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frankpaige
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 11:41am
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The cabin is 12x16 with a loft. Colorado location.
I currently have an Empire propane heater, 10,000 btu’s. Last trip the daytime temps averaged about 40/45. Nighttime was about 15/20. Enjoyed the heck out of sunny days, no wind and relatively mild temps.
But, trying to warm the cabin is a struggle for that heater. Hours spent trying to reach 60.
Space wise, I ready would prefer to stick with propane. No firebox. It’s a tight space.
Question is? Do I look for the Empire 35,000 btu? Would be sufficient? Is there a comparable brand that I should include in my search? The place is insulated except the floor.
At 76 yrs, I want to enjoy the place and only want to do this once.
Searched the forum and could not locate any thread with a discussion like this.
Thoughts?
Thanks
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paulz
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 12:29pm - Edited by: paulz
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Frank, what a great looking cabin and photo! I’m a wood burner but it won’t be long before gcrank and other LP guys chime in. Just wanted to give you a bump.
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frankpaige
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 01:03pm
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I initially went out to photo the last full moon. They are never as good as the real thing. Turned around and said, Dang!
Only one 60 watt bulb inside. Thinking the motion sensor light is still on, on the deck.
Cannot wait until longer sunny days are back.
TY
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 01:21pm
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Frank, we had to give up on wood so in Dec 2020 I bought a 30k btu infrared (the tiles, not the blue flame) LP wall furnace. It is unvented so A Window MUST be cracked (we have sliders so I open both sides of the 30" tall window 1/2", that gives me the 30sq in that is considered good; 1si per 1000btu's).
Our shack was 16x24ish with Cath ceiling, 30k Btu's warmed that up in about an hour from dead cold 40ish to 72.
Fast toward to just recently with our new (May 1) prebuilt 12x28' log cabin with cath ceiling. Pretty much the same temp rise. From 32 it takes longer but not horrible. Then just yesterday we went to try it at 19....just to trial it out. Well, a dead cold cabin has everything dead cold so even if you get the air temp up all the slowly warming stuff is sucking the heat up to get saturated. After 2hrs we were up to 64 and climbing so Im thinking at 3 hrs we would have been in the 70s pretty well.
Fact is for us that below 30ish it really isn't much fun to bust our way in and mostly have to stay inside so we agreed that we will call 30 our limit still.
To the Btu's thing, iirc the calc online for sq ft or volume both say a 20k should be fine. Yeah, IF you are maintaining a heat, NOT Bringing it up from dead cold.
So, for your size cabin my guess is 35k should be pretty good BUT you will need to kick all that risen warm air down out of the loft and get all that interior air well mixed. For us that is done by running a 30" ceiling fan on Low with blades pushing air up. It then gets cycled back down along the walls and works out pretty well. Im running that 120vac fan off an lfp battery and 300w pure sine wave inverter.
And YES, Great looking cabin!
Btw, the fuel use is mathematical with LP, there are 90,000btus in a gal so our 30k uses a gal in 3 hours. We have a 120ish gal tank I lucked into but that is like 400+ # to move full. 100# tanks will have about 20gal, 20# about 4 depending on if you do the exchange or get yours refilled.
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ICC
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 02:14pm - Edited by: ICC
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I believe you are at a fairly high altitude, but I could be remembering incorrectly. If you are keep in mind that every 1000 feet above sea level results in about a 4% loss in BTU output because of the lowered air density. That's for a propane heater that does NOT have a fan-induced draft. (Fan induced combustion loses 2 to 3%). That is a big loss if you are at 9000 feet. And the gas orifice should be changed to smaller, otherwise, fuel is not burning completely and will cause a soot buildup inside the combustion chamber or right at the burner.
Frank, is the plan to replace the 10K heater or to add a second heater? If you have sufficient wall space maybe think about adding a heater?
I like having multiple heaters as it is nice to have the boost when arriving to a frozen cabin.
These heaters use a steel or even a cast iron combustion chamber. Bigger and heavier combustion chambers will have more heat stored in it at the point the thermostat shuts the burner off. That could cause overshooting the projected maximum. Could. Not for certain. I had that occur years ago when we replaced a furnace in an RV with a larger one. Some thermostats have an adjustment to make allowances for that.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 02:34pm
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Btw, Im in Wisconsin so don't have to contend with all that high elevation stuff; that'll throw my recommendations off.....
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frankpaige
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 03:08pm
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I asked for thoughts And they are a coming. Thanks.
Let’s see.
ICC, Elevation about 9300-9500. My first thought was to replace.Especially if I do a direct vent. Now if? I do ventless? I do have wall space to place one. I am too timid to sleep with the DV furnace on. Even with a monitor and no past issues. Do understand that there is a loss in efficiency at that altitude. I never hooked up the thermostat, because it would never heat up to where that was needed.
Gcrank1, Something to really consider about ventless. 40 degrees is my cutoff. I can sit inside at home during the day. My “want” is to get the temps up, so that at dusk, it is pleasant inside. Crank it up till bedtime. Off, then on in the morning. Going to try the loft fan next trip to see what occurs.
Nothing happens instantly. Trial and error for sure. Did look at some infrared reviews. Did like that route. Knew that if I increased the heater size, consumption was going up. So far can drive up to the cabin. Not so much come January.
Thanks!
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 03:52pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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If you have never had your Co alarm trigger it means your burn is good, and with DV it is drawing in combustion oxygen and exhausting the 'smoke' outside. No reason to be concerned about that like you should be about a ventless.
How about considering adding in a floor standing ventless (my wall unit has feet available) to use with your existing unit to get up to temp then idle along on your Empire?
Oops....I keep forgetting you are waayyy up there. Iirc Ive read that they wont work above about 4k feet, the metering for the gas jet and the Oxygen Depletion Sensor (ODS) will be way off and likely shut down if it starts at all. The market for those isn't big for high elevations so I doubt they make a 'high altitude kit'.
And NEVER bypass the ODS on anything!
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 05:25pm
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I know that many others use ventless heaters. I simply cannot use one. I cannot happily breathe the exhaust. In theory the exhaust from a propane flame contains just water vapor, CO2 and heat. But higher elevations can throw theory off.
That's me and my thoughts. YMMV. 
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2024 06:38pm
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I would insulate the floor first. After that if it's still not warming up try a 10kbtu buddy heater or even one of those cheap tank top heaters. If a secondary propane heater works then you know how many more BTU you need.
Central NY here last winter we had no floor insulation. The furthest corner from the wood stove would hardly get warm even with fans blowing. This year with 4in foam in the floor its night and day. I prob burn 1/4-1/2 the wood.
Even if you cant insulate your self pay someone to. Your going to be paying it in propane or a heater anyway..at least you will have a warm floor.
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frankpaige
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2024 09:04am
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Thanks All. Great information and suggestions.
In the past, I generally discarded ventless heaters right off the bat. Thinking it was too dangerous. Seems like with precautions they can be something to consider.
While doing that mulling. I know I need to work on finding a larger propane tank. Right now have only 40 lb ones. Need to work on air circulation as well. Getting warm air down. One year I tried sealing the lower half off with plastic. That! Was unique.
Thanks again. Will keep you in the loop as we progress.
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cabinfun3
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# Posted: 2 Dec 2024 10:18pm
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I agree with brettny as far as insulating the floor. Have a 9x16 with small loft and a 11000 btu direct vent and with only walls and ceiling insulated it always seemed like an ice box. Put 2 inches of pink board stuff on the floor and now can walk with bare feet. Last week during hunting season kept temp 68ish for 5 days and one 40lb lp tank. 5 was the lowest night and 30 was the highest daytime temp. Does take a while to get up to temp. Have thought about bigger heater. But have stayed in it other times with temps down to -10 with no issue so for now i am happy.
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