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bhebby
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2011 01:41pm
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I am looking to light up a 12x20 cabin. I have kicked around the idea of propane lights but I am not convinced I want to mess aroung with them. I would rather use deep cycle rechargable marine batteries and rig up a LED lighting system. Can anyone provide a plan for building this including a material list of what I will need? Any help would be helpful thanks
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2011 03:20pm
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IMO, the big issue with propane lights is the heat produced. In summer it is hot enough.
As far as what and how much you need to do electric lights it depends on how much power you need. Myself, and this is just my opinion, I have yet to see LED lights that are bright enough for my 65 yr old eyes to read by and priced affordably. But I agree LED's would be the most efficient use of the electrical power.
I'd recommend finding lights that will work for you first. Once you know the amount of power they draw then you can size the battery capacity and PV modules if you are going in that direction.
What you need will also vary if you want to run an inverter at all. Make a complete and honest evaluation of what electrical needs and wants you have. Our power use (100% solar) has increased by something like 50 to 100% since we first started out a few years ago. Because I initially built a bigger system than really needed at first we have not had any issues with increased use.
Just my opinion.
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bhebby
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2011 03:32pm
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Thanks MTN DON- Just looking for enough light to toss some cards at a table and read a book. I would like to run a few deep cycles and inverter and possibly a solar trickle charger to keep em fresh. I have to figure out how to couple them all together.
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smitty
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2011 10:13pm
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I have been planning for LCD lights.
Very low drain on the battery, high initial investment, but should pay off in the long run. How many do you need in a cabin anyhow? Maybe 3? Main room, bathroom and kitchen?
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Just
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2011 10:56pm
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I have a small camp in the bush that only gets used 1 or 2 days a week . usualy card night on wed ,for my hunting buddies. It has 3 12 volt led lights that work fine for geting around after dark but not for reading or cards , for that we have 2 23watt 110 volt C F L's one inside one out .. only run 1 at a time for any length of time . may get used for 6 hours a night in the winter . never run out unless the bsttery is not fully charged . all so have a small shop vac a mic oven and small power tools tools and a small fan to move the heat around ... to produce the power i have a 15 watt solar panel a 7 amp charge controler 1, 12 volt deep cycle battery and a 1000 watt inverter . if i were to use it more days a week i would need ether more battery's or a larger panel . in 6 hours a 23 watt cfl will burn 23x6 =138 watts a 15 watt panel will produce about 90 watts a day 6 hr. of sun x 15 watts = 90 watts of power. as you can see if i used it more i would need more power hope this helps a bit . good luck
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larryh
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2011 01:16pm - Edited by: larryh
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I use the CFL 12 volt versions of the new light bulbs. They make an infinitely nicer light than the leds to my eye. The smaller versions run on about 12 watts which is a big saving over standard 12 v bulbs.
You could keep a couple decent kerosene lamps for times when power is limited or runs out, they are portable and can be moved where the propane can not. But they do not make the kind of light that propane puts out. The round wick Rayo type lamp puts out the most light for a wick lamp with no mantle but take some adjusting of the wick to get a nice even flame and still they tend to need some watching till they are throughly warmed up or then can creep and smoke if left unattended too soon.
Larry
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Kithera
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2011 03:08pm
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I personally suggest the following:
* Get some warm white LED Christmas strings, available at darn near everywhere now. Line the edge of your ceiling with them.
* Using a conventional lamp, use CFL bulbs for any individual task lighting in which the christmas strings don't get enough light for. Use sparingly.
* If needed, use cheap polarized only extension cords to connect them. Like these URL
* Power the above with a cheap Modified Sinewave inverter connected to a 12V Group 27 deep cycle.
* charge as you will.
I can't comment about your charging, but the rest of this should all be less than $150, can power itself for about a week with reasonable use without the battery being reduced to much, and can be picked up at any walmart.
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Kithera
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2011 03:19pm
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Quoting: larryh You could keep a couple decent kerosene lamps for times when power is limited or runs out, they are portable and can be moved where the propane can not.
I agree with the idea, but would instead suggest keeping a both candles and matches and a good AA sized LED Maglite with some spare batteries.
In general I'm pretty clumsy, and any fire based system makes me nervous.
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Rob_O
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# Posted: 24 Aug 2011 10:05pm
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I'm building a cabin about your size. Trying to get it on the grid, but if that becomes prohibitively expensive I will be building a small solar system.
Right now I'm charging batteries at home and taking them to the property when I camp. Running a 13W CFL bulb 4-5 hours a night and my satellite radio on computer speakers about 8 hours uses around 10 amp hours.
As Don said, once you have a little power you will want more. I expect that my power usage will go up when I have a real cabin so I'm planning for 200AH of battery, and 75 watts of panel to charge them. Not enough to run the AC but plenty for the lights and radio for several days.
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bugs
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 10:01am
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bhebby
led's are likely the way to go if you can afford the initial outlay of $$$. They are safer than cfl's and our experience is they are more reliable.
And, yes, you will be wanting more electrical stuff I suspect.
We started out with head lamps.
Then coal oil lanterns.
Then when we got the solar in, we had 3 led lights and the netbook/phone charging.
Then came lighting the path to the out house so we didn't step on a striped pussy cat in the middle of the night.
Then a light in the cook shelter.
Then an electric kettle.
Then a microwave.
Thankfully we oversized the our solar setup.lol
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TomChum
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 01:24pm - Edited by: TomChum
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Here's a link to build your own direct 12v LED lights. I'll second that it's important that they are "warm white" LEDs, which are pleasant, like incandescent light. I started with the other style which give off a white-bluish light, and those have been kicked out of the cabin. They are not pleasant to read by, and they make your food look like plastic. I will put them in the shed. I have 4 lights, 2@3w each, and 2@ 6w. The 6W are spotlights from Home Depot, and even Mtn Don could read with these!
18W of LEDs is plenty for my little cabin (12x16!).
http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/3_985_0.html#msg10865
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larryh
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 02:46pm
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I guess I haven't noticed that LED's come in warm light. I hate the blue white lamps.
For the system I have which is strictly back up to the line power at the moment I have a main 12 v line that goes the length of the house. Then off that #6 copper line I have standard wires soldered and extending down the walls to either standard house sockets or a few cigarette type plug ins for use with things that have only the option of using that for power plugs. I use the standard wall sockets for lamps using CFL bulbs or other 12 volt lighting. If I wish to run a fan or tv that uses the cigarette type male plug I have some converted "y" adapters that retain the two female cigarette receptacles while adding a standard 110 type plug in on the male end.
As to the danger of oil lamps, I have often had that discussion with my mom as to the inherent dangers of using oil which I cook on and light with some times now days and for heating often. Generally we hear of fires in homes and most of the time the cause is some sort of electrical fire due to faulty wiring or overloaded circuits, yes oil can be a danger but common sense is the rule to be followed with any thing.
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exsailor
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 02:48pm
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Hi All,
Here is a link that discusses LED lighting and its applications. http://community.loghomebuilders.org/showthread.php?8430-The-wonders-of-modern-lighti ng there is a lot of knowledgable people on this forum discussing alternate power and its applications.
Hope thios helps.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 04:10pm - Edited by: TomChum
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Quoting: larryh Generally we hear of fires in homes and most of the time the cause is some sort of electrical fire due to faulty wiring or overloaded circuits....
That's because 99.9% of the homes are powered by electricity, very very few are homes lighted by firelight, so few they would not make the statistics. And the few remaining haven't burned "yet". So many grand old lodges were lost to fire. Imagine a lodge with 50 guests who normally use electricity, now have a FIRE in their room. Cool! But somebody is bound to make a mistake. And they did, an honest little mistake. They are learning fire safety just like you did, except their mistake got bigger and now the lodge is gone.
Anyway, a glass vessel of kerosene, with a fire ontop of it, perhaps unattended, in a flammable structure, is simply dangerous. I like kerosene lamps, but I started to think about (maybe) lending my cabin to a family member. It gets more serious when you are trusting somebody else to make good fire-safety decisions.
It occurred to me that I'd better hide the lamps away and get some LEDs working.
Incidentally, if you were to use 12v, LED lighting, and power it all thru a (5A?) fuse, it would be impossible to burn a home with that tiny amount of electricity!
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larryh
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 05:48pm
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Personally I am discussing the use of electrical power in general, not the battery power I use which is fused. Sure there are possibilities of problems with any power wether it be from power lines or out of a can. I have used kerosene both frequently and infrequently for lighting for 50 years now. So far no issues with flammability. Not to say it doesn't exist because surely it does. Wood heaters are dangerous as well as is any wood appliance if not properly respected in set up and operation. I know that some homes were lost to fire, from what ever reasons. But when one looks at many historic city neighborhoods or country homes, the vast majority still remain even though until the 50s where I am electric didn't exist. I suppose that if someone is not comfortable with running such items that they not do it. I also would be rather nervous with a house full of people using lamps with no regard for how to handle them. Kerosene is a somewhat forgiving fuel in that generally you can toss a match in it on a flat surface that is solid and it won't burn. But if it is spilled onto a rug type material then you have the conditions that may flare up quickly due to the wicking action of the material. I agree that solar panels and new lights are the best way to go.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 06:40pm
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All understood....
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 06:43pm
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Regular (AC) CFLs are pretty darned efficient for overhead lighting (we use them in our wall tent off our battery & inverter). I haven't found any LED bulb that works well for ambient lighting (overheads) but they do work wonderfully for task/spot lighting. However LEDs and CFLs are not great to read by or do fine tasks like needlepoint or model building, or any task that requires correct color... stick with high efficiency incandescent or halogen lamps for these tasks. Note that CFLs do not work well in the cold, so don't count on them for outdoor lights in the winter.
DC lighting is pretty pointless these days if you're already wired for AC through an inverter. The newer inverters have negligible transmission/conversion loss, and are way cheaper to run (even if you need another panel or battery) than the extra cost of heavier gauge DC wiring and hard to find/expensive DC appliances/fixtures. We only have a couple of wired DC LEDs in the battery storage room as safety lights because they will continue to work off the dregs in the battery bank long after they've discharged too far for the inverter to work. All the rest are AC.
If you really want DC LED lighting, I would suggest the cheapest and easiest method are self-contained battery-operated lights that typically run for several months on a couple of rechargeable C/AA/AAA batteries. You can find these in many styles... from string lights to touch light "dots" or pucks to faux candles to faux lanterns to wireless overhead motion lights to wall sconces to task lamps. We currently use the puck lights for the closet/bathroom, and the string lights on our pantry shelves... easy-smeasy, no wiring required!
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TomChum
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 07:07pm - Edited by: TomChum
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Good points,. If your cabin's already wired for 110vAC then use the 110vAC. I have not yet seen a good LED 'area light', but its possible. Note that modern LEDs have very similar light to Halogen (which is an incandescent), at a small fraction of the power draw.
Quoting: PlicketyCat than the extra cost of heavier gauge DC wiring and hard to find/expensive DC appliances/fixtures....
Old-school DC lighting required heavy-guage wires to run the same wattage as a 110vAC light. Modern DC LED lighting wires can be very very small. like 1/10th the size. These small wires should be fuse protected.
Quoting: PlicketyCat If you really want DC LED lighting, I would suggest the cheapest and easiest method are self-contained battery-operated lights that typically run for several months on a couple of rechargeable C/AA/AAA batteries.
It may be the cheapest and easiest, but it's not pleasant lighting. These type of battery-operated lights are often the bluish-white (called 6000k) light that makes food look like plastic. They're great for a quick glance into a closet or dark shelf, but if you want to live around your lights........, such as EAT, do needlepoint, appreciate a color........I'll repeat this important detail again. You need to look for "3000K" or otherwise called "warm white" LEDs. And rest assured that if any of these battery-powered lights use 3000K or "warm white" bulbs they will trumpet this important feature. Otherwise they use the 6000K bluish-white.
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larryh
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 07:54pm
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The biggest down fall to DC is the poor quality of appliances and other items made to operate on it. If you could have decent table fans and appliances that used it it would be fine if a person didn't need a lot of power. The trouble with the computer age is that nearly everything now requires power. I often fantasize that I could manage again without power which I did for nearly 15 years here, except some very rare uses. But with the computer, DVD's, Window fan, Coffee Pots, Stereo's, things have just snowballed to the point where doing without many of them seems out of the question at this point. Plus since I retired I have gone mostly to CFL's due to the cost of operation and better lighting for old eyes. But its still fun to contemplate.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2011 08:16pm
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High voltage DC (110 vs 12/24) does use lower gauge wiring, but then you have to step it up off the battery bank. If you're purchasing a converter, you might as well purchase an inverter and go with AC and all the cheap and easy to find AC appliances and fixtures.
I'm with you... CFL and LED light is pretty gross, and it's very hard to find the right warmth to make a natural and appealing colored light. Some brands do better, but I've found that even the "warm white" lights aren't really the right color temp, just faked with coatings. "White" LEDs aren't really white, they're a combo of RGB to facsimile white. CFL flickers, and LED wavers... neither are the best for reading or tasks for longer periods unless you want a headache or bug-eyes.
Crafts/detailed tasks, leisure reading and dining warrant the use of halogen/incandescent in my house despite the higher draw because they aren't used for long periods ;) We only use CFL & LED for low wattage ambient and general task lighting, respectively, since those lights are normally on for longer periods (especially in winter when we only have daylight for 1-2 hours).
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toofewweekends
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2011 01:49am
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Add a vote to Just's view of lighting. Wire for 110 and you have a wide pick of bulbs, and getting better. Ours is 16x20 but rarely are more than 2-3 lights on at once. 2 golf cart batteries, a 350w inverter and we run all cfl bulbs. Thinking of adding a 12v fixture or two, which would let me turn off the inverter for longer periods and still have a reading light in bed (vs a flashlight/lantern). We run a bigger panel -- 95w -- partly to allow for a bit of an upgrade next time around, partly because I'm trying to suck all the energy out the Alaska fall and spring as possible. Mid-winter, we're charging batteries with the generator (which we also fire up to run a few appliances year round.
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