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cabinbiscuit
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 11:30am
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Before the replies about the dangers of carbon monoxide start pouring in, I am fully aware of the dangers of CO.
What I'm curious to know though is how many people have mounted the portable tankless heaters like the Eccotemp L5,L7,L10 or an EZ Tankless EZ 101, or EZ 202 inside of their cabins. I noticed that although EZ Tankless says to choose an outdoor location for their units on their site they then later on the same page mention if you are going to mount it indoors it requires a minimum room combustion space of 4050 cubic feet.
I'm just curious how much heat and odor are given off by these units. I'm in the process of planning my off grid water system and putting one of these outside the building during the winter during below freezing temps doesn't seem like a good long term solution.
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Deerfan
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 03:52pm
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We use a Zodi hot water and shower system in our cabin and really like it. We just have the window cracked in the shower room and have no trouble with odor or CO at all. We have a CO detector in the cabin also, which I think is absolutely necessary. When we are done using water heater it's disconnected and 20 lb tank is put outside. I'm not saying that this is oppropreate for everyone.
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rayyy
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 04:32pm
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I admit I have an eccotemp L5 in my bathroom.BUT,,,I only take a 2 minute shower every morning.My bathroom is ventelated very well with outside fresh air and I have a high CO detector on at all times.You have to be carefull.The stuff is deadly so respect it.
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MJW
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 05:53pm
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We were looking at the tankless water heaters and really wanted to use one but after considering all the facts with whether or not to install inside or outside, CO issue if mounted inside, freezing weather issues if mounted outside, we decided on a 40 gal propane model.
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cabinbiscuit
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 07:13pm
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Guys and/or Gals- Thanks for the responses, especially in light of my first sentence. I was tired when I started this thread this morning. After posting it I read the first sentence and thought, boy that sounds abrasive. I couldn't figure out how to edit my original post, so I was stuck with it.
Anyway my dilemma is that I want to use one of these little water heaters in my little building, but I want to figure a way to mount it inside if possible. I want to mount it inside so that I can use it and not have to worry about it freezing between uses if I am at camp during the freezing winter months.
I plan to use the heater for a shower, bathroom sink and kitchen sink, and only want to have to drain the water lines once per trip in the winter. The only heat I will have will be a coal/wood stove so when no one is there, there will be no heat at all. The building is completely off-grid so I can't use an electric heat tape or anything like that and since I plan on using the building during the winter I want to keep the line draining process as simple as possible.
What I'm trying to figure out is whether I can use one of these things inside the building (along with a CO detector and a smoke detector of course) without gasing myself out whether that gas is CO or stinky propane smelling exhaust. My building is 16x20 with 9' ceilings on the first floor and a second floor which is about 9'6" to the peak of the roof although the roof is a gambrel style. I think I am definitely over the 4050 cubic feet that the EZ Tankless site was talking about. I'm not against partially opening a window to allow fresh air in as well.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 07:28pm
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I don't understand the willingness of some people to subject themselves to poisons tho i do understand wanting to save money by buying the cheaper water heater but we each make our own choices.
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optimistic
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 07:33pm
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I spoke with an engineer from EZ tankless. they said you can use it indoors and it is better in an open space (living area than bathroom).
I really think this is crazy to be afraid of.... You cook indoors all the time. What's the difference?
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cabinbiscuit
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 07:35pm
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Quoting: Anonymous I don't understand the willingness of some people to subject themselves to poisons tho i do understand wanting to save money by buying the cheaper water heater but we each make our own choices.
Mr. Anonymous- What cheaper water heater are you referring to, or by cheaper do you mean that I should put my building on grid with electric in order to have hot water.
As far as not understanding, that's ok there is no need for you to understand me.
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cabinbiscuit
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 07:42pm
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Quoting: optimistic I really think this is crazy to be afraid of.... You cook indoors all the time. What's the difference?
Opti- You are right there, and with the type of building construction involved here, I think there will be plenty of air exchange due to leakage through the building itself to keep the levels low. I was just hoping to draw on the experiences of the other rebels here who have walked this road before me.
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beachman
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 08:45pm
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I have a Bosch 1600LP tankless propane water heater that I have installed inside the bathroom - against the mfr. recommendations. I will make a small vent in the wall to the rest of the cabin if necessary. I have provided for exhaust with a 5in. chimney up through the roof. This will be a problem for you in the winter as it will draw cold air down and freeze the unit. I will follow this thread because I too have no electric and the place freezes between visits. I take my heater home for the winter. I have a Zodi unit that I could use in the winter if I make sure I blow all the water out. Grey water drainage would also be a problem. Not sure how to handle this?
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 09:39pm
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The easy rule of thumb here is to use appliances rated for the outdoors,OUTDOORS no exceptions. There is no way I would advise you otherwise and I don't know why anybody else would.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 09:45pm
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Quoting: cabinbiscuit What cheaper water heater are you referring to
a non vented heater is cheaper than a vented heater
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davey25
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 09:49pm
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I have a propane fridge burning 24/7 ..no different..no problems at all..co2 hooked up directly to fridge though
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 09:49pm
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Some of the EZ Tankless are made for indoor use. The person you spoke to is an ass to tell you using a outdoor appliance indoors is ok. It amazes me that some of you would put your familes lifes at risk to save a few bucks> It is not just the risk of CO poisioning you are also at a risk of explosion. But you know anything to save money.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 09:51pm
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UMMMMM-Are your propane appliances VENTED?
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Sustainusfarm
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 10:16pm
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I have an unvented heater in the cabin for the last 10 yrs....it was made to be unvented...along with that we use propane to run the stove and oven. Running the oven uses and expels more "fumes" than an on demand hot water heater....I have 3 co detectors on all the time and never have they gone off even with all three things running....not saying this is right but the heater and the stove are made to run unvented and do no harm....
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freedomseeker
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 11:32pm
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Hello, I am no expert but I do know that if this water heater were to be sealed off from the living space completely ( fire rated like a garage to a house ) you could install holes to the outside of the structure sized at 50 square inches per thousand btu, open space so if you put a grill on the opening be sure to oversize hole to account for louvers. With this setup by the space is considered outside of the envelope of the building. These openings can easily be covered with whatever when no one is there. As far as the water freezing issue, water freezes man drain the lines. Now for the graywater tank itself, I know an oldtime farmer who once told me how they used to take a 1" or so steel pipe that had two elbows like a gooseneck and this gooseneck pipe was pounded about 5-7' into the ground, removed and cleared of dirt, then the pipe was put back into the hole so that a shorter pipe on the face side of the gooseneck went down near the bottom of the animals water trough. And with the power of the earth the trough would never freeze, so he says down to -20. I reckon a person could somehow harness this heat from the earth for your application.
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dk1393
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 08:40am
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Marey makes a tankless water heater that is fairly cheap. They can be mounted indoors. Thay sell for around $225. I don't know much about them other than they are out there.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 12:10pm
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I have a Takagi Jr tankless heater. It is in my outbuilding, and vented outside. This thing produces enough exhaust that it has to be. However, it is a 4 or 5 inch duct. Like a dryer vent. You could absolutely use this indoors in your cabin, but HAS to be vented. It is not a big deal to drill a small hole.
It's odd that I have never once seen anyone mention this heater on this site. The thing is awesome. It has been in service since 2007. I drain it and blow it out when I leave. It is in No. Idaho, so definitely winter conditions. They are approximately $650. I can take a 1200 gallon shower if I chose to.
I also have a propane fridge that is not vented, and I have never once smelled it or had an issue.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 03:11pm
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I'm going to use a Bosch 330 tankless water heater mounted inside the cabin. It uses a B type vent to vent the gasses through the roof. These units cost about $400 which is more than the smaller heaters that are made to mount outside, but not too much more, for my budget, anyway. Most indoor units that use a vent pipe require an electrical hookup, the 330 does not. It has a standing pilot. I agree with the post above that I want the heater inside so it won't freeze at night during my visit. When I leave I'll drain it and the whole water system with compressed air.
freedomseeker- the rule you are talking about is regarding combustion air, and is not intended to allow products of combustion (flu gasses) inside the house. If the space in which the gas burning appliance has a total volume of 50 sq ft for every 1000 BTUs on the appliance(s), you don't need to supply additional combustion air for the appliances from the outside. In a smaller space you do need to supply the combustion air. A two car garage is right on the border of being large enough for a water heater and a furnace.
But this is only regarding combustion air, and the building codes assume that the appliances will be vented to the outside of the building in all cases except your kitchen stove.
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cabinbiscuit
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 07:00pm
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bldginsp- The Bosch 330 looks like a very nice unit. I suspect by the time I bought the B-Vent and the unit itself it would probably be somewhere about $800 or so as a guess.
wakeslayer- The Takagi Jr looks nice too, but it looks like it requires 120v so that rules that one out for me.
dk1393- I like the looks of the Marey units and the price seems good as well although they still need to be vented. I would like to avoid running a B-Vent up through my second floor if I can help it, since right now the entire second floor is one large open room. It doesn't seem like sidewall venting is really an option with any of these things, especially in light of the amount of wind that we have on top of the mountain.
Sustainusfarm- Do you know what make and model of heater you have?
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 09:23pm
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B vents are cheap, they are galvanized steel and available at any larger hardware store. Total instal, before piping etc, will be less than $500.
To follow code carefully, such a water heater in a sleeping area should be installed in a sealed closet, with sealed door, combustion air taken in from outside, and a sealed chase surrounding the vent up to the roof. Complicates the instal, but makes it safer.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 11:14pm
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Quoting: bldginsp such a water heater in a sleeping area should be installed in a sealed closet, with sealed door, combustion air taken in from outside, and a sealed chase surrounding the vent up to the roof. Complicates the instal, but makes it safer.
and it might make for better, worry free sleep not to mention a longer life. there is science behind the rules in the code
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 11:25pm
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nobody mentioned the amount of water vapor produced and dumped into the interior air when non vented heaters are used.
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jaransont3
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 12:09am - Edited by: jaransont3
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We are going with the Eccotemp FVI-12 water heater.
Eccotemp FVI-12
A bit more expensive, but it does include a horizontal vent kit for the $339.
It does require some power....2W idle and 128W when in use. So not going to work if you have no power available.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 01:45am
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We have used a Bosch gwh425 for the last four years.
It is an outdoor model that doesn't require electricity.
It has built in heaters to prevent freezing but we are off grid, so we installed it so it hangs on the back wall of the cabin and has couplings that can be disconnected in about two minutes. If the weatherman says it will freeze, or if I plan to be away for a while, I can just unhook it and bring it inside. It weighs about 50lbs.
Burning propane inside makes a ton of water vapor and soot, even if you don't mind the CO.
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cabinbiscuit
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 10:38am
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jaransont3
Yes you're correct unfortunately in my case with my building being off grid the 120 volt requirement would rule you're model out for me but that unit may work well for others who read this thread so thanks for the info on that unit.
I'm starting to lean toward a dual type of installation where I could install one of the portable units outside for the majority of the year and then move it inside for the few times during the winter when i would be there and need it during the freezing months. The water vapor shouldn't be too much of a problem with the minimal use the unit will receive coupled with the dry winter air and wood/coal stove. At least that's what I'm thinking.
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VTweekender
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 12:37pm - Edited by: VTweekender
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I would not mount an outside unit on the inside, why take the chance.....An easy solution if you have a shower stall and a wood stove is to use a spot sprayer and a car battery........sprayer here http://www.amazon.com/BE-Pressure-90-700-150-Gallon-Sprayer/dp/B003G5A5HO/ref=pd_sim_ sbs_auto_2 ......heat a big pot of water on the stove and pour it into the sprayer, great shower...many use this method for the winter indoor showers, doing dishes etc....total investment about $170 with a wallymart car battery, and zero chance of sick or killed...
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 12:52pm
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This is about an on-demand waterheater that burns propane while the hot water is "on". How many minutes a day is the hot water running? All the other minutes the thing is OFF. Dont worry about it and theres no smell at all. Most of the concern is because peolpe get killed by heaters while they are sleeping, doors closed, not opening a door to go in and out, and asleep not paying attention. Its not the same problem at all you are not running it for hours while sleeping. Think of it like a fridge or a stove.
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cabinbiscuit
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 01:38pm
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Anonymous
Quoting: Anonymous This is about an on-demand waterheater that burns propane while the hot water is "on". How many minutes a day is the hot water running? All the other minutes the thing is OFF. Dont worry about it and theres no smell at all. Most of the concern is because peolpe get killed by heaters while they are sleeping, doors closed, not opening a door to go in and out, and asleep not paying attention. Its not the same problem at all you are not running it for hours while sleeping. Think of it like a fridge or a stove.
My thoughts exactly.
Personally I'm more worried about getting killed in a car crash on the way to or from camp, and I think statistically that's way more likely.
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