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optimistic
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2014 03:31pm
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I finally was able to connect the pvc plumbing for my system and I will connect my toilet next time I go and test it..
My system works as follows: I have a Domestic 510 low flush (1 pint) toilet. A 3" pvc pipe drains it directly into a portable (on wheels) tote tank with a 38 gallon capacity. The idea is that it will be used by the wife only (unless it is really really cold! ;)) while I will use the outhouse. So I believe it will see little usage and from my calculations it should get pretty full in 3-4 months - when I take it and dump it in a near by RV location.
I have a couple of questions:
1. the toilet is meant for RVs. This is the manual for it (with installtion guide) - https://www.dometic.com/47d833aa-c984-4f95-a34b-1edb5103e357.fodoc
But I am installing it on a regular house PVC floor flange (not regular really - a 3" one). The toilet came, as evident in the photo below, with this rubber gasket thing that has 4 little holes in it. The manual doesn't mention it at all... Should I connect this to the bottom of the toilet with screws? (it does have holes and I believe screws came with it) or should I just let it get pulled with the bolts on the side?
2. In my local plumbing store, 'real plumbers who know their stuff', I was told that I should also use a thinner kind of wax ring. Thoughts on that?
3. The tote tank sits outdoors... it will freeze (upstate NY). I was thinking on adding some antifreeze to it but never used anti freeze before: if I add, for example, half a gallon to it while it will have about 10 gallons of water and human waste in it then will it prevent the ENTIRE content from freezing? In other words, will anti freeze treat water on a 'per volume' fashion?
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Just
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2014 05:40pm
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not sure but could you use salt instead
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spoofer
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2014 05:51pm
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don't use anti freeze It's really bad for the environment
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beachman
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2014 06:49pm
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Optimistic - I installed one of these a year or so ago. As I remember, you attach the plastic flange to the floor. Hopefully, it is wood or similar as concrete or tile is hard to drill through. Then there are four slots for bolts to poke up from the plastic flange. Place the rubber seal over the bolts before placing the toilet on top. BEFORE attaching the flange to the floor, make sure the toilet will face the proper directon. (I learned this the hard way with ceramic tile). Then bolt the toilet to the flange and the seal will compress to make tight fit. Do not overtighten the bolts. Good luck!
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optimistic
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2014 07:45pm
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Thanks beachman! That answered my questions about that!
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optimistic
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2014 09:26pm
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Wow.. reading about anti freeze... I never knew there is such a thing as swimming pool anti freeze! So you can add it to water you then go into to? How crazy...
I guess my dream of having a winter, wood fired, hot tub, is still possible???
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 08:13am
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There are two main antifreeze solutions used in cars. Ethylene glycol was the main solution until the 80s. This is the hazardous stuff. If you took one sip you are dead. Generally they colored this solution green.
The other solution is propolyene glycol. This solution is actually often used as a food additive. This is also now used in cars but I'm sure there are some additives I would not eat. Propolyene glycol is what is used in swimming pools and RVs for winterizing. It is about $5 a gallon and needs to be mixed 50/50 with water to prevent that water from freezing. I do not see this as a solution to your waste container freeze prevention
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razmichael
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 08:34am
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Quoting: optimistic So you can add it to water you then go into to? How crazy
To add to hueyjazz's explanation - unless you have found something completely new the swimming pool antifreeze products are for the pool plumbing pipes not the pool itself. Sorry about the hot tub dream.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 09:16am
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One more thought on RV anti-freeze- while it won't freeze solid, it will get slushy in cold temps. I don't think a typical pump would move it, or it would drain well. It's really designed for winterization, where you pour/pump it into the pipes and tanks, then let it sit all winter.
RV's that are used in the winter use heating pads under stored water tanks to keep them above freezing. That may be a problem if you are off-grid, but may be workable if you have AC or a generator. You can use the RV antifreeze in your black water tote tank, it won't hurt, but in really cold weather you may have to warm it up a bit before you could empty it.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 11:28am
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I am hoping to not need to dump it until March. Which should be very very plausible if my estimates are right. If my wife uses it once or twice over the weekend then with 1 pint per flush plus the human waste - a maximum of .5 gallon a weekend, three weekends a month, with 38 gallon capacity, that is well over a year. So I don't want to go over 30 gallon full so I am hoping to always avoid dumping in the winter...
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 11:33am
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But his black water tank is 38 gallons. The RV glycol is already premixed with water so he would need to add at least 15 gallons of the RV stuff to keep it flowing. 15 x 5 is $75 so that will lose its luster quick
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 12:25pm - Edited by: optimistic
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jazz - not sure where you got your figures from but from reading on RV forums, on people who camp with their RV during winter, they only add about 1 gallon per 20 gallon waste to keep the tank from not working. Also, keep in mind that I am not starting with 20 gallon of waste. It could take me 5 months to reach that much.... For now, I will add a bit every-time we go to have a nice balance of antifreeze and waste...
I don't even have to do that really... If 5 gallon of pure waste (pure and waster not going well here ;) ) gets frozen solid in my tank it won't do it any harm really... it was plenty of room to expend to.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 01:04pm
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opti... I have a different angle on this. The place to introduce the RV anti-freeze may not be the black water tank directly, but into the clean water source for the toilet itself. Given your thoughts on not planning to dump until March and not worried the tank will split if it freezes solid, putting antifreeze in the black water tank directly doesn't make much sense.
What I would do is put the RV anti-freeze into the toilets clean water source. This is important becasue if the toilet is going to be used over the winter, you don't want the water to freeze in the toilets hoses and pipes. That will do some damage. By putting it in the fresh water tank as the toilet is used it will keep anti-freeze in the toilets water system. The other benefit is that it will ultimately end up in the black water tank, solving that problem also.
The only caveat here is if your fresh water tank for the toilet is also your drinking/bathing water supply. I would not want to drink or clean up with water containing RV anti-freeze (trace amounts, excepted). In that case you may want to design your water supply with two seperate tanks (which is what my small camper has).
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 01:19pm
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PA - this is not an issue. I do not have a toilet tank... It is an RV 1 pint toilet. You lift the lever, it fills with water, you then flush it down, and that is it. No toilet tank.
My indoor water system and my water lines will be emptied everytime I leave during winter. I made a special connection that allows me to connect my compressor into my system so I can empty all the lines. The main indoor tank, if there are any water in it, empties back into my underground cistern.
Only thing that can, and will, freeze... is my waste tank that sits outdoors.
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 02:49pm
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Optimistic
I get my figures from using propylene glycol on a regular basis from running an industrial cooling loop that goes to a free cooler on the roof in Rochester, NY. I test my glycol concentration with a refractormeter to get my level of freeze protection. I use pure glycol and not the diluted stuff. But my concentrations are to maintain flow with no solids. Generally 40 percent glycol. I believe you could get away with a lot less if you can tolerate chunks but 20 to 1 of an already diluted solution seems unlikely to work in Upstate winter. Keep in mind the RV stuff is diluted car stuff without additives for corrosion.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 04:41pm
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Jazz- I was in Rochester last week. My wife's family is from there and I do some business there as well.
Quoting: hueyjazz I believe you could get away with a lot less if you can tolerate chunks but 20 to 1 of an already diluted solution seems unlikely to work in Upstate winter
then how much do you think will suffice? Also, what product should I use?
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 06:37pm
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The water lines in the toilet are going to freeze if you don't flush it with low temp windshield wiper fluid (what i have been using for years)or rv anti freeze. Using a porta potty with a five gallon holding tank dumped into the outhouse(been doing it for years) would have eliminated a lot of headaches.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 06:45pm
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Water lines are indoor. While I am there they can't freeze because I am heating the cabin. When I leave they will be emptied like all the lines in the cabin (as well as rv pump, propane tankless heater, and so on..)
while we are on the topic of winterizing. I have this thing ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DH4LN/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) which is used to filter the water is they go into the indoor tank. Really a one shot per weekend deal. I can just unscrew it every time but it needs to be tighten to not leak and I would rather add something to it to empty it...
Any ideas?
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 06:58pm
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I am talking about the water lines that are in the toilet.
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 06:58pm
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Optimistic
First
I follow your cabin progress with great interest as you seem to be addressing some of the same issues I am or will be contending with. I have a cabin an hour South of Rochester and we use it year round. We bought it a year ago last October a there was much to do as the previous owner had some questionable installations. Currently I have no well or septic
How much glycol is a problematic question. What do you want out of this? If you keep the liquids out than very little but good luck draining the tank. If you want to drain the tank without warming it up then you need maybe 25% glycol. The amount of liquid varies so the best option is to meter the gycol in with the liquid so it will be proportional and mix. Urine has some amount of salt in it so you get a bit of a push there.
Love the idea of using the RV toilet. That tackles one issues I was going to have when I add well and septic. We use the cabin weekends during winter and fire up a wood stove. Weekdays it is in the deep freeze. I need systems that drain or blow out easy. Water lines and traps I figured out but a conventional toilet was going to be trouble. RV toilet will be a solution.
Nothing replaces a true throne. Your setup qualifies and the other thing I choose not to live without is a hot shower. Well will be easy for me but septic never is.
Currently we use a portable RV toilet. It works and really it isn't too bad. Normally we use it water-less, bag and burn. A screw lid bucket stored in the woodshed helps for pre-bonfire storage.
Gee I'm going to miss this....not
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 07:42pm
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How is sewer gas going to escape? This is not going to be vented as rv holding tanks are. These portable holding tanks are used by rv'ers that don't want to move their rvs to dump the holding tank. They are not typically used in the manner that you are using it. Good luck. I'm interested to find out how this works out for you.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 07:44pm
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Jazz- I haven't used the toilet yet but i'll give you the model and specs if you want. The benefit of it is that it is a regular size one... Also has a hand sprayer which might come in handy.
In regard to the hot shower... I cannot even explain how much I am looking forward to taking a shower in the cabin. I am hoping to do so next time... This is what will heat my water (already have it installed but not hooked up to the gas yet) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002Y0K6AI/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1
And because of my tight space to fit a shower base, as well as me wanting to avoid installing the whole water barrier and tile route - shower floor, I have bought this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/204168002?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&produc tId=204168002&R=204168002
the size is just perfect and I couldn't find a similar sized shower base for a normal price. Also the ability to come out of the side will make my life easy (and yes - I know I need to increase the 3/4" current size)
When all is installed - photos will be posted.
Back to my waste tank winterizing... The only reason I want to make sure it doesn't freeze solid is busting the tank (this is the tank btw - http://www.thetford.com/Home/Products/SmartToteTanks/tabid/225/Default.aspx)
So if the antifreeze just makes it slushi - that is great. I can wait on emptying it when the weather is warmer.... I will always make sure to empty it before going into winter as well.... I just need to make sure this thing doesn't bust. So adding 1-3 gallons per 20-30 gallons of waste is no big deal.
BTW - you don't need a well... My tiny 12x12' cabin roof catches so much water it is silly. My 300 gallon cistern was filled about 10 days after I installed it and there wasn't any serious rain. I am also very very pleased with the system I made for it... I will share it shortly.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 07:57pm
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silver lady - yes: this tank is not being used normally here. It has a built in one way air release valve and my 3" pvc pipe is vented on a tee.
If this built in air valve won't be enough - I will just take it out and make a bigger one. Next time we will test it and see... obviously not with real waste ;)
I also bought this to transport it when it's full:
http://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycle/cargo/aluminum-mobility-wheelchair -and-scooter-carrier-67599.html
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2014 08:06pm
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Compton
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 01:00pm
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optimistic
HI, I was wondering which hiding tank you use? also what connections do you need from the Dometic toilet to the waste tank?
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Compton
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# Posted: 19 Jun 2019 01:01pm
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*holding tank*
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DadGramps
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# Posted: 14 Jun 2020 03:06pm
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If you can, build a small enclosure, just sides and a roof, nothing fantastic, just mostly air and water tight. Then simply install a couple of flood lights in the enclosure to keep the freeze away. You could also use a 12 volt tank heater that we all have on our RV black/white/fresh water tanks.
Seems simple to me.
I'm preparing to install one at my cabin and use a 50 gallon holding tank inside a heated area and vent it to the outdoors. When full I'll use my macerator to run it to the septic tank without having to do any underground work.
CYa
Doc
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LittleDummerBoy
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2020 09:42pm
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You estimate 38 gallons every 3-4 months. (call it 16 weeks), as long as you keep using the outhouse.
That's about a quart and a half a day.
Just dump it in your outhouse. It must perk at least that much. At worst, dig another hole.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 16 Jun 2020 08:00am
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Dadgramps
Why not just put your toilet seat over the septic tank hole? No heaters and no pumps.
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LittleDummerBoy
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# Posted: 17 Jun 2020 09:02am
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Presumably, the wife has been using the outhouse too, so the amount of waste going into the outhouse wouldn't change. Adding 6 pints of water a day shouldn't make a difference.
Or dig a hole, fill it with straw, and call it a composting toilet.
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