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Atlincabin
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# Posted: 19 Jul 2024 03:13am
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Good time of year to think about freezing weather....
Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has any real-world experience with water freezing in polyethylene barrels. My question is whether a barrel left half-full over the winter to freeze (and assuming it freezes solid) will split or crack or otherwise end up unusable. I know from experience that plastic water bottles, and those blue 5-gallon or 7-gallon square water jugs can handle freezing without splitting, but can one of the barrels do similarly?
The reason I'm wondering is whether I can leave some water in the cabin over winter (when it will definitely freeze) and be able to come back in spring and have water in the barrel (once it thaws) rather than a mess.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 19 Jul 2024 09:51am
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I wouldnt keep water inside like that. Not only do you need to worry about a flood in spring but that tank will get condensation on it. Condensation causes mold.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 19 Jul 2024 01:34pm
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Ive used a commercial 'pickle barrel' since the mid-late '80s here in sc Wis. A couple times it froze up when about 1/4 full when I was late to dump.
As we all know, water expands and if there is no way for it to expand into it can burst pipes, faucets, rocks, etc. But Ive also seen it bulge containers. Id hate to have a side split on a water barrel inside!
Maybe you could pump that water into an outside tank for the winter so it can be available come spring?
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travellerw
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# Posted: 19 Jul 2024 04:03pm
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Its interesting you brought this up as I've been doing some reading on freezing water.
Since the costs of my sewage system are so high, I was hoping I could do some sort of surface storage tank that I would just let freeze in the winter. Still using it over winter and just adding more "stuff" on top.
This led me down the path of talking with multiple tank manufactures to see if that would actually work. One of them was quite knowledgeable about the physics of freezing water as their tanks are used in the oilfield up north. Here is the breakdown of the knowledge he passed me.
1. Water freezes from all sides (outwards in).
2. The volume of water matters. More water = more expansion forces (why small plastic hoses like PEX can survive freezing sometimes)
3. Expansion can be directed with a container that is rigid enough. Think of an ice cube tray, its very rigid and tapered to push the expansion upwards and out of the tray.
4. Its a myth that as long as there is room above the water, it will expand in that direction. If it can, water will always expand EVERY direction.
5.Shape of the container matters. Long and narrow (like a barrel) are much more likely to crack than flat and rectangular.
6. Type of plastic matters. Some plastics are much more brittle below freezing than others.
TLDR: No plastic container is built to withstand freezing with large amounts of water, especially multiple times. The amount of water in the container has a direct impact on whether the container will survive or crack.
So, based on that knowledge, I wouldn't trust a barrel to survive freezing even if its 1/2 full.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 20 Jul 2024 12:18pm
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I wouldn’t trust it but laying on its side will likely be fine as opposed to standing up.
I lost a few 5 gal water bottles at my camp first year. Now I 3/4 fill them and lay them down just enough to not fill the neck.
Haven’t lost one in the last 8 years as the rounded sides allow for water to expand up
But even these are in a shed. I wouldn’t do it inside
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Atlincabin
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# Posted: 21 Jul 2024 08:34pm
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Thanks for the replies. I've been leaving partially-filled bottles in my shower for the past several years and none have split or leaked. This has allowed me to partially fill the cabin tank when we first arrive in late spring (it takes a day or so to get the normal water system set up to get water from our spring), so I was just wondering about leaving the barrel partly full. Sounds like the safest thing to do is stay with what has worked.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 21 Jul 2024 10:26pm
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I do the same thing; I leave 3/4:full one gallon HDPE jugs in the shower. No p-trap in the shower drain. I use one of those waterless traps (I forget the name). I also have a buried cistern, deep enough not to freeze but the jugs are for short trips and make it possible to have some water without having to re-winterize the inside plumbing. I leave a pot on the stove with enough water to make it possible to thaw a frozen jug once the wood stove gets going
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 22 Jul 2024 10:11am
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I do leave water at our cabin over the winter but I do it in a shed. For the last 4 yrs I have left these military water jugs all winter. They freeze solid and havnt had one leak. How ever they have stained the pressure treated plywood floor from condensation.
Smaller jugs in a shower is a good idea too.
When/if I ever put in a frost proof system I'm going to put a well in or burry about a 500gal tank.
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