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Anonymous
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2012 06:39am
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So I've forgotten my user name and password. I'll work that out later. For the moment, the topic more or less says it all.
my understanding:
-the avg home uses 50-60 kwh a day.
-this means roughly 2000-3000 watts per hour avg.
however when sleeping there is obviously a dip in consumption, the reverse is also true.
Alternate energy
-solar: obviously only when the sun is up. (so for me thats somewhere between 6-8 hrs or good viable time)
-wind.. sketchy on the reliability.
-hydro (well if you have access, low yield but constant)
-tidal (interested in. seems also low yield but constant)
So there are a few choices of property. 2 have rivers/streams. I worry about the rights and environmental impact however I think with a floating water wheel it might be acceptable.
Tidal requires more research and probably a lot more capital to set up that I don't have.
Wind is unreliable but may offer a supplemental source.
Solar... How big of a solar field? It's been a while since I've done the math but I assume the need of roughly 3000w an hr. so if i wanted (3000wx24 hrs)/6hrs of sunlight = 12000 w of solar power panels (if they all pulled in 100% for a minimum of 6hrs a day)
so more math time. found 240 panels for roughly 350$.
so roughly 1000w costs 1400$.
1400$ x 12 = ~17000.
Is that right? if I wanted to live a near "city" normal life ... well I mean my design is a lot smaller than the avg 3 bedroom 2 story home. but basic theory and the math is right?
So this leads me back to the "is it possible?" I'm not interested in the "you should be more conservative" mentality as thats for me to work out for myself and my family as I finish up design and pick which property is best suited for our needs.
Is it possible? Could a person live a fully "normal" tv, washing machine, dishwasher, microwaves, satelite, nintendo etcetcetc on alternate non-grid power?
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2012 07:52am
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2-3kw is a huge amount. Unless you are running a granite saw or something, you aren't using 60,000wh per day 
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Dillio187
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2012 09:02am
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when it comes to solar, conservation should be your first step.
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Sustainusfarm
Member
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2012 09:03am - Edited by: Sustainusfarm
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Some cities don't allow wind turbines, then there is the water sewer issue... The water you use is directly related to what they charge you for sewer... Some cities don't allow solar panels on the roof either.. Here I wanted to use rain water to flush toilets and do laundry. Well, that is illegal here because there is no way to be able to charge for sewer since it is figured based off of how much water I use through the city meter!!
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GomerPile
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2012 11:07am - Edited by: GomerPile
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There is another way, but you might not like it. I used to live in a grid connected place and consumed 450-600kwh per month (15-20 kwh per day). I have switched to 100% off grid and now use about 1.8kwh per month (.06 kwh per day). I am powered by 130W of PV panel and a 200AH battery bank. I have a 2000W generator for power tools.
My stored power usage includes, lights, computer, internet, well pump, etc. It does not include use of power tools which run from the generator.
Here's how I do it:
+ Fridge replaced with an ice chest (love it! ice cold drinks)
+ Make ice at work
+ No AC (small 12v boat fan)
+ No TV (iPad instead)
+ 100% LED lighting
+ ON/OFF switches on EVERYTHING....and use them
+ 12V powered DSL modem
+ small inverter to power misc small things like electric toothbrush, shaver, etc.
+ AA battery powered devices where possible with solar charger
+ Electronic device chargers in car (charge while driving, 1hr commute)
+ No washing machine...use laundrymat or wash/dry by hand.
+ Laser printer runs from generator (use once a month maybe)
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groingo
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2012 11:55am - Edited by: groingo
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The most cost effective way to reduce your energy bill significantly is to reduce consumption and find or invent more efficient ways of doing the same thing or identify and eliminate non essential things.
For me I have a code I live by, the key to independence is to "eliminate electricity form the equation completely" yet you must still be able to live comfortably and of course whatever you do must make financial sense, what you invest must show realistic payback, now, pitch that tent in your living room and start planning!
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2012 11:21pm
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so not so sound ungrateful, because I do appreciate so much of the advice, time and effort given to helping people like myself (rookies to the self sustained life)
but the question was really is it possible?
I even state "i'm not interested in the "conserve doctrine" (well I am but thats not what i'm curious about)
I'm asking, is the math correct? Would it cost roughly 17k in solar panels + cost of building/connecting/batteries/other hardware to live a "typical city lifestyle" with all the bells whistles and luxuries but completely in the back woods off the grid?
This is all in the hypothetical. I'm not designing a 2 storey 3 bed 2 bath home. I'm not against conserving. But I'm curious if it is possible for a person (or in my case family) to live with luxuries in a sustainable, off grid life style.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2012 11:58pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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It is possible with careful planning and use. The refrigerator is a potential problem, though if you can make a chest type work for you they use much less power. SunDanzer has them as well as a new freezer that is very efficient and holds freezing temperatures for days without power. Many folks still use propane fridges though. Everyone off grid who I know does.
A well pump can also be another be draw on the power. I have a friend who lives off grid and has no well. They collect rainwater; they have tanks for 15,000 gallons to cover the dry summer. Enough water for household use and a garden.
The same friend has a Sanyo split mini heat pump. It cools in the summer and also supplies heat in the winter. It's very efficient and is programmable for power use. Most other brands are not.
A big help to them is that their 2000 watts of PV modules are on trackers. They have two poles with trackers and they follow the sun automatically every day, dawn too dusk.
Their hot water comes from a separate solar water heater collector. Works very well. The heater uses propane when necessary. Cooking is a gas range. (beware; not all gas range ovens are suitable for off grid use as many have heater bars that have to be powered for the oven to work. Premier makes some nice off grid compatible ranges.)
It is not cheap to build / buy a system like theirs, but many have done it. Over ten years he has designed / installed over 50 systems in California. Most are owned by people who live fairly normal electrical lives. Large battery banks using batteries like Rolls and Surette.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2012 12:00am - Edited by: groingo
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Anything is possible, it all depends on the context you are willing to apply, for example, do you plan on using an electric stove and oven with an electric hot tub with 50 cubic foot frost free freezer or will you be willing to make a change to be more efficient?
You can undoubtedly make all the energy you want in many ways and if you have deep pockets you can, for example my brother uses more energy in one day than I use in three months and there is only himself and wife, I am a minimalist with standards my brother is the norm so I guess your question is yes you can but why?....what are your reasons?
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2012 12:14am
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My friend has no generator at all and does not run out of power; the panel tracker helps with that.
You can also get generators with autostart circuits in case of low power on the batteries.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2012 06:17am
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Hey guys, thanks for indulging my curiousity and giving me some things to think about that I hadn't even considered.
Really appreciate the info.
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hattie
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2012 02:38pm
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We had looked into using solar panels here but found they were very expensive as were the batteries to store the power. They don't last forever and would need replacing after some years too. Hubby figured it would be cheaper to live on the grid and be more conservative in our energy use. I think the only way going off grid makes sense is if you don't have easy access to the grid and would have to pay lots of money for power lines. In that case, off grid would be viable - but that's just my opinion.
I watched a show some years ago on a family that lived completely off grid. I remember the man saying that he used solar, wind and water for his power. He said the water was the most reliable and stated he would never even consider going off grid unless he had all three to use. He said relying on just one source of off-grid power wasn't realistic for his family.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2012 04:27pm
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I wish the power lines were closer to our cabin. If they were we would be on the grid because it is less expensive than setting up our own system. The biggest power draw are the appliances we use everyday. If you are in the city and wanted to go off grid you would need to use propane appliances. I highly doubt a propane tank big enough to support the appliances is going to be legal.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 16 Nov 2012 08:10pm
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He's also a rich man and can afford to hire the right people to set up a system that will run a entire ranch.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 16 Nov 2012 08:34pm
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Sure, but the OP's question was simply, "Is it possible?". The answer is yes!
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 16 Nov 2012 10:45pm
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So basically (this is the OP, yes i've still failed to get my username and password. call me an internet procrastinator. So many other things to do why bother worrying about this)
If there is enough money involved, smart planning on both design and conservation (down sizing appliances, especially the excess items like tvs and such) then it should be more than possible to still have a "normal" city type life style while being 100 miles from the nearest person.
Weird question
Does anyone know how much power a satellite requires (i mean a dish not the thing in low orbit)
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 16 Nov 2012 11:21pm
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The receiver is the power hog. From what I've read the power use can range from 20 - 40 watts and as high as 80 - 85 with some brands. Sorry I do know which is what. Worse these are bad for off grid as when left in the normal "off" or standby mode they still use large amounts of power; worse than any other electronics with stand by losses apparently. I imagine you would have to disconnect the power cord; use a power strip with on/off, or something. I do not have one so don't know what problems that might cause... slow start, have to find the sat again, or.....???
When I wired our off grid cabin I installed many outlets that are wired with an on/off switch. The on/off switches have a pilot light that illuminates when the switch / outlet is turned on. That makes it simple to turn off many things like the TV, DVD, stereo, microwave, nightlights, computers, battery chargers. It was extra trouble and expense but has the advantage of eliminating a mess of power strips all over the place.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 16 Nov 2012 11:22pm
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The dish itself requires no power at all, however the set top box uses power...how much depends on the box. You can prob look up the specs online for your satellite providers units.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2012 01:22am
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Quoting: Rossman To answer the OP's original question: Of course it's possible! George W's ranch in Texas off grid and I don't imagine he's roughing it, in any way, shape, or form.
Are you sure you dont mean Al Gore's place. 
I know he is the eco green guy while Bush is from Texas, oil state, big oil supporter....
I'd bet Bush's energy consumption a month and natural gas is humongous. (tongue in cheek)
You are correct, GWB is green, his heat is geothermal etc.
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2012 09:33am
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that seems like a lot, when i lived in town my 2 bedroom house only used 6 KWH a day, i guess if you use energy hogging electronics and don't monitor anything, and use electric heat you would get tthat high.
Tide energy is a bit sketchy, if you have neighbors who like the ocean view they will prevent you from using the technology, thats why there aren't huge power projects along the coast, the best areas for it also have expensive houses on shore.
you should be able to generate enough with roof mounted solar panels and batteries, even here on the 45th parralel (canadian boarder) solar is increasingly popular. just don't leave the big screen tv on all day. if you want unlimited power you can't go off grid.
wind can be problematic in cities, buildings create a "heat island effect" and there is a lot of drafts and disruption in wind.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2012 11:26am
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Are you sure you dont mean Al Gore's place.
Yeah, it's quite funny that George W. is "greener" than Al Gore!
An inconvenient truth, indeed.
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Rossman
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2012 03:13pm
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Quoting: TheWildMan that seems like a lot, when i lived in town my 2 bedroom house only used 6 KWH a day, i guess if you use energy hogging electronics and don't monitor anything, and use electric heat you would get tthat high.
Huh. I just checked our power bill (in the city), we use around 30kWh a day somehow. Two story detached brick home, natural gas heat/hot water...Not sure how I am going though so much power I will have to look into this some more...got a kill-a-watt around here somewhere.
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Borrego
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2012 10:31pm
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Is it possible? YES. Given enough money. I have built houses for people that wanted to 'run the meter backwards'. Ok , fine I'll do it, how much $$ ya got? $50k will do it for an average size home <3000 sq ft. So yes it can be done, but don't expect it on the cheap...
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2012 01:08am
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^like^
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countrygirl
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2012 03:24pm
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We have been working on our cabin for 9month to go off grid. At a cost of $30,000 to have pole's and light put in solor is the way we went. It cost us $10,000 we have all the stereo, microwave, nightlights, computers, battery chargers, and yes a Fridge. All works well. We even left the Inverter on all week when we were gone, and the Frige was nice and cold when we got there the next week.
We have Deep Cycle Batteries, run led light. we didn't get a kit, just learning as we go. May be working solar into our house next year!
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2012 04:20pm
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Rossman, another reason may be a minimal charge if you have a municipal power company (although i was metered at only 6 KWH/day, the town owned electric company charged a mandatory minimum for 15, i questioned it and was told that it was equal distribvution among town residents (price control, its cheaper for the big energy users and more expensive for the ones who conserve power), you could also look for phantom wattage (loss due to a number of things) if you have a powerfull computer and leave it on when not in use that could take 3 or 4 KWH a day alone.
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