day.
Longer term though I'd like to try to make a higher pressure, more standard type of system to make a more refreshing shower. Something like this is what I'm thinking but minus the rain catch (not there enough) and solar at first (maybe add solar down the road). Seems really cool setup.
http://youtu.be/S5iteadS3uw
So my question is if anyone has done something like this using a 12v pump and on demand heater which feeds to a more standard shower? Would have to involve a pump with power and some sort of tank which I would manually fill when wanted from our pump.
Welcome all thoughts and feedback.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2014 05:18pm
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I used the Zodi for a number of years and it is excellent if you understand what it is designed for - portability and self contained. It is not 'on-demand' as you need to light it when you want to heat water. We found it worked best (especially with cold water) to recycle it into the bucket until you got the temperature you wanted and then just turn the gas off and use the pump. HOWEVER - I would really suggest you consider a more robust configuration given this is a fixed shower building. Many of us use an ecotemp (L5 or L7 tend to be very popular) which are true on-demand systems. The L5 or 7 are not designed strictly speaking to be run indoors as they are not vented. If you shop around you will get good deals on kits that include the heater and a suitable 12V pump - likely at not much more cost than the Zodi. Here is the site but shop around.
Ecotemp
A search on this site will reveal a bunch of threads on options to hook up. Below is a simplified diagram of the basic configuration I am using. I have it centralized with four way taps for both hot and cold to run pairs to an outdoor sink, an outdoor shower and an indoor sink. I use marine taps with microswitches that operate a relay to run the pump when opened. Open a hot water tap and the water goes through the ecotemp. Open a cold water and it comes through direct. Open both (and assuming you have a large enough pump) it goes through both. Options here include a small pressure tank. In fact, the system can act like a pressure tank and the microswitch is not needed as the pump has a built in pressure switch - I just opted to do it my way.
I manually lug up the water from the lake and store it in a container (adding a bit of bleach). Eventually I will pump from the lake. Added costs include all the plumbing but for a single shower this will not be much. You could easily start with only the ecotemp and use the build in temperature knob to control temp but I wanted something more flexible.
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beachman
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2014 07:34pm
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I have also used the Zodi but with double burner set up. I have used this unit both outdoors and in our new bath with the window open for air. It works pretty good and the water is decently warm - hot if you''re not carefull. I agree with Razmichael about the robust system. I have set up a system just like he describes only with a Bosch water heater hooked into a type B vent system (inside). The water pump works great but I have yet to be able to try the heater yet- this Summer I expect. Will let you know.
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Haltzy
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2014 09:17pm
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Our current system consists of a 1000L tote on top of a seacan, feeding an on-demand 12v pump, from the pump we run through 300' of 1" black poly tubing on top of the sea-can. This line feeds the outside shower and wash sink. There is also a cold line that feed a water hose and outhouse.
A couple things we learnt...
Filter your water, we filtered it coming out of the lake but we still had pump issues. We will be installing an in-line 3/4" filter this year.
Solar water heating is great, but it can go very quickly from very hot to cold. 2:30pm best time to shower.  . We will be adding an insulated reservoir to increase not water capacity and holding time.
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Maxwake
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2014 09:17pm
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Hmm. That's awesome. I have a million questions as I'm too unknowledgable to follow it all. I have looked at the Ecotemp and read good reviews. Unclear how to get pressure to though. Obviously to need a pump but hooking it all together is what I need to learn.
Copper tubing? Do you blow it out in winter? Can you explain in a little more layman terms? The diagram is great but I wouldn't know where to start to construct that.
I'd love to have a sink too if there's a way to work that out.
Really cool setup. This forum is amazing resource!
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Haltzy
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# Posted: 17 Apr 2014 09:24pm
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12v pumps are cheap and effective (rv pump). A single 12v battery and small solar setup will keep you going.
We drain and remove our pump in the winter, and blow out the lines. All our water lines are poly lines and PEX inside the outhouse for the toilet and sink hookups. Standard water lines at any store.
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Full Choke
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2014 09:27am
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I put a 36" shower stall in ours, wish I would of went with a 48. We maybe be moving our bath room out of our cabin to free up living space.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2014 09:46am
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I've redone the diagram to take out a few things that related more to my specific needs. I apologize if I'm telling you how to suck eggs here! It is very generic but may be easier to follow. Obviously your needs will differ so this is just one way of doing things. As Haltzy stated (and is in both my diagrams) you need a strainer or filter before the pump if there is any chance of debris getting in. My diagram just assumes you have the water in some tank but not how you collect it. I'm also assuming you have the 12Vdc power for the pump (here going through an off switch and a fuse).
The eccotemp (or other brand) needs a certain amount of water flow to activate. Hence the need for a decent pump. One options is to search for packages such as Ecotemp Package - note that this does not have a strainer/filter. Shop around for the best price as it will vary. You can always purchase the parts separately as there is nothing too unique about anything. Marine shops and RV shops sell lots of pumps and filters. In my set-up I used a pump with a built in pressure switch - it pumps until it reaches a set pressure then shuts down. This pressure may occur just in the plumbing lines or in an optional pressure storage tank (most likely the same thing you have in your house).
Shurflo and flojet (two most known 12v pump manufacturers) both make small pressure accumulator tanks such as Accumulator Tank but I cannot speak to how they work. The advantages apparently of this and using a pressure tank is less pump cycling and a steadier flow of water - for a cabin system I did not worry about this but that is a choice you can make (always add later).
Back to the diagram - the water from the storage tank goes through the strainer and is pumped into the system until it reaches the set pressure and the pump stops. The plumbings first split is to separate the cold into a cold and a line running through the heater. If you want more fixtures (shower and sink) then you will split the cold again and the hot line after the heater. If you open a cold tap the water will start to flow out dropping the pressure and the pump will then come on. If you open a hot tap the water will start to flow through the heater, the pump will come on and the heater will kick in giving you hot water. Depending on pump size, you will likely find a limit on how many fixtures are open (and how open) before the flow in the heater drops too much and it shuts off. This is not designed to have a bunch of concurrent users.
I used PEX throughout. Advantage - flexible (a least more than copper) and no soldering needed. It does not stand up to UV so it cannot be exposed outside (I used the foam pipe insulation in a couple of places as well as run "bundles" through PCV pipes).
Pex can connected either with a crimping tool such as Crimping Tool or there are a number of manufactures of slide in connection systems such as sharkbit Sharkbite. You cannot use the cheap little screw clamps that you can use with vinyl and other more flexible hoses.
There are hundreds of PEX compatible connectors available at your hardware store as this is now used in much of the construction. Once you have a plan for how you want your system to look, you should be able to head to your home depot or other favourite store and they will be able to walk through everything you need.
Pex will handle freezing much better than copper or other materials but it is not invincible - nor are the fittings. As well, the heater cannot freeze or it will become toast! The ecotemp does have a drain plug but I suspect most people bring it in for the winter. As Haltzy mentioned - and is not really shown in the diagram, you need to design the system that you can easily drain it but disconnecting a hose or two at a low level or have some system that you can use compressed air to blow out the water. I know others have described how they do this on other similar threads.
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Maxwake
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2014 09:56am
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Razmichael,
Thanks so much! Appreciate the time and thoughts. No apologies needed at all. I'm sure I will have a few questions as I digest this but this helps immensely to get me started.
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Maxwake
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2014 02:37pm
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Curious, anyone ever keep the plumping tubes outside the walls but inside the cabin so they are visible and easier to drain?
Id have to drain mine regularly for winter use and so designing that to be simple would be important. Just wonder if that is a dumb idea?
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rayyy
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# Posted: 18 Apr 2014 03:36pm
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I have a Ecotemp L5 hot water heater out in my camper for hot water for my shower.They are about $120.It is hooked up to a 20 pound LP gas tank(I use the tank off my BBQ grill).The water is in a 55 gallon barrel or what ever size container you come up with(5 gallon pail 30 gallon garbage can,15 gallon tank 300 gallon tote). a Shurflo RV 12 volt pump($60. to $80.) hooked to a 12 volt deep cycle battery or a car battery(what ever you got).It works great in the summer months but I pull the heater out and take it inside before it freezes up in the winter.Pretty much the same set up in my cabin except for a bigger tank of water and a bigger heater.
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ILFE
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2014 01:58pm
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I have a solar array to power all our electrical needs, and rainwater harvesting to provide all our water needs.
During the day, the sun heats up the storage tanks enough so that they stay warm most of the night.
A 12vdc Shurflo Revolution Water Pump provides the water pressure for the house.
Pretty simple setup and works great.
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Maxwake
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2016 02:52pm
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This is an old thread, but I am looking for help. Been out of the county and just getting back to this project, which Im very excited about. I have my building and system more or less done but have two problems. 1 - the pressure is very spotty, water sort of spits out of faucet sporadically and 2 - my heater doesn't really turn on. It might a quick second but then it shuts off. There are no error codes and the model is a Ecotemp FVI12.
My first question is do I need a relief valve somewhere? I see lots of mention about those but in Razmichael's diagram above, one is not drawn. Can someone explain what it's for and how it works and if required.
Second on the Ecotemp I'm wondering if altering the water valve is required? The Ecotemp troubleshooting guide talks about this and I am wondering if anyone else had to do so? Seems there is a lot of discussion on this heater with no mention of that being required. I'm basically trying to systematically figure out the issues.
Here are some pics of setup. Any help much appreciated!
IMG_8675.JPG
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2016 06:14pm
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My setup is close to yours and I don't have a special faucet or relief valve. Is the output of the pump match to the Ecotemp requirements?
I see you have cold water outlets. How is the pressure there? If that's bad you might have a restriction. Any chance a connection has restriction from washer or something?
Tank air bound? Try drain plug. Tank on winter drain setting?
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Maxwake
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2016 07:46pm
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It's a shurflo pump that does 3gpm pumping from a small tank.
Don't think there's a restriction issue.
What do tank air bound mean and other questions mean-sorry not sure on terms?
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 4 Oct 2016 08:59pm
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Air bound mostly happens with centrifugal pumps. It's when a column of air gets trapped and doesn't allow for flow.
My demand unit has a valve setting for winter draining and a brass plug to drain from. Checked your manual and yours only has brass drain plug. Loose drain plug could suck air but would likely leak too. Any faucets in system that leak can also suck air.
How many feet of head does the pump have to pull from? (The difference of height between tank and pump.) This can be hard for a pump to overcome if over ten feet.
Are you sure your suction hose from tank is pulling from bottom? Flexible ones have a bad habit of floating to top.
Does supply tank have vent?
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Maxwake
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# Posted: 5 Oct 2016 12:11am - Edited by: Maxwake
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Im pulling from a 20 gallon RV tank which just sits on the floor. Its about 1.5 feet below the pump at the most. Currently Im just running a hose into the tank via the large hole at the bottom. I hope to use an enclosed exit with the tank standing upright but it slightly leaks so for now the hose just is in the bottom of the tank. I dont see how that is the issue unless Im missing something. There is clearly plenty of air in the tank.
Thanks for your help, really appreciate!
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jace
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2016 09:40am
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max,
what model pump are you using ? I have an eccotemp L10 and looking to switch to an AC pump over my current 12V pump. One problem I'm finding is the Eccotemp heaters require 50 PSI to fire the burner off and most AC pumps that I've found are only 30 PSI. could this be your problem ?
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2016 10:32am
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I don't have the same on demand heater as yours. Mine is battery operated but the pilot light will go out if there are fluctuations in the water pressure.
I just turn the water off for a second at the valve and it relights.
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Maxwake
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2016 04:56pm
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I have shurflo that puts out 3gpm and the heater requires 2gpm so I think it would be good. I have been pulling water from tank on ground as opposed to standing tank up which might solve issue. It worked a bit when doing that but then also leaked so I've been testing it this way.
Problem is temps now dropping and we don't heat the building other then when there so I'm not sure if I want to troubleshoot more before spring.
Always something!
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