|
| Author |
Message |
jb802
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Dec 2024 08:23am
Reply
Cabin: Off grid, northern Vermont: We would like to use water for washing, shower in winter. Is it possible to use a rudimentary system that used PVC tubes, buried deep enough into the ground, to funnel warm air into an insulated crawl space/room in or under the cabin to keep a water tank from freezing in winter? We can pump water from a dug well into the tank to get it there initially. However, without a solution to keep that tank in the cabin or crawl space from freezing, we won't transfer water from the dug well to cabin tank. There is no plumbing from dug well (connecting that well to the cabin is another post). Any ideas?
|
|
Brettny
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Dec 2024 10:45am
Reply
Why not just plumb the well directly to the cabin and drain when not there?
|
|
ICC
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Dec 2024 02:08pm
Reply
Quoting: jb802 ...PVC tubes, buried deep enough into the ground, to funnel warm air into an insulated...
How deep is the frost depth? I would think you would have to go deeper than that to ensure having any or enough earth heat to make it work.
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Dec 2024 03:26pm
Reply
1st thing that comes to my mind is that the ground water is already warmer than your idea would make it.
|
|
DaveBell
Moderator
|
# Posted: 11 Dec 2024 04:32pm - Edited by: DaveBell
Reply
Using earth heat to warm the space would take energy. Its not passive air movement, has to be active. I was in a house one time that used earth temp for cooling but you had to turn on a fan in the tube to circulate air through buried tubes. It did cool the house but it did not remove the humidity so it was not comfortable.
If you bury a ribbed water tank below your frost level, and use a 12V pump and hoses to fill it from the well, that would work. I have seen those red arm pumps that were used on farms work well to get the water up, mounted at the kitchen sink, you have to prime it first to get a good suction going. They still make them new. Has a valve to drain it back down so it doesn't freeze.
Shower. I used a gallon milk jug, drilled six small holes in the cap, fill it half way with cold water and the remaining half with boiling water. Get wet, lather up, rinse, clean boy. One gallon of warm water worked well. My wife said but I have to wash my hair. Make two milk jugs.
Remember, a Navy seaman on ship is given only 20 seconds to do all that. (I joined the Army)
Wash. There is a clothes washing bucket with a plunger that works well.
These can be seen at Lehman's.
51GuYeaGlcL._AC_SX67.jpg
| 
482A52_AS01.jpg
|  | |
|
|
jb802
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Dec 2024 06:27pm
Reply
That is the next step. Right now the lines stop outside the house, we have to plumb it inside. The water is below the frost line, so it would already be warm (as another poster mentioned here). There would be some exposure (maybe 12 inches) between the buried water line and plumbing in the cabin. Insulate that section? Install a hydrant that is frost free in the cabin?
|
|
jb802
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Dec 2024 06:34pm
Reply
@Quoting: ICC How deep is the frost depth? I would think you would have to go deeper than that to ensure having any or enough earth heat to make it work.
Quoting: gcrank1 1st thing that comes to my mind is that the ground water is already warmer than your idea would make it.
Quoting: DaveBell If you bury a ribbed water tank below your frost level, and use a 12V pump and hoses to fill it from the well, that would work. I have seen those red arm pumps that were used on farms work well to get the water up, mounted at the kitchen sink, you have to prime it first to get a good suction going. They still make them new. Has a valve to drain it back down so it doesn't freeze.
Thank you for the replies, very helpful. I'll try and get some photos for the next post.
Stay warm...
|
|
travellerw
Member
|
# Posted: 11 Dec 2024 07:37pm
Reply
Why not put some heating strips on the tank, then insulate it. Run the heating strips on a solar system? I would think that may be easier that underground piping and pumping.
Both systems would be reliant on electricity to ensure nothing froze.
|
|
|
Brettny
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Dec 2024 09:56am
Reply
Quoting: jb802 There would be some exposure (maybe 12 inches) between the buried water line and plumbing in the cabin. Insulate that section? Install a hydrant that is frost free in the cabin
A small section that's exposed could be insulated and put heat tape on it. If leaving it should be drained though. You can use a curb stop valve to have a valve below frost line or you can use a frost free yard hydrant.
I have a drywell line that I recently buried. We have a cabin in central NY with no skirting and no plan to skirt, we have 4in foam in the floor. My drywell uses 1.5in pvc with heat tape around that 4in pvc around it all. I then used caned spray foam to fill up the void between the 1.5in and 4in pvc. The heat tape is just Incase it ever freezes.
You can see it here with orange foam coming out of it. It also shows the layout of my Insulated floor with no skirting. 4in of foam is way warmer than the ground in winter, it's also dryer and dosnt hold mold.
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Dec 2024 11:49am
Reply
If you don't have a check valve at the tank and the run all downhill from your plumbing there wouldn't be any standing water from tank on. Im thinking that the ground water temp (52ish *f?) would keep it from freezing while in use??? then run back to tank when off. But you would have to wait for the pump to get the water to the tap; still maybe better than hauling water and navy shower.
|
|
jb802
Member
|
# Posted: 16 Dec 2024 06:21pm
Reply
Have thought about this. It's a matter of learning how to do this. Also thought about a heating element for livestock to go in the tank. In both scenarios, will solar, in the winter in Northern Vermont be able to generate the current needed to keep the water from freezing?
|
|
jb802
Member
|
# Posted: 16 Dec 2024 06:30pm
Reply
Yes, I think we are good from water source. We have a cistern, well tiles, that are about 5 - 6 deep so the water does not freeze. Like you said, that water in the pipe running downhill from the cistern is 52ish and the pipe Is below the frostline. Goal is to def not haul water or navy shower.
|
|
jb802
Member
|
# Posted: 16 Dec 2024 06:41pm
Reply
Quoting: Brettny A small section that's exposed could be insulated and put heat tape on it. If leaving it should be drained though. You can use a curb stop valve to have a valve below frost line or you can use a frost free yard hydrant.
The hydrant has the water spigot by the handle, above the ground, how do you continue the water line from the spigot into the cabin? Insulate that part too?
In your photo it looks like you've insulated the plumbing right from your buried water line up into the cabin.
In that scenario, the water comes down from the well, gravity feed, into cabin (maybe with a pump if pressure is not enough) and the last distance the water travels up from the ground to the cabin via insulated pipe with heat tape run by solar. That makes sense, I like that.
Thank you everyone for your input. Very helpful!
|
|
|
