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bukhntr
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2013 10:57pm
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looking for ideas for off grid lighting, I am only there a couple of days at a time. I don't really want to run any appliances just looking for good light. individual rechargable lamps is what I had in mind. Cabin is 12x28. Setting up solar system seems a lot of work and expense for just lighting
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 09:33am
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a couple days at a time? if your using only a few hours light get an extra car battery (you can charge with your vehicle on site as needed with jumper cables). get a cheaper inverter (200 watt can be as cheap as $20). a plastic battery box too. keep the battery charged at home with a cheap 2 amp charger and charge on site if needed. plug inverter into battery and power a regular table lamp with a low energy CF lightbulb.
I used a setup like this when i need light away from my main building. a lawn and garden battery i kept in the box with the inverter and plugged in a light as i needed it (box carried all the stuff in it) with only about 20 watts used by the CF lamp the cheap $25 battery provided up to 8 hours, a car battery provided about 40 hours.
my office does ERT (emergency responce team) and partners with FEMA, I assesed the feasibility of this setup for long term power outages after some friends asked my advice (past ice storms have taken power out up to 3 weeks in the past) the setup described should cost no more than $90, and it will also help to charge AA batteries for flashlights, cell phones, and Ipods (with chargers).
you could also get a couple oil lamps/kerosine lamps.
hope this helps
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VTweekender
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 10:06am
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You also could use solar lights instead of a whole solar setup, the lights come ready to use right out of the package with small solar panels included. The wire from the small solar panel to the light is usually about 10 ft. long , just go through the wall and fasten panel outside edge of roof, they will go about 8 hours before needing sunlight to recharge again. One LED brand that works good are called "solar everlites" , just google them, about $60 each. This way constant manual recharging is eliminated for rechargables.
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groingo
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 11:28am
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Depending on the amount of space you want to light, I have a 10 by 20 cabin, I use two Fiet (120 volt) 2 watt LED bulbs which are equivalent to a 25 watt bulb but you can get them to put out what feels like 40 to 60 watts worth of light by using a frosted lamp shade which really spreads the light out, great for seeing and reading and only 2 watts each.
Total cost, Battery, 200 watt inverter and lights (you supply fixtures)...under 120 bucks.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 01:56pm
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I have all 12 volt dc lighting.some CFL's and some LED,s.Iv'e been very happy with this layout.When folk's come to visit,they don't ever realize that I'm off grid.The only give-away is if I'm watching t.v. or computer and they hear the wirr of the generator running outside.The frig,back up heat,hot water and cookstove are all propane.Battery powered lighting has come a long way in the past few years.
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Moving Pictures
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 06:02pm
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Consider some DC led lights.
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bukhntr
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 08:08pm
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Thanks this sounds pretty promising. Would a deep cycle battery do better. I have a 12x28 single room cabin, Im thinking of two table lamps and some kind of hanging fixture above the table as well as some directional lighting in the kitchenette which is just a few feet from the table any way. would this be as simple as running these outlets to a pig tail (s) that would plug into the inverter? How many batteries would you consider.
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bukhntr
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 08:10pm
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This reply was for the wildman
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bukhntr
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 08:27pm
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Thanks groingo. Where did you get the 2 wat bulbs. I found some 7 wat bulbs online Home depot for 60wat output. Wonder how long they would last on a battery
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Moving Pictures
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 08:36pm
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Quoting: bukhntr Thanks groingo. Where did you get the 2 wat bulbs. I found some 7 wat bulbs online Home depot for 60wat output. Wonder how long they would last on a battery
Looks to me like you may want to brush up on battery physics. A typical deep-cycle marine battery may offer, say, 120 amp-hours. If your seven-watt bulb is a 120-volt LED, then it's going to draw, for the sake of argument, about an amp once you factor in inverter inefficiencies. One amp can be sustained by your battery for about 60 hours before it hits 50 per cent depth of discharge: pretty much as far as you want it to go.
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groingo
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2013 11:58pm
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Thanks groingo. Where did you get the 2 wat bulbs. I found some 7 wat bulbs online Home depot for 60wat output. Wonder how long they would last on a battery
The lights are available at Walmart, they look like a small incandescent and are designed to be used in a ceiling fan part number E170906 and they just screw into a standard socket and are around $6.00 each.
I think with three on at a time 6 watts and most any 12 volt 75 amp hour car battery would easily do the job for a weekend.
I have two pole lamps each has a top fixture and three feet below that is a flexible two foot reading lamp so you can put the light where you want it, new they are around $19.00 each at WM and they come with the white plastic shade that really amplifies and spreads out the light!
For such a small area I'd just use light duty extension chords.
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toofewweekends
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2013 12:01am
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We use a similar size place (16x20) in Alaska 2x a month roughly, 2-3 days at a time. We're 3 miles off the highway. A pair of 6v batteries, a 300w inverter and a 100w panel make all the cfl lights go, plus charge phones, run an occasional DVD movie, etc. We're wired for 110, so all our lamps are just regular garage sale stuff. Solar pretty much does the trick from February thru October, then the sun's too low and we top off with a generator. The generator takes care of high draw tools, toaster, etc. If you're in a sunnier location, you might do close to year round with solar.
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bukhntr
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2013 10:12pm
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what guage wire did u use to run power from the inverter to the outlets.
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sparky1
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2013 11:18am
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I bought 4 of these 12 volt DC-& are very bright-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261144496354?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l26 49
just ordered 4 more. I'm converting all my place to 12 volt lighting.
I have 145 watt panel & a 45 watt Harbor Freight set up,, charging batteries.NOT using any inverter-it's a waste of power to convert to 120 for Lighting.
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2013 12:13pm
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DC power looses a charge as it moves from source to where its used, the smaller the distance the better. AC remains about the same over a long distance (why the power lines run an AC current, a DC current could never go further than a mile from the power plant). that said,
sorry about the delay in responce, don't have internet at home so i only get here once or twice a week. if you are using CF lights that use only a few watts (13 watts for 60 watt equivelant), add for inverter inefficency (lets say 15 watts per bulb per hour) you could run 4 of these bulbs with 60 watts an hour (i reccomend only using 1 or 2 unless a lot of light is needed). the lamp doesn't dictate the power it uses, the bulb in the lamp does-though some lamps can use bigger bulbs. you can set an inverter with the battery in a central location and run a power strip on the inverter and run cords toi each lamp. 60 watts is about 5 Amp hours, if you run 60 watts for 10 hours you would use 50 amps, a little less than half of an RV/marine battery (you can get a 109 amp RV battery at wallyworld for about $75). at this point you would need to recharge the battery. if your running only 2 bulbs you can run them for 20 hours, 1 bulb for 40 hours, the figures double if you have a second battery. if your only going to need lights for a couple days, figure out how many hours you will need them, in sumer you may only need 1 or 2 hours a day, winter you could need as many as 8. in sumer a single battery could provide light for up to 3 weeks, in winter it might only be 3 or 4 days.
at my place i set up light fixtures and outlets onto 120 volt AC wires and these converge into a single AC plug that is plugged into the inverter. (I'm not an electrician and they would cringe at the way i did it using parts i salvaged from a camper). when i need a lot of light i can turn on the inverter and turn on the AC lighting (a wall switch turns on 2 lights on the cealing lighting the whole cabin). i also ran a couple DC lights with toggle switches all over the cabin, each runs on 5 watts but doesn't give off a whole lot of light so i situated them where i would need them (1 over the bed, 1 over the kitchen sink, 1 by the door) the inverter used power if left on even if its not used so unless i need the bright AC lights i leave the inverter off, as i enter the cabin i switch on the DC lights so i can see, they don't use power when switched off.
my cabin is 12x20 (with a 12x8 unheated addition/covered porch) the AC lights i use are enough to see the shadow of a mosquitto on the wall on the other side of the room (before bed i use a swatter to hunt them so don't hear them all night).
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2013 02:24pm
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Quoting: bukhntr what guage wire did u use to run power from the inverter to the outlets.
Bukhntr, typical household outlet is a 15 amp, so this would mean 14AWG wire.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2013 02:31pm
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Quoting: TheWildMan AC remains about the same over a long distance (why the power lines run an AC current, a DC current could never go further than a mile from the power plant)
Not to mention, a transformer to step up (boost) or step down voltages using AC works well, if it was DC, there would have to me some device to turn the primary side of the transformer voltage on and off for the transformer to work. With AC, this is done each time the AC cycles or reveres polarity which is about once per second. (60Hz)
And for long runs, one could just boost voltage way up using AC and transformers, higher voltage needs smaller wire. This is perfect if demands for a line/service feeder goes way beyond what the wire size can handle, just bump voltage way up, keep the smaller wire, then as you get to the load area, step it back down to household voltages. 
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Moving Pictures
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2013 10:05pm
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Quoting: TheWildMan DC power looses a charge as it moves from source to where its used, the smaller the distance the better. AC remains about the same over a long distance (why the power lines run an AC current, a DC current could never go further than a mile from the power plant).
Utterly incorrect. In fact, High-voltage DC power is used for power transmission on a large, large scale.
The loss is not a function of whether the current is AC or DC, but what the current IS. Power is an expression of volts x amps. Power loss in a wire is a function of the square of the current times the resistance of the conductor. How do you reduce power loss? By increasing the voltage. Thus, a 120 vac line carrying 1000 watts will have less power loss over the same distance as a 12 vac line carrying the same 1000 watts. A 120 VDC line carrying 1000 watts would have the same power loss as a 120 VAC line.
For that reason, I have my solar modules wired in series to bring the voltage up, rather than wiring them in parallel and increasing the current.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2013 10:49pm
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However, the problem with high voltage DC is that the equipment to raise or drop the voltage is more costly than the transformers we can use with AC. I too have selected to wire our PV modules in series for the run to the charge controller. hat was a no-brainer. But it does not seem practical for me to use DC for the run from the CC / Battery Bank location to the shed or the barn. We run AC to the outbuildings.
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creeky
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2013 08:40pm
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As I understand it:
DC power is used by the longest transmission line on earth. In Brazil. Here in Canada we have a thousand kilometer(s)/mile transmission line ... running at over 700,000 volts AC.
How complicated does this get: Well I use 48 volts DC from my solar panels - that I convert to 12v for my battery bank - that I convert to 120v AC to my cabin - that I convert to 19v DC for the laptop computer that I use to write this ...
AC has a lot of benefits. Esp. as it leverages the largest install base (ie. lights, appliances, plugs, switches etc etc). But also, when you invert DC to AC you get 120v at 60 hz. A nice stable voltage to build around.
DC is great too. Find a solar panel with AC output. But part of the equation with your DC source is it could be (in just a 12v scenario) 11 to 16v if you're connected direct to your battery system. So you still may need voltage regulation.
And try to find 12v lights/appliances/switches. Not too bad, but still, pricey, due to the smaller install base (and benefiting from the automotive 12v base).
Now try to find 24v or 48 volt DC lights etc. Good luck.And look at the price tag.
I guess it comes down to usage. When I started out with a small offgrid application I could happily use 12v DC. Switches, fixtures and current filters are available.
But when I was here more than weekends... and wanted internet, tv, microwave, three way switches, outlets, lights, pumps ... I began to invert to AC anyway; so why build in the extra expense of DC 12v fixtures?
I guess we live in an ac/dc universe. Drum solo starting now ...
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rayyy
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2013 07:45pm
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http://www.ledlight.com/7-watt-led-light-12v-ac-dc-ncnr.aspx Although this is not the bulb's I bought,it is simular in wattage.I know it's pricy but to get the equivelent of a 55 watt incandescant light bulb using only 7 watt's 12 volt DC. I'm very happy with mine.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2013 07:55pm
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/12W-201-LED-E27-Corn-light-Bulb-DC-12V-24V-6000K-Energy-Savin g-80w-incandescent-/221176826598?pt=US_Light_Bulbs&hash=item337f2a8ae6
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rayyy
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2013 08:01pm
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-E27-DC12V-Warm-White-LED-Ceiling-Globe-Light-Lamp-Bulb-6 W-/180978058061?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a2322034d
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rayyy
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2013 08:06pm - Edited by: rayyy
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Also wanted to show you that these light bulb's are powered off of a 12 volt DC battery(just like your car,s headlights).How you charge this battery up is up to you.Whether your useing solar panels and controller or a wind mill or a gas generator running a 120 volt ac battery charger,or even a home made bicycle cranking on an automotive alternator or even just running off of the battery in your car or truck.As long as you have a 12 volt dc powersorce.
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Moving Pictures
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2013 08:32pm
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I purchased one of these
URL
And liked it a whole bunch. How much? Our new house will have NOT ONE AC/CFL LIGHT. We're going to buy about 20 of these, I figure.
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bukhntr
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2013 09:36pm
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the pic of the light, got any information on it I did not see a link and have not seen anything like it before. Thanks all of you for your input
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2013 09:53pm
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looks like it might be this one
135 lumens... about equivalent to a 15 to 20 watt incandescent for a familiar reference. ???
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