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gcrank1
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2024 02:05am
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LP infrared wall furnace installed and fired up 
Nights and mornings have been cool so I got a head start on it before cool turned to cold. And today was 84*f, LOL.
30K BTU for 320ish sf and two small ceiling fans (30" sweep?) to kick the risen heat and mix it throughout.
With the new very tight and sealed pre-built log cabin we should be cozy.
May seem small to many but for the two of us 'recreationally' it is really a nice space (12x28), way better than some efficiency places Ive been in.
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paulz
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2024 02:29am
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Quoting: gcrank1 LP infrared wall furnace
Tell me about that. So it makes electrical waves or something? Heats up the objects, not the air? Then the heated stuff heats the air? No fan?
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2024 02:50am
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No fan but one can be installed.
Since warm air rises I set the fan blades upward to kick that warm air down the walls and around the room, works well for us.
Infrared is said to be like a wood stove and the sun, those rays warm objects which then become 'heat sinks' (I guess) and radiate heat into the room.
In contrast the 'blue flame' heaters warm the air, which is not that efficient for carrying heat.
I admit to feeling warm with either one.....
The infrared has 'tiles' that glow a nice orange when hot, kinda like looking at a fire but no flames wicking.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2024 03:16am
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Vented or vent-free?
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2024 12:36pm
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Ok, Buddy heater type thing, only wall mount. Didn't know they were 'infrared'. And yes, vented?
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2024 07:15pm
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Ventless
But we have 2 CO alarms, one a std hardware store type and a super sensitive model (I did a thread on it last year?). Im waiting to compare them if either/both go off (well, not really waiting....) but the specs on the portable Forensics Detector mdl-FD-J001 are Very Good.
Yes, Ive read all I ever find regarding do it, don't do it and take precautions.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2024 07:00pm
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We got to cabin yesterday, temp inside was 43*f with a fair cool breeze blowing outside.
Heater fired right up, I let it stabilize at low (6k btu), then med (18k) before high (30k); only takes a couple minutes.
I set the old wind up cooking timer for 1hr to see how much temp rise Id get on the wall t-meter about 5' up in the kitchen corner (heater is close to centered on one 28' sidewall). I also turned on one ceiling fan, upward, on low to distribute the air throughout the open floorpan.
After 1hr it read 72*! Comfy!
Set it back to low and for the rest of the day it held at 72.
Fwiw, the main 5 'tiles' are the infrared burners but the unit also throughs off a good bit of convection heat. Unlike a 'blue flame' that just warms the air the IF warms objects, including me, that will then radiate heat into the space. The IR also warms the moisture typically thrown off by LP. This humidifies the space which means we haven't had to run a 'humidifier pot' like we used to on a wood stove.
This will be the 3rd year with this heater, the 1st in the new, tight, energy efficient pre-built log cabin. So far this is looking way better than in the old shack
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2024 07:32pm
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2024 02:54am
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A little buddy heater almost killed me. Not from CO but it burns all the oxygen in the space. My woodstove will have an external air intake.
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ICC
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2024 03:25am
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Quoting: DaveBell it burns all the oxygen in the space. My woodstove will have an external air intake
Mine do.
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darz5150
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2024 03:31am
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Quoting: DaveBell A little buddy heater almost killed me.
Wow. Sorry to hear that. Can you give more details? How big of area were you using it?
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2024 12:54pm
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In our area I am aware of a people who had close calls in tents on hunts over many years. Propane heaters as well as well as sheet metal wood stoves. And every few years a death.
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Nobadays
Member
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2024 02:06pm
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Quoting: DaveBell My woodstove will have an external air intake.
We added an external air intake last year, all the difference in the world! No more sucking air in around doors and windows or through poorly sealed logs. I'm of the mind now that no matter how tight your place is, a wood stove will find cracks to suck air in. We had chased and sealed drafts around doors and windows and even siliconed some log joints.. but our logs were not sealed that well so air would find a way in. We can feel the difference after adding the outside air intake!
Unvented propane, I could see how this could deplete oxygen without you knowing it in a tight home... no chimney to exhaust out of so likely much less "sucking" oxygen in.
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paulz
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2024 03:37pm
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Great, another thing to deal with.. years of using my old stove no problems, maybe I have enough outside air leaking in.
There is no hose fitting on my old Arrow. Looks like though, a hole can be cut in the floor and outside air comes in through the pedestal. The kit they mention, AK90, I think is this. There is already a fan in the stove, blows inside air around the chamber between the walls.
So to do it or just leave it be like it has been..
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 27 Oct 2024 06:57pm
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Mine has an ODS, Oxygen Depletion Sensor, that cuts off the pilot, which then lets the thermocouple cool which shuts off the gas valve.
And we have a high quality CO detector.
Our normal operating is to have a 'burn' going in the day while our goings and comings are letting air in and shut it off at night. If I sleep with 'an arm out' from the covers when it gets cold it's time to get up and run the stove as well as relieve the personal pressure.
I used to do the same when we ran the antique, low efficiency wood stove, but if it was all burned down to coals it took a while to get a good fire going again. This one will start pumping out 30k Btu's pretty quick.
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paulz
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2024 12:22am
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I see they have wall mount ODS for about 200 bucks. Wood look good next to the smoke and CO alarms. Easier than boring a hole in the floor under the stove pedestal.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2024 02:48pm
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Most of these ODS I have sean on cheaper heaters are just the pilot light. Meaning the O2 has to get so bad the thing cant stay lit.
I used a buddy heater in my cabin before insulation and it made the place stink real bad. No way would I use a ventless heater in any building.
The wood stove at my house has an outside air kit on it. It made a huge difference in the house warmth and how much wood I burn.
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paulz
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2024 03:37pm
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Did a quick search on “fireplace outside air” and this popped up first thing. No background with these people, haven’t read the entire article. I know you guys better..
https://www.woodheat.org/the-outdoor-air-myth-exposed.html
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2024 04:02pm
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Interesting
If I read it right the biggest cause of oxygen depletion is 'up the stack' with a stove that needs a stack, not from the 02 needed for combustion.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2024 06:04pm - Edited by: paulz
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I tried to read that whole article but too many air pressure, temperature and height difference explanations for my weak brain.
Here’s a photo of the first house I ever owned, 800 roaming square feet. It had no fireplace, I put in this old stove (ignore the Vincent I was building, still have that). It’s only a mile away from my current tract home, and the insert is in the original brick fireplace here.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2024 07:08pm
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OHHH, A VINCENT 
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2024 11:49pm
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Quoting: gcrank1 nteresting If I read it right the biggest cause of oxygen depletion is 'up the stack' with a stove that needs a stack, not from the 02 needed for combustion
No the benefit of a outside air kit is your wood stove dosnt pull cold air into your house for combustion. It's got nothing to do with oxygen depletion like a heater thats burning fuel in the living space.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2024 12:28am
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6th paragraph up from bottom gave me that thought, Brett.
"Wood burners consume combustion air in response to the chimney draft produced by the heat of their own flue gases."
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2024 01:44am
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I first ran into that article something like 20 -25 years ago. At that time I had already proved to myself that an exterior air supply was beneficial to the use of a couple wood stoves and fireplaces in the old adobe homestead. Many family members thought I was crazy, but we had reduced draftiness after making up inlet vent piping that delivered air right to the stove inlets. The fireplaces were a problem until Dad and Grandad decided it would be worthwhile to get wood burner inserts fitted and we fitted them with inlet vents too.
I do agree with the article's position on passive venting... venting that just delivers outside air to the room. To me, those seemed to be just holes in the wall, with no better benefit than opening a window. That always seemed to be a crutch, not a solution.
One of the issues I had back then and still have with that article is that it mentions research but never indicates what research, who did it. No references to it. If there is any scientific basis for their hypothesis, notes or a bibliography should be supplied.
FWIW, when I built the present cabin the direct vent to the wood stove air inlet made a world of difference in starting a fire. The same thing occurred with the wood stove in the new house including the workshop stove. The air inlet for the shop eliminated some cold drafts that were difficult to weatherstrip on one of the overhead doors. Several air inlet vents we installed or suggested to others have resulted in easier starts, no need to crack open a window or door.
Direct vent gas heaters have outside fresh air intakes as well as exhausting the products of combustion outside. Very similar and they work. RV furnaces too. Not to mention some of the modern home furnaces and water heaters.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2024 03:04am - Edited by: paulz
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Thanks Izzy. I’ll start mapping out how to drill a hole in my floor for pedestal access as posted in the image above.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2024 11:46am
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Paul that stove has air intake knobs on the door. You cant make a proper sealed air intake. That's part of the problem with older stoves. Theres just no real good way to make your own outside air intake and they sure as heck dont sell one for it.
They sell on for my VC defiant but I built my own. Piece of flat plate, tube and a section of dryer vent.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2024 12:36pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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The article comments on positive vs negative pressures to be the real determining factor (?). Im pretty sure the hvac folks have ways to measure it but the rest of us get to cut holes and give a go.....
Then how do we quantify our trials? Subjective 'results' when they are subtle can be like the guy who puts straight pipes on his Sportster and says it is 'more powerful and faster' (until it gets run on a dyno).
I used to crack a window in the old Cabin1 with my inefficient refurbed antique wood stove when night or we were pretty much cabin-bound. Of a 'normal' day with our in & outs there seemed to be enough air exchange. Again, subjective; and to err on the side of 'safety'. I thought about hole-drilling beneath the stove to make a short path for 'the burn air' but it came down to don't 'fix' (or needless work) what aint broke. Btw, if I had I was thinking of making an 'air box' beneath the floor that housed an inexpensive automotive air filter to stop insects, vermin and not just be a cold hole.
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paulz
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2024 01:36pm - Edited by: paulz
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Quoting: Brettny Paul that stove has air intake knobs on the door. You cant make a proper sealed air intake. That's part of the problem with older stoves. Theres just no real good way to make your own outside air intake and they sure as heck dont sell one for it
Thanks Brett. Yes there is a sliding air intake cover. Here is the one on my other old Arrow stove (I read they were made in Oregon, why many seem to be floating around here) in my house master bedroom, where I happen to be at the moment (slid open for photo). Didn’t occur to me, since I just keep both slid shut, just have the door cracked open until the fire gets going, then shut the door and the wood smolders all night. guess I could figure out a way to run a tube off that plate outside..or just go through the pedestal.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2024 01:55pm
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Are you sure the draft channel(s) from the knobs aren't filled with ash?
Ime, the best draft would be from beneath the fire rather than through the door.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2024 02:15pm - Edited by: paulz
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I’ll look. There is a hinged door behind that plate, you can see the knob at right in the photo. and when swung open the box that holds the ash that drops through the holes in the fire box slides out to empty. Not sure what goes on besides that, too hot to check right now.
One other thing, semi related, the other side of the house has the original brick in wall fireplace. Sits on the concrete slab floor. No way to add fresh air to that, right (never use it anyway). Also has gas stove and heater, never seen feeds to them. What if you lived in a basement, fresh air has to enter from below the fire box?
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