|
| Author |
Message |
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 04:55pm
Reply
I just signed up today after lurking for quite some time. I am amazed at the knowlege you guys have and I know I'm in the right place to get some help. I purchased a piece of property in Dec 2011 primarily for hunting/recreation. I hope to someday retire there (it's only 1 hour from my primary residence). The property has an old barn from the homesteader days that the previous owners converted into a hunting cabin/shack. No electric and no water other than a spring (dry in bad summers like this year) up the hill from the cabin approx 600 feet (about 50-70 feet drop down to the cabin). The previous owners have a 55 gallon drum lying on its side taking in water and a 3/4" or 1" flex pipe going about 500 feet down to the cabin. Not sure of exact PSI but it flows as good or better than an outside faucet in the city.
I have read solar power threads until I'm blue in the face and nothing against it at all, but i really just mainly need 12v lights and possibly the ability to run some power tools, maybe a TV to catch a game or play a DVD for the kids/guests. I would hope to recharge my 12V bank in the evenings if i was running the generator. Looking at a Honda 2000 or 2000 companion.
Can someone take a look at the attached diagrams (sorry they aren't very professional) and see if i am on the right track with water and power? I was just thinking regular edison type sockets with the chain off/on switch and cfl bulbs to be ran a couple of hours at night and an hour in the morning (not all at once, just the ones needed)
I realize i may be pushing it on the ecotemp L5 hot water as i would have to really keep those runs to the sinks short. It may be too big of a pain to go out and turn it on just to get hot water into the kitchen sink but it would be nice for celaning up dishes.
Thanks in advance for the help and i'll try to post a pic of the current spring set up which i plan on adding a holding tank close to the spring to. Not sure if the gravity flow would work or if i may need a small rv pump to get water to the ecotemp.
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 05:02pm
Reply
Sorry, I forgot a couple of things......would i just need to run romex without the ground to the 12v lights or should i use something smaller like 14/2? Also, the fridge/freezer and the heating stove both run off of LP. I hope to replace the LP heating stove with a wood stove soon and i am not crazy at all about the old, old, old fridge/freezer (looks like it's from the 50's or 60's) running on LP. I've heard they can be dangerous and I have small kids. Hope to upgrade the fridge/freezer with a newer model LP in the near future.
Are the 2 lights per run the way to go with a 12v system so you don't lose to much power?
Thanks again in advance
|
|
wakeslayer
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 06:24pm
Reply
You will have more than enough water pressure. My gravity system is similar in distance, and descent. I have a 1200 gal tank
Personally, I would st the cabin up AC, and get a cheap inverter. Just my opinion. Couple batteries will be fine for a couple lights, and a TV/DVD. You will want to add a panel at some point, but go light for now. Use your money on a new fridge and add to the electrical system later.
I like the EU3000, but I get the 2000 companion setup too.
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 06:35pm
Reply
Thank you an would there be any advantage of a tank down by the cabin? I don't think I will wire AC just because I don't want to put too much money into this cabin. It has 6'4" ceilings an I'm 6'3". It has so many cracks and crevices in the loft, edge of rood, etc, I don't think it could ever be sealed up. It's a mice an possibly snake haven!!! It's pretty darn rough for me to put too much $ into unless it can be reused if I rebuild which is likely in the future.
|
|
Just
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 07:40pm
Reply
feathersnfins
make sure you fuse each 12 volt circuit [fuse's and fuse holders can be had at any auto store for about a buck ] very important , a must , thats not on your drawing. not sure about your water system we use a 12 volt pump..
|
|
MtnDon
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 09:02pm
Reply
How much do 12 VDC CFL's cost compared to 120 VAC CFL'a? Last time I looked, which was a few years back, the 12 VDC ones cost over $15 each. Quite a bit more than 120 VAC ones. I'm not convinced there is a savings going in the 12 VDC direction. For the same wattage light/device the wire in 12 volt systems carries 10 times the current of an equivalent 120 volt device. That means more wires or heavier wires. Copper is not cheap.
Also if you are not aware already, devices like switches, fuses, circuit breakers, that are made for 120 VAC use may not be suitable for DC use. (Most AC such devices are not rated for DC and won't perform properly or may burn out early.
Depending upon the amp-hour capacity of the batteries used that 10 amp charger may be undersized. The normal to aim for is a charger capable of C/8 to C/10 amps, where C = total amp=hour capacity of the batteries. EG: 225 amp-hour (typical golf cart battery) means 225/10 = 22.5 or 335/8 = 28 amps. The 10 amp charger would work but would take at least twice as long and use more gasoline. You should look for a 3 stage charger, not usually found at the car parts store, WalMart or other big box store. Check out Iota Engineering chargers.
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 09:18pm
Reply
12v cfl about $9 each
120v cfl about $1.25 each
I will only need 6 max
I thought that I could use regular 120v sockets with a string switch without problem as long as I used the 12 volt bulb.
If I used a 120volt set up like you suggest, I would need to run the generator justto have lights, right? If not would I need an inverter from the battery bank powering the 120v lights? Wouldn't that run my batteries down much, much quicker?
|
|
MtnDon
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 10:54pm
Reply
AC switches burn our or weld the contacts together when used on DC. Sometimes it takes a while. This occurs because the AC current changes direction 60 times a second and that makes breaking the circuit easier than interrupting the one way current of DC. The DC makes a much larger spark when the circuit is opened and closed with the switch. The metal used in a DC rated switch is thicker given that the switch is capable of handling the same watts. As I said, it could take a while. However you never know if it'll burn out and not work at all or if it will weld itself in a closed position.
Yes you would need a small inverter. Those are cheap.
Yes, the inverter would use more power, but not all that much, especially if you power off the inverter when it is not needed. If you connect a small inverter and leave it run 24/7 you would notice more drain. Really good inverters can sense when needed and remain in standby and very low load when not needed to power up a device.
You can probably tell I am an advocate of running 120 VAC. It's my preference. That makes it easier for others to use the system without needing me to watch over. It makes it easier to grow and find things like a TV to use. Mainly with a good battery and a good inverter, plus PV panels we don't need to run a noisy, smelly generator. That's my choice. Others will vary.
|
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 11:18pm
Reply
Oh boy, I did a quick search and don't see any 12v DC Edison type screw in sockets with a chain pull on/off switch. This is getting more complicated than I predicted. Is there anyone who could draw a diagram of how I would need to do wire the shack for 12v lighting with approximately 6 ccfl bulbs that screw in to 12v sockets, what size and kind of wire to run, fuses and/or safety equipment to ensure I don't start a fire or burn through wire, etc...?
|
|
MtnDon
Member
|
# Posted: 22 Sep 2012 11:26pm
Reply
Oh, regarding the old propane refrigerator. A propane refrigerator of any age can kill people if the burner is not kept clean. There are a couple of bad things that can contribute. One if not having the correct gas orifice for the altitude. The higher the elevation the small the gas hole. Too large a hole supplies too much gas and that produces CO.
Turning the unit right off and leaving it for a period with no flame causes issues. For some reason spiders like the burner box and the chimney. They spin webs and that can create conditions that cause CO production upon relighting. That is what nearly got my friends. That and the batteries in their CO monitor / alarm were dead.
If the installation is not level enough that can cause problems with the operation of the absorption cycle. That can sometimes cause problems with the system and in some cases cause a leak in the piping.
But again, that can all happen with any age unit. Old does not necessarily mean bad. If looking at new units be cautious. Many new units, especially those meant for use in RV's have computer boards and require a constant source of 12 volt power. That can be a surprisingly large demand.
So my opinion on the refrigerator is that if it works well, keep it maintained and keep fresh batteries in the CO monitor just to be safer.
|
|
TomChum
Member
|
# Posted: 23 Sep 2012 01:09am - Edited by: TomChum
Reply
feathersnfins
My water comes from 900 feet away, and drops 17 feet. I have a 5/8" hose and I get 1 gallon per minute of gravity flow. I leave it running continuously into a large 20 gallon galvanized bucket so I always have 20 gallons of fresh water. After that it siphons into a smaller 10 gallon bucket. I throw my dirty dishes in the 2nd bucket, and just from the hours of running water, in the morning they are pretty clean. If I had more flow they would be cleaner. Gravity flow is a good deal!
If you have 50 feet drop you should get 22PSI, if 70 feet, then 30 PSI. The L5 eccotemp heater needs 20psi to operate, so lets hope you are more on the 70feet side. I bet it will work. Gravity flow is ideal, a 12v pump is one more system to worry about, and use your battery. And get frozen, or stolen.
I am running my cabin on 12v. I have four lights, all LED, and it is BRIGHT. LEDs use about half of CFLs for the same light, so that may be an option. When I'm sitting at my table, or reading, I use 3watts (one light). If I burn all 4 lights (almost never need to) I use 18Watts.
Going to 120v will use your battery quicker, there is just more waste. But if you need the 120v then you need it. If you run your lights on 12v then most of the time the inverter is OFF, or sleeping. If you need to keep the inverter running for any time you need even ONE light, there will be waste.
Sears has a 40A battery charger for a pretty good price. As Don says you need about 28 amps. A 25A is probably OK, but I'd go for more to charge faster. Plus if you run a car battery down at your shack it has a 'Start" feature too. FWIW my Honda EU2000i is able to supply my inverter's integral battery charger to put 57 amps into the batteries, while just purring on 'eco mode'.
Regarding your lightswitches, if just a couple 12vDC CFL bulbs per switch, I think a normal 15A switch will be fine. Wall switches cost less than a buck and are fairly easy to replace if they ever fail. The switch won't burn up. A 12vDC CFL bulb draws about 1 amp. I bet a 15A switch would far outlast the hunting shack even with 2 CFLs (2A). Same for string switches, which might only switch a single bulb (1 Amp). To get an idea how little 1 amp at 12v is, take a look at the tiny wire in a 1A fuse. If you can't see it look at a 2A fuse and then assume half that size.
|
|
rayyy
Member
|
# Posted: 23 Sep 2012 07:09am
Reply
Howdy f&f.I think your electric set up will work fine.It's just like mine.A 12 volt, 13 watt cfl bulb will be fine on a 15 amp switch.It's not like that small of a current flow will give you problems.I ran all my 12 volt lighting in 12 guage armered cabel.I bought a roll of color red electric tape and taped off all the white wires and left the black wire alone.Cut off the green wire.So for 12 volt,all you got is a black and red wire(just like in your car).All my 120 volt stuff is in 12 guage romex.Fusing is a must.Get your self one of those marine grade mulitipal fuse blocks with a bunch of 1 amp fuses in it.Also you can put in any standard light fixture for those 12 volt bulbs.I have 7 antique looking light fixtures through out my cabin.Those 13 watt cfl(12 volt)bulbs give off 60 watts of light just like the 120 volt bulbs do.As far as the water set up goes,your so lucky to have that spring.If you water lines are already in,you can try the ecotemp L5.If it doesn't work you can add on the 12 volt pump.I have mine back feeding my 2 sinks and it works great for nice hot water.
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 23 Sep 2012 09:11am
Reply
Thank you gentlemen.
|
|
TomChum
Member
|
# Posted: 23 Sep 2012 11:22am - Edited by: TomChum
Reply
I like the look of your hunting shack! I hope you can find way to fix it up that makes sense. Once it's gone it's gone, and then the banks only lend money to make a "house" and americana just lost another "cabin". You can tell I like classical stuff. Your place has a lot of charm. Hopefully it's still around next spring, and you can post a springtime pic.
Maybe just weatherproof the roof, then cover the inside walls inside with boards, making sure to seal up all the corners. Your spring would look cool with a wooden whisky barrel for the catchment. Sorry if I'm treading on thin ice here, not many people understand.....
Was looking at your water diagram regarding your gravity flow. One test you may need to perform is if you are running hot water thru the eccotemp, when you then turn on the cold water, the pressure will drop in the hot-water leg, and if it is below the L5's threshold then the flame shuts off. For that case you need either a bigger pipe from the springbox to feed the hot/cold split. Or you need to put a 12v pump after the split to feed the L5.
Regarding your electrical diagram I'd fuse each of your three 12v outputs (to the lights). You will be using about 2A each leg so you can put a 5A fuse (or 10A) in each one and it's plenty safe. You can get these fuse holders at the autoparts store (blade type). Put the fuse as close to the battery as possible.
One thing about the CFLs, they don't like to start up and shut down, and it really shows in the cold. Rayyy do your CFLs start slow? If they do, then they won't last a fraction of their hours. And with a battery system, you will be inclined to shut them off OFTEN to save battery power, which is a lot of start cycles. CFLs are best used where they turn on in the evening and stay on all the way until you go to bed.
LEDs don't have this problem, they start instantly, and last practically forever. Here is a simple LED project, you can get going with it pretty easy. I highly recommend the 3 watt. http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/3_985_0.html#msg10877 which has a link to where I got the lights. the brightest light I have is the AR-111 flood light (5.8w). It's so bright I hardy ever need it.
One thing you can consider is to use some of these "Little Dot" LEDs that use only 1/5 watt. For example for lighting your woodpile or outside the door. Then you don't have to turn on the CFL. http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/3_985_0.html#msg26365
With LEDs, watch for 2 things:
1) the "color" should be 2900K or "warm white". If you go for the 'brightest' you will get a blue-white color like the little LED flashlights they sell at the checkout stand. I started with those and it was a waste of money. You are out in a cabin and it looks like a hospital. Warm white only loses a little intensity, but the light color is same as a normal lightbulb.
2) always get "flood" lights. Home Depot, for example only has "Spot" LEDs. I bought some and they are not useful in a small cabin. They are for high ceilings, and have to be recessed otherwise are annoying, bright. You need FLOOD lights, "120 degree".
There may be some screw in lightbulbs you can get too but they've been pretty expensive and all I've seen is 120v.
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 23 Sep 2012 12:44pm
Reply
Tom,
Thank you for all of the help and the link...the LED set up looks like my best bet since the lights will only be ran for 30 or so minutes in the morning. I'm hoping to get everything i need ordered up and try to install in the next couple of weeks. I do have a few questions if you don't mind helping me out.
1. You mention running speaker wire for the LED lights. Is this straight from the fuse block off the batteries?
2. I've seen a lot of posts that mention running very large wire for 12V DC circuits to the sockets...this seems to be very different than what you mention by running speaker wire (unless it's 12 guage speaker wire, i guess that would be in line?)
3. Can i use an automotive or marine type fuse block coming off of the batteries and run my circuits out of that? If so, can I run a 20-25 foot length on my longest circuit and still be ok?
4. Can i run 2 led lights off of one circuit or does each need a separate run?
5. I'm assuming it would be ok to ceiling mount the side mount socket you show in your link? I don't really have the ability to use the ceiling mounted one since the ceilings and walls are already covered in some type of insulation board (see pic)..
6. In your LED lantern thread it appears there is just 1 wire running to the lanterns...is that because it's speaker wire and it splits where i can't see it?
7. Please note the 12v light bulbs in the pics are from the previous owners....they seem to have them directly wired into a 120v outlet at the wall. I think they put some alligator clips on a 12 v battery from a lamp cord, then plug the cord into the outlet on the wall to power the lights....I'm not too comfortable with that plus the bulb you see by the fridge is right in my forehead zone and i already busted it out once when i was working with the gentlemen to buy the property!!! It's right in the middle of the room....they were all under 5'10" and I'm 6'3" so it's in about the worst place it can be along with my safety concerns!!! Also note the coleman propane lighting in the cabin....It worked for them for a long time but i'm not a fan of having 3 or 4 20lb propane cylinders inside with me!!!
Thanks again for all of the help....
|
|
creeky
Member
|
# Posted: 23 Sep 2012 09:50pm
Reply
that looks like a really nice cabin setup.
i'm using leds in my cabin. I echo Tomchum in saying get warm white bulbs. I have both blue/cold and yellow/warm. I ended up taking all the blues and putting them in hallway/outside situations (which is great cause they have no problem with the cold). anywhere I hang out or read it's the warm white.
12v lighting fixtures and switches can be found at discount hardware/auto places. The wiring is typically very thin as the amperage is so small. a 5 watt led at 12 volts that's only .4 amps. I'm not sure, but you could probably run that amperage through a human hair. kidding. and with 12 gauge you should be able to run 10 fixtures 40 feet.
as your system grows to encompass tv, microwave etc, you'll need 120 ac... that's an inverter. might as well get a controller and some solar panels. took me a year to get tired of the genny running.
tomchum, what inverter/charger are you using?
|
|
TomChum
Member
|
# Posted: 23 Sep 2012 11:50pm - Edited by: TomChum
Reply
Quoting: creeky tomchum, what inverter/charger are you using?
Hi Creeky, I am using a Magna Sine MMS 1012. It's 1000W continuous, and it uses 16watts when sleeping. For comparison, ALL of my lights ON, is 18watts. I bought it from WholesaleSolar.com. It is a factory refurb, and came with a small remote screen that tells a little about what it's doing. I'm pretty sure WholesaleSolar has more of these refurbs for about $800. I wish I had the deluxe remote, which is $180....
Quoting: feathersnfins 1. You mention running speaker wire for the LED lights. Is this straight from the fuse block off the batteries?
I suppose you would come out of the fuse block, thru a 5A fuse, and then on to the lights. I'm running "lamp cord", I think it's 20ga, or 22? My wiring is all "temporary, I got it all working then went on to other project. I will get back to my wiring some day.
Quoting: feathersnfins 2. I've seen a lot of posts that mention running very large wire for 12V DC circuits to the sockets...this seems to be very different than what you mention by running speaker wire (unless it's 12 guage speaker wire, i guess that would be in line?)
If you are running a 100 watt lightbulb at 120v, that's .83 amps. If you were to run a 100watt lightbulb on 12 volts, it would need 8.3 amps, consequently you would need a large wire. The difference here is devices that use a tiny fraction of the power. A 3w lightbulb needs 1/4 amp, a small wire is all you need. You will need a BIG wire to your inverter. The wires from my (12v) solar panels are 130 feet long, and they are (each) bigger than my pinky finger.
Quoting: feathersnfins 3. Can i use an automotive or marine type fuse block coming off of the batteries and run my circuits out of that? If so, can I run a 20-25 foot length on my longest circuit and still be ok?
Yes. With 20ga lamp cord, I have a 3w LED at 20 feet, and on the same circuit, downline, a 6W LED 20 feet downline (total 40 feet) If I turn on the first light (3w), then pay attention to the intensity when I turn on the second light (6w) there is no change in the 3W light, no flicker. So I can say from my own testing that you can run 9 watts on 20 feet of 20ga.
Quoting: feathersnfins 4. Can i run 2 led lights off of one circuit or does each need a separate run?
As above, no problem! You could probably run all 6 lights and more. It's handy to have 2 light circuits, if one fuse blows then you still have lights.
Quoting: feathersnfins 5. I'm assuming it would be ok to ceiling mount the side mount socket you show in your link? I don't really have the ability to use the ceiling mounted one since the ceilings and walls are already covered in some type of insulation board (see pic).
You might want to drill a hole and recess the bulb. You could get a holesaw maybe slightly smaller than the bulb and press it into the foam. Or silicone it recessed a half inch or so up into the hole. These bulbs last so long you don't really need to worry about changing them - you can glue them in where you need them, and they would be "overhead" too  You can even crimp your wires directly to the MR16 pins with a butt-splice connector. You don't really even need the little 'sockets'. Those sockets are for 100 watt halogen bulbs, to handle the heat. There is no heat to concern yourself with in the LED bulb.
Quoting: feathersnfins 6. In your LED lantern thread it appears there is just 1 wire running to the lanterns...is that because it's speaker wire and it splits where i can't see it?
It is a black casing over two tiny conductors. I bought "cable extensions" and cut them so my light has the male end and then I have a socket to plug it into. There are two wires, a red and a black inside the black casing. The conductors are microscopic. They are so small you can't use crimps. I just twisted them together and used hot glue gun to make an insulating blob over all my connections.
Quoting: feathersnfins 7. Please note the 12v light bulbs in the pics are from the previous owners....they seem to have them directly wired into a 120v outlet at the wall. I think they put some alligator clips on a 12 v battery from a lamp cord, then plug the cord into the outlet on the wall to power the lights....I'm not too comfortable with that plus the bulb you see by the fridge is right in my forehead zone and i already busted it out once when i was working with the gentlemen to buy the property!!! It's right in the middle of the room....they were all under 5'10" and I'm 6'3" so it's in about the worst place it can be along with my safety concerns!!! Also note the coleman propane lighting in the cabin....It worked for them for a long time but i'm not a fan of having 3 or 4 20lb propane cylinders inside with me!!!
You don't want to bust your head on a CFL, that dust in a fluorescent light is toxic, and real bad to get in a cut.
Ifyou buy from SuperBrightLEDs, get a few of these "Little Dot" lights, they are $1.99 and VERY HANDY for porch lighting, woodpile etc. They only use 1/5w.
 
3W. One over my kitchen table, and another in a reading area. SuperbrightLEDs_MR16-WW48 SMD
| 
6W has 1/4" spade connectors. I don't usually need this much light. SuperbrightLEDs_AR111-WW3 6SMDD
| 
I used some of these cable extensions so mu lights would have a nice 'plug' on the end.
|  |
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 24 Sep 2012 12:26am
Reply
Thank you so much!!!! I'm ordering everything up tonight and hope to have something in place within 2 weeks!
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 24 Sep 2012 12:59am
Reply
Last question!!!! How do I install the rocker switch? It has 3 prongs. I would have thought I would just wire the positive speaker wire into the positive prong and the negative into the negative prong but I guess that isn't correct?
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 24 Sep 2012 01:47am
Reply
Disregard the question about wiring the rocker switch....i believe i found a simple diagram....
rocker switch wiring diagram
| | | |
|
|
TomChum
Member
|
# Posted: 24 Sep 2012 02:03am
Reply
Normally a switch just 'breaks" the circuit. There are several different configurations of switches that have 3 prongs, don't assume they are ALL wired like this lighted a switch. Use your tester and make sure the switch is doing what you want it to do, before you put power to it.
The reason that switch has 3 prongs is because its has a little light on it. To run this light it needs a ground.
"LIGHTED" Rocker switch wiring diagram. Must be grounded for the light to work.
| | | |
|
|
TomChum
Member
|
# Posted: 24 Sep 2012 02:05am - Edited by: TomChum
Reply
Normally a switch just 'breaks" the circuit, and needs only 2 prongs. A 2-prong switch does not have "+ or -" --- it can be installed either way. And both of the prongs are usually in the "+" leg.
There are several different configurations of switches that have 3 prongs, don't assume they ALL 3-prong switches are wired like this lighted switch. Use your tester and make sure the switch is doing what you want it to do, before you put power to it.
The reason this switch has 3 prongs is because its has a little light on it. To run this light it needs a ground.
I changed the diagram a little, to make it easier to understand.
"LIGHTED" Rocker switch wiring diagram. Must be grounded for the light to work.
| | | |
|
|
feathersnfins
Member
|
# Posted: 24 Sep 2012 08:41am
Reply
So a 2 prong switch would be much simpler to use and could just be ran inline on the + side prior to the light elmininating the need for additional wiring? I think i can live without the blue led light!
|
|
|
