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Smawgunner
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 11:27am - Edited by: Smawgunner
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Okay folks,...I think on grid electric is going to be too costly for them to run power lines to my cabin (over 5K). I'm socked in with two big foothills on either side of me so the sun rises and sets hours before/after it should. On top of that it is ALL wooded. So solar is out. What's my plan "C"? A generator is just too loud in my opinion. Thoughts???
I'm okay with oil lamps and I'm using a wood stove to heat...but things like hot water, cooking, refrigeration etc. ??
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Steve961
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 11:53am
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Propane. Hot water, cooking, and refrigeration can all be accomplished easily with propane. In fact, you would typically avoid heating water and cooking with solar power in most cases anyway. Any type of resistance heating is an inefficient use of solar power.
For the small electrical items like LED lights, laptops, etc., how about a small generator, such as an eu2000i converted to propane to charge a single 12V battery. You would probably only have to run the generator every few days for just a few hours, and with the propane conversion you'd never need to worry about refueling it.
BTW, the eu2000i is a VERY quiet generator. Put it in a shed and it's even more so.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 12:22pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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My cabin site is located where solar wont work. But, at the other end of the 5 acres is a spot that gets good exposure on Dec 21, the shortest day with sun at lowest angle. It's 500 feet away from the cabin, so a solar installer said I should configure my panels for higher voltage DC to transmit the power to the cabin, then do battery charge and inverter there.
Can you do the same? How many acres you got? Remember that a fixed solar panel can only produce current at max 8 hours a day cause the sun has to be at a certain angle to the panel before you get any decent amount of current. So if it was shaded early and late you still might get what you need. But, evidently you would have to cut trees. I see from your pics a road close by. Is one side of it south facing?
But even if this could work (and evidently you don't think so) a solar system large enough to run a fridge reliably will be costly. Forget about electric cooking or elec water heating. Good old fossil fuels- where would we be without them?
I really don't want to leave a generator running constantly even if it is quiet. They make LED battery lanterns now that last a long time. Mantle type oil lamps put out a lot of light. Propane stove and on demand water heater. Propane refrigerators are expensive and some people on this forum have expressed dissatisfaction with them. I'll use a cooler with ice.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 01:26pm
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Agree on the propane cooking, water heating and refrigeration. Most off grid setups can not do cooking or water heating with electrical power. Grid tie systems can but not stand alone. A good propane fridge like a Servel makes for good refrigeration. IMO, most people who have bad experiences with propane fridges are either, (a) doing something wrong, (b) have one of the large propane fridges. Large boxes do not cool down well. Our Servel makes ice if we want it to.
The Honda and Yamaha inverter generators are quiet and dependable. Converted to propane they last "forever" and require less maintenance. Still it is a fossil fuel user. Both H & Y have electric start inverter models that simplify things. Get an on ground 200+ gallon tank installed from a supplier who wiull rent the tank for a dollar a month or so as long as you buy their propane. That way the genny will "always" have fuel and you don't have to handle gasoline.
We have a 325 foot run from PV to cabin. Run high voltage (panels in series) for that run.
Just like there are lots that are unbuildable without spending a lot of cash, they are locations where there is no cheap way to get a supply of larger amounts of electricity as needed for electric ranges, big refrigerators or electrical heating.
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 03:33pm
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your between a couple hills, hills can serve to direct a steady wind depending on surrounding topography and prevailing wind direction. a 300 watt wind turbine can be installed for under $1000. I would suggest looking into it.
depending on your woodstove you can use it for hot water. besides the simple pot on a stove method, there are designs out there that use a coil of copper tubing against the back of the stove. cold water in the bottom of a water tank is drawn into the coils and hot water is sent back into the tank. its only a useful system in winter though.
I cook on my woodstove all winter. with a cast iron dutch oven I make breads and pies, fry potatoes, make soup and stews, and can even do some indoor grilling (those old style cast iron boxwood stoves are very versatile).
I don't have refrigeration but I get by keeping things in a cooler.
I suggest you also look into RV appliances that run on propane. you can usually find an old junker from the 70s for under $200, they are a real pain for junk metal dealers and salvage shops often refuse them, so you may be able to get one cheap. they often have a propane on demand water heater, furnace, refrigerator, and stove with an oven. the campers might have a leaky roof or collision damage but appliances may still work. I can't cook on my woodstove in summer and an extended rainy weather makes campfires impossible, I got a 3 burner RV range for $20 from a guy who had a broken down camper in his yard (salvage shops don't want them). the range also has a small oven. I ran a 10' grill type hose with a regulator to it and hooked up a 20 LB tank. works great. campers can also be a source of cheap cabinets for a small cabin, and most have DC electric systems that can be stripped out and used directly off a car battery.
if you drive there is also a battery charger for 12 volt batteries that runs from the accessory outlet or cigarette lighter. it was designed for quick charging in place of jumping and can be found at an auto parts store. if you have to do more than 20 minutes driving in a single day (such as any drive in a rural area) you can put a battery on it on the floor in front of the passenger seat and charge it as you travel (great for marine batteries with carry handles). a good marine battery with 110 Amp hours will last 2 or 3 weeks between charging if your just using it to run a single low energy light bulb.
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 03:34pm
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if you have stream access (low point between hills) you may be able to set up a small hydroelectric power generator.
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groingo
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 03:39pm
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I guess it all depends on how many square foot cabin you have. how it is insulated and what your power requirements are and if you have a stream available what the flow rate might be.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 04:31pm
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For me,my little Honda eu2000i is running this computer right now.It's also charging up my 12 volt battery bank system to power up my lighting system, charging up my cell phone,running my frig controls and my water pump.So I have these 4 things 24/7 with or without the generator running.I run my genny 6 to 8 hours a day on average.Costs me about 20 bucks a week for gas.Propane gives me refrigeration,heat,hot water and cooking/baking.Life is good with out grid power.
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rockies
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 05:42pm
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I plan on using an indoor wood fired furnace from "Profab" http://www.profab.org/products/profabproducts/elite/
I don't want to take up space in a small cabin with a wood stove that sits unused for 6 months of the year, plus the mess from hauling in wood and hauling out ash and soot. The Profab goes inside a small outbuilding, so even in winter you're not standing in a snow drift loading firewood like you would with an "outdoor" furnace, plus you get free hot water all year long (the excess heat from the furnace in summer stays out in the shed) The cabin itself is heated with radiant floor tubing and you can also heat accessory buildings. Propane would be fine for cooking and refridgeration, or you could also build a "summer kitchen" in a separate building as back-up with a wood cook stove" in it. That would leave a very small solar requirement for lights, and maybe a tv or computer.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 06:24pm
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rockies: how do you get the heat from the outdoor wood burning stove into the cabin and the hot water? How can you have radient heated floors in a cabin that is not heated full time? I'm curious because this system may be something we could use when retirement rolls around and we are able to spend some time at our cabin in the winter.
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creeky
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 07:00pm
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bldginsp. those new 600v solar controllers sound like they were made for you. you could run 600 ft of 10g wire at 480v and 10 amps and still be well under 3% voltage drop. that's just a lot of power...
smawgunner. solar is pricey upfront. but you do save after. is there no solar window?
don't mean to harp on about the new solar controllers from schneider/xantrex, morningstar, midnight solar. but this really is a revolution in what/where you can put solar panels.
it just amazes me that I could move all my panels to my farms middle field (400 feet away from my batteries, but no trees!) and run them to the charge controller with 10g wire and be way under 2% voltage drop. sheesh.
I dug 150 feet of buried cable this year. so 400 feet is not that daunting. i think a 1000 ft of 10g uf is what. $350? nothing. really.
rockies. that empyre looks okay. 60,000 btus tho. how big are you building?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 08:00pm
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Creeky- you mean they are making 600 volt charge controllers or inverters? Haven't studied this stuff yet- so the 480v array ties directly to a charge controller, which knocks the voltage down to the battery voltage, correct? Then you tie the inverter to the batteries or to the charge controller? I'm new to batteries...
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Smawgunner
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2013 08:41pm
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rayyy
Quoting: rayyy For me,my little Honda eu2000i is running this computer right now.It's also charging up my 12 volt battery bank system to power up my lighting system, charging up my cell phone,running my frig controls and my water pump.So I have these 4 things 24/7 with or without the generator running.I run my genny 6 to 8 hours a day on average.Costs me about 20 bucks a week for gas.Propane gives me refrigeration,heat,hot water and cooking/baking.Life is good with out grid power.
Ray...can you contact me off line. Your set up intrigues me.
Allen Banks2070@wowway.com
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Danielcan
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2013 01:18am
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you might look into canning and dryed goods to replace your fridge. you can can meat, and pickle eggs, or buy powdered eggs and jerky. its not difficult or expensive to can, and meat is cooked when you open the jar. Canning can be done on a propane turkey fryer element, and you could swap your oil lamps for propane ones (I like the lamps with pre-formed mantles). That way you would only have one clean and safe fuel to deal with.
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creeky
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# Posted: 7 Nov 2013 07:50am
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yes. 600v solar charge controllers. the power comes from your panels. to the controller. to your batteries. to your inverter.
the morningstar is shipping now. but it's pretty spendy at 1200 bucks.
I'm not sure if the schneider is shipping yet. and i think the midnight solar has been out for awhile.
but when you think of all those folks who had to run long lines of fat copper cable (you hear stories of a thousand feet of 4/0) ... and now you can use standard 10 gauge. wow.
one catch is that you have to use a 48v battery pack minimum.
still. wonderful how the technology progresses.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2013 07:30am
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I tried to email you Smawgunner.Won't go through.If your interested I can make a new/indepth video of my cabin's utilitie's set up and post it on here?
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jammo
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2013 09:19am
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I'd be interested to see that video. Thanks.
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Smawgunner
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2013 09:58am
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That'd be great Ray! I probably confused you...my email was just Banks2070@wowway.com
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