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MDP2004
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2008 09:27pm
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I am sure this "bright idea" has already been tried or maybe not?
Why can't we just develop a generator that will run by itself using electric running and running for as long as you need power? Electric motor running the generator and generator feeding the electric to electric motor and to the house??
Or did I confuse anyone?
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Vince P
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2008 10:04pm
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I don't think that's quite possible with current technology.
A generator cannot produce enough power to run itself and feed electricity to outside sources due to the inherent percentage of power loss associated with any power generation system.
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MDP2004
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2008 08:20am
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That's where electric motor come in? You have electric motor with shaft and pulley on it and run the belt to generator's pulley so it will run the generator and generator feeds power to deep-cycle battery. In turn, the battery feed power to electric motor.
It is known that 1HP of electric motor equals to 5HP of gas motor so a small 1HP motor system could generate as much as 1,000 watts for a lot less than 5HP gas motor. Just need to find a 1HP motor that has low continuing volt with good running power so it doesn't draw too much power from deep cycle battery while giving enough power to generator to run.
Just a thought.. The only question I am asking myself is what generator to use? The one that work for windmill? Or is there a generator that has a shaft you can attach pulley to it and find something to run it.
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swanugly
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2008 09:28pm
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hmm? perpetual motion ?
http://www.targetmargin.org/SEASON%20WEB%20IMAGES/contraption.jpg
sorry i got lost in your explantion, then my little brain started to wander
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alpan
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# Posted: 20 Dec 2008 11:55pm
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What you want is an "overunity" device. They are said to be possible but not patentable as they are struck down as "perpetual motion machines" when applying for a patent.
There are alternate energy devices but I doubt if you'll ever see one in production.
See: www.cheniere.org
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jo_yo
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2009 10:06pm
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its just a shot in the dark but im say if u got a generator like a old bolk bug or something like tha that wold run a low rpm then got a small motor even a 1/2 or 3/4 that was 12v and used like a 3 or 4 battery setup it might be possible but id say ud have to run it when u slept or anyother energy use would cut it down to much or maybe even have a multi gen setup ..... just get some solar panels lol
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MDP2004
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 03:25pm
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Quoting: jo_yo its just a shot in the dark but im say if u got a generator like a old bolk bug or something like tha that wold run a low rpm then got a small motor even a 1/2 or 3/4 that was 12v and used like a 3 or 4 battery setup it might be possible but id say ud have to run it when u slept or anyother energy use would cut it down to much or maybe even have a multi gen setup ..... just get some solar panels lol
Exactly my thought but actually I am working on other project right now.. a towable backhoe and then a portable sawmill. I will get right to this project after the first two..
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islandguy
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 09:04pm
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Such a system is simply not possible. Energy cannot be created, so you cannot have any system producing more energy than it uses.
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MDP2004
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2009 10:33pm
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Quoting: islandguy Such a system is simply not possible. Energy cannot be created, so you cannot have any system producing more energy than it uses.
Want to enlight that? If you put together an electric motor, generator, alternator (from car), volt regulator, solar panels, 4-6 deep cycles battery, and a DC panel... I think it can be possible.. just need to find electric motor that require a low contuining volt to feed the generator so it could feed energy to batteries, and at same time the electric motor (with belt driven system) could feed power to alternator feeding the energy to batteries.
The alternator should give the contuining energy to offset the contuining volt that electric motor requires while keeping the batteries full of energy. I recall a professor said that old alternator from 50's to early 80's could feed thousand volt that it could be enough to power up a home so that's why all vehicles have volt regulator in the engine.
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islandguy
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2009 03:29pm
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I do not have a lot of knowlege on electricity, nor do I claim any expertise on the subject you have brought up, but voltage is only electric potential, not current itself, and regulators were to prevent overcharging the battery. Physical laws dictate that you simply cannot produce energy in any way that exceeds the energy required to produce it. Friction alone will prevent you from achieving your goal. You did mention solar panels, and that does introduce another energy source into the equation, but you could put that current directly to the batteries and be further ahead.
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MDP2004
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2009 04:54pm
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Islandguy,
I understand what you were saying and I have read the same thing other day. As said earlier in this thread, it most likely probably have been tried and failed but I am going to do more research on this.
The idea was that you need one fully charged battery so it could start the engine and feed enough electric to keep engine going. Most electrical system has volt regulator because once battery has reached its potential maxiumum storage level, volt regulator stop feeding energy to battery and resume the feeding when energy is drained. This method is pretty common in all automotive and if alternator die down then energy get drained out of battery. If there is no regulator then battery would explode from excessive feeding.
Really, the biggest question here is... How much power does it require for electric motor to continue running and how many batteries along with the set-up of alternator and generator using belt-driven pulley system will it take to keep this going. The reason for solar panel is so that electric motor could cool off by being shut down during the daytime when sun is up.
If the electric motor requires pretty good power to get it going and the system doesn't have enough to supply then it will not work. I think we need to find right size of electric motor that can still turn the shaft at high speed to keep generator and alternator going. That's what I need to research on.
And again, I did say this may have already been tried but remember, some physics law are mean to be broken. Eventually somebody will break it.
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islandguy
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2009 05:34pm
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It's just as important to learn and discover why something won't work as it is to find out why it does. You can learn a bunch about physics by experimentation even if your theory is proven wrong. I admire your persistance and determination. Good luck.
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MDP2004
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2009 08:47pm
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Yea, experimenting is fun! don't we all love doing it.. ;) And even if it doesn't work, I will post the follow up here. Thanks!
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jo_yo
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2009 10:50pm
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youll need to figure out proper pully/gear sizes.. same concept as a bicycle big pulley on one side small on the other that gets u turning fast with lil effort .. i believe it can be done and will work.. wether or not its worth the time and money well thats up for u to decide ... im just useing a 18hp riding mower and a cpl alt .. she'll even be drivable good luck man .... and as for the portable backhoe and saw mill check out harbor frieght tools they sell them both cheap
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jamez
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# Posted: 21 Mar 2009 09:39pm
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Hi what you are talking about is possible and similar things have been done. For example take a look at John Bedini technology, or look up Peter Lindeman's website to get an overview on overunity energy systems and their suppression. The technology exists but you will have to figure out how to do it yourself because it's been blocked from being researched and put into production. It's much easier to just conserve your energy usage and get a small solar system and build some windmills.
Energy isn't being created it's being captured and transformed into something useful. If you don't believe in perpetual motion explain how the earth continues to spin or why waterfalls exist.
http://www.free-energy.ws/
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/
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jbseay
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# Posted: 1 Apr 2009 05:33pm
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If you don't believe in perpetual motion explain how the earth continues to spin or why waterfalls exist.
Um, Gravity? Rivers run from point A (higher) to point B (lower) sometimes going down steep gradients with swift current and waterfalls, sometimes barely flowing in almost flat sections.
MDP2004, good luck on your system, I think you will find without another external source of power, your batteries will drain out and cease supplying the electric motor. A 1 hp electric motor equals a 1hp gas motor. The horsepower rating is power supplied at the output shaft. Doesn't matter what spins it.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 24 Apr 2009 11:27am
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Gravity only explains how the water falls down but how does it get back up? Why doesn't the earth stop spinning? I'm asking these questions rhetorically just for making you think about it.
I've been experimenting with a Bedini SSG for a while now it's a battery charging device and it can be made to run itself. The inventor John Bedini has made a lot of unconventional energy devices like this and offers some instruction and guidance to help reproduce his devices, although on a very small scale just to demonstrate that it really works. There have been some others with successful replications of his energy machines, which run themselves or produce more energy than they require to run. Basically a self powered generator. It requires some experimentation and learning though. You don't just slap it together and have a free energy machine instantly. There are a lot of details which need to be learned to get the most out of it.
Here's a link to a yahoo group which teaches how to build a small battery charging device like I was describing above.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bedini_Monopole3/
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islandguy
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# Posted: 24 Apr 2009 05:26pm
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How does it get back up? Solar power. Energy from the sun heats water, turns it to vapour, and causes it to rise, condense back to liquid, fall back as rain. Or snow, which is then stored at higher elevations, turned back into liquid with solar energy. No energy from the sun, no waterfalls.
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MDP2004
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# Posted: 27 Jun 2009 12:35pm
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jbseay, you are incorrect about the electric motor HP rating vs gas motor HP rating. Electric motor is 2 times stronger than gas motor and can produce more HP than gas motor. 1HP gas motor = 2HP electric motor. I wish I remember where I found the source to post it on here but I think that maybe Northern Tools or Harbor Freights website can share that?
We are going to start on the project after 4th of July. We will experiment with two different electric motors and two different generator with one new deep-cycle battery to start with. My friend who is an electrician will help do some calculation using "PIE" formula and try to figure out the amp output. To tell you the truth, we really haven't put a plan down just yet. We already have one motor in hand with few other items in mind right now and will draw up couple of plans we feel will work best before we start to spend money. Fortunate, we already have plenty of scrap wires thats less than 2-3 ft to use for the experiment.
Will post follow up and we have thought about start our own blog site so we can post info and keep track of log so we can find out what we have or haven't done.
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blackchisel97
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# Posted: 28 Aug 2009 03:20pm
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Hi, I'm glad that you mentioned John Bedini. Despite common controversy: energy doesn't need to be created, just tapped (harnessed). For those stating Laws of Thermodynamics: they're just theories and apply only to specific isolated, closed systems - you cannot get more energy from system than you put in. How would we explain a sailboat moving 16knots with our input of 12Watts, according to Laws of physics? Impossible? Not at all. This is an open system and energy is also coming from the environment. The same applies to zero point energy.
Best Regards
V
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betty
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# Posted: 18 Sep 2009 03:35pm
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Great site-thank you! Check it out-Google CEO Schmidt says punching down into the earth to capture natural and clean geothermal energy could help move the United States away from it's dependence on petroleum.
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Dolan the Hunter
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# Posted: 25 Oct 2009 05:56pm
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This may be a junior high science project or something, but I believe it *COULD* work. Use a small electric motor (from an RC car or other such devices), and use a set of gears with a decent ratio (5:1, or so) along with a small generator.
The Generator powers the motor, which has the smaller gear attached to it, a chain connects the small gear to the large gear, which is connected to the generator. such a small ratio should counteract any energy loss from the motor spinning the generator. possibly even creating additional energy!
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Orionday
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2009 01:47am
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This system is a lot easier to build than anyone has mentioned, the ideas are close; let me guide you to the answer. First off there is no such thing as a perfect machine, physics won't allow for it so you will need an alternate source of energy, a solar pannel will suffice in this case.
1. You will need three six inch pullys, and two two inch pullys with rods to mount them, bearings for the rods and three belts.(assuming this is being built in a box of some kind.) you will need a small solar pannel and equally small motor, maybe 12v hobby motor or less. And an alternator and deep cycle battery. (regulators, switches, etc.)
2. Connect the hobby motor to one six inch pully, this will be your main drive pully. By belt it will turn one of the two inch pullys mounted on a shaft along with another six inch pully. The six inch will in turn drive another two inch pully ( good design would mount that behind the six inch or adjacent to the main.) that two inch will drive the remaining six inch pully which will in turn drive the two inch (common size) pully on your automotive alternator.
Now if you're still with me,when the first six inch rotates once around, It will drive the first two inch (and consequently the second six inch pully) three times around. That will drive the next two/six inch nine times around which will ultimately have your alternator spinning 27 times for every one turn of the main. Most cars experience a good charge around 2000 rpms, but you have a large 6-8" crank pully turning that so to get 5,000 rpms from your alternator, the hobby motor will only need to turn about three times every second, which is no tall order. If you were to add another two and six inch pully to the equation it would only need to turn the main ONCE every second. With good bearings at the ends of the shafts, and if your driveshafts were properly and Evenly installed (square) the friction and drag coefficient would be extremely light, allowing that small 12v hobby motor and little radioshack solar pannel to give you 5,000 rpms on an alternator worth of charge!!!!
Hopefully that satisfies your curious minds. Happy building!!
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NoFreeLunch
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2009 07:52pm
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Quoting: Orionday Hopefully that satisfies your curious minds. Happy building!!
And to what purpose is building any of this... mess?
You'd be better off simply connecting your little solar panel to a charge controller, which charges your deep cycle battery. No motors, no pulleys, and no alternator.
Everything you've built beyond the simply panel/charge controller/battery will simply incur additional losses to the output of the solar panel through friction and heat. If it's a 5W panel, and you have miraculous light conditions so it actually produces 5W, with this system you'd be lucky to see 3W out of it afterwards. More likely you'd see nothing, as all of that measly 5W would be consumed by losses...
There may be little friction in the system of pulleys, and to spin the alternator at no load... But when the alternator is in a charge condition, the field inside it will produce enough drag on the armature that it will instantly stop the system, especially if you're using a small motor that is geared up to drive the alternator. This would cause you to instantly have zero output. If you sized the motor large enough to actually keep everything spinning, as I said before, you'd probably see 3W at best.
If it's too good to be true... It probably is.
Try it if you don't believe me.
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Kithera
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# Posted: 22 Dec 2009 03:50pm
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I gotta agree. Even if you directly connected a motor to a generator, both had completely frictionless berrings and you only used superconductor wirings so the same charge can continiously move along the closed loop, the principle of induction would stop the charge almost instantly.
Gearing up requires a related increase in torque to the input, which takes just as much energy to create.
Finally, automotive alternators are a bad idea for any small scale power generation project as they use electromagnets for the source of the magnetic flux, requiring a constant 50 watts or more of input electricity, which is a massive fraction in the larger systems, and much more than the total constant output for the smaller ones.
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jo_yo
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2010 09:07pm
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i say the best way for free energy is just run a extention cord over to your neibors house when hes at work lol.... the more i think about this the more i wonder why do it i truely believe it will work but WHY waste the time and money.. solar or even wind power would be much cheaper and a tone easier to mess with. i mean you can order some pretty cheap panels on ebay and maybe even a windmill on there if u look hard enough good luck onit if u go thru with the experiment im gonna take he easy way out and just use my generator to charge my battery set up yea yea i know ill be burnin all that gas yadda yadda yadda atleast ill have light
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 12 May 2010 04:40am
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The extension cord going to the neighbors house is probably the best suggestions.
1st Law of Thermodynamics... Energy can be transformed, but not created or destroyed. If you can defy the 1st law, please contact me! I will probably be able to give you millions of dollars afterwards....
You can convert energy from one form to the other. Chemical, mechanical, electrical, ect.... When you do this, there are ALWAYS losses such as friction, heat, ect. When your car engine is on, it is not perfectly efficient... it vibrates and gives off heat.... what is this??? ENERGY.
Look up Carnot Efficiency.... You will see why we can not realistically achieve 100% eff. You will not even be able to get to carnot efficiency due to friction, ect...
Most things have already been thought of. You will not create a perpetual motion machine, or anything greater than it.
There are plenty of ways of getting electricity.... just figure out which is cheaper and possibly most ethical.
Good luck... and remember... please find me and let me know if you are able to violate any basic laws of thermodynamics....
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 4 Aug 2010 01:42am
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With exception of the pulley/cog ideas most of the ideas are questions on how to convert energy out of magnetic force and be able to use it in a productive way. No different to chemical or nuclear energy, as opposed to getting something from nothing, which everyone philosopher to physicists knows is impossible.
There are several ideas which may sound like getting something from nothing (breaking the law of conservation or cause and effect) but they're just harnessing lesser studied energy forms or phenomena.
Some interesting ideas I've heard recently are Tesla's capture of the static difference between the atmosphere and ground or John Bedini's back-EMF capturing motor.
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Commonsense
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# Posted: 15 Aug 2010 03:01pm
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Dropped by this forum looking for ideas for a small back woods cabin andn found this thread.
MDP2004, sorry and I have not wish to offend, but you simply don't have a clue. Please save yourself alot of time and hassle and listen to Nofreelunch and islandguy.
This is basic physics 101...
And a HP is a HP not matter what generates it; please trust us on this!
By all means look for novel ways of extracting/harnessing energy from the environment, but what you propose is simply not possible and will not work.
As already mentioned, in your system, the motor and alternator are actually using energy generated by the solar panel that would be better used if simply stored direct in the battery.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 20 Aug 2010 05:47pm
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It'll cost all of about $70 bucks.
A generator,
a motor,
wires,
the two pulleys,
the belt,
bammm, you're done.
Its obvious the big pulley on the motor, (with a circumference ten times the circumference of the generators pulley) when belted to the generators pulley, will cause the generator pulley to rotate ten times for every rotation of the motor pulley, and therefore, output ten times as much energy as needed by the motor.
All you have to do then regulate the energy going back into the motor, not used for other loads, so the motor doesn't destroy itself.
Now go at it kids, and have fun.
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