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ICC
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2023 05:24pm - Edited by: ICC
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Batteryhookup has a good deal on these... $95
https://batteryhookup.com/products/calb-ca180-3-2v-180ah-lifepo4-prismatic-cell-90-10 0
-izzy
They have BMS and other stuff too
I got 100 x 18650, 2600 mAh li-ion cells for a project. $68 with shipping
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travellerw
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2023 08:03pm - Edited by: travellerw
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Sigh.. sometimes I hate being Canadian!
P.S. $85.. not $95
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ICC
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2023 08:19pm - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: travellerw $85.. not $95
 The price dropped $10 between last night and today, as a friend paid $95 each for 8 yesterday.
-izzy
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travellerw
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2023 09:09pm
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Quoting: ICC The price dropped $10 between last night and today, as a friend paid $95 each for 8 yesterday.
Its a skookum deal...
But damn, with shipping, import and conversion its craziness here.
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ICC
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2023 10:46pm - Edited by: ICC
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Yeah the US-CDN dollar exchange kills a lot of deals when importing UD to Canada. Plus your GST or whatever it is called. OTOH, the exchange rate was good to me when I lasted visited. But I sympathize with you.
-izzy
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2023 03:14am
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Getting cells from US to Canada = royal PITA + a dash of stupidity. The same goes for shipping to the US from Canada... NAFTA comes with a subset of issues, notably if the cells are not from a NAFTA partner.
Canadian Made LFP cells are not available for public consumption either, they are all spoken for, production is ramping up in current factories and within a couple of years NorthVolt & Others will be producing.
I'll be building another 6 Packs of 24V/280AH in January - so late as I am having the shipment held till December 2nd as I am waiting for a new BMS which I had a wee hand in to be ready. All of it coming from Shengen by slow boat but the prices cannot be beat (ok I have inroads there) and with DDP no worries with customs etc, it's all handled. The gotcha of course, is one must engage the Patience Mode for the S&H time.
It's a shame that my kids have the notion that assembling battery packs or packing up battery cells for shipment to clients in Canada is "too much work every day" regardless that it's like printing money... I think one of them has semi-clicked on the possibilities but still too dumb to grab a gift opportunity. Even after I showed them our wholesale to retail margin - no real click - Boy, there is a pile of regrets for later... Lead a horse to water and maybe it will drink, then maybe not... not much anyone can do...
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2023 02:02pm
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Yep, Steve, ime, my version:
Ya can lead a horse to water but you cant make em think.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2023 04:13pm
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The kids are still too young to understand what a "Once in a Lifetime Opportunity" means... we learn about these through life & eventually know how & when to grab them when they come along... Those infamous Should'a, Could'a & Would'a -aves always come back to bite a bit and provide lessons learned.
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909
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2023 09:40pm
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I paid $135 CAD per 280 AH lifepo4 cell.
85 USD for 180AH is pretty good.
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rachelsdad
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# Posted: 25 Dec 2023 10:55pm
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They're $75 as of tonight.
Hmmmm...8 x 3.2 x 180?? 4.3 kwh vs my 4 Chevy Volts?
What am I missing....aren't these much better than the Volts?
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travellerw
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# Posted: 25 Dec 2023 11:05pm
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Looks like they are back to $101..
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rachelsdad
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# Posted: 25 Dec 2023 11:20pm
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Just hit the site again. Still showing $75 US.
Just bought 8.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 26 Dec 2023 08:53am
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Talking LFP Chemistry.
3.2 Volt Nominal Voltage per cell.
8 Cells in Series = 24V, Nominal 25.6V
Working Range 22.4V(2.8Vpc) to 27.2V (3.400Vpc)
16 Cells in series = 48V, Nominal 51.2V.
Working Range 44.8V - 54.4V
24V/180AH Battery Pack = 4,608Wh or 4.6kWh.
48V/180AH battery Pack = 9,216Wh or 9.3kWh.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 26 Dec 2023 09:18am
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For everyone's General Reference for LFP Charge Profiles.
All equipment MUST BE Voltage Corrected & Calibrated (VERY IMPORTANT)
Divide Values X2 for 12V. Multiply X2 for 48V.
Bulk/Absorb: 27.6 for 45 minutes (3.45vpc) (some call this boost) *never actually runs the full 45mins because of EndAmps
Equalize: OFF
Float: 27.5V (3.437vpc)
Min Volts: 21.2V (2.650vpc)
Max Volts: 28.6V (3.575vpc)
Rebulk Voltage: 25.6V (3.200vpc)
End Amps/TailCurrent: #.#(*1)
(*1): End Amps is calculated as shown, (100AH X 0.05 = 5A or 280AH X 0.05 = 14A.)
NB:
Coulumbic Efficiency / Battery Status Meter Efficiency for LFP = 99%.
* Do Not forget to adjust for Voltage Offsets between Actual Voltage @ Battery Terminal & at Solar Controller.
Very Special NOTE: Floating & Saturating to 3.437vpc, accounts for the Voltage Settling post Charge of any kind which actually brings the cells to just below 3.400Vpc.
Voltage Calibration: THIS IS CRITICAL and too many ignore it... All Lithium Chemistries are Millivolt & milliohm Sensitive, ensure you are actually delivering the specific voltages to your battery packs when charging AND reading them correctly when discharging.
Take your Multimeter (preferably 2 decimal points accurate so it reads DC as 48.25 not just 48.2) but a single decimal will work.
With everything ON and NO LOADS or no Solar Incoming:
Check the Batt Voltage at the Inverter Terminals - Note the standing voltage.
Check the voltage at your busbars - note that too.
Check the voltage at your battery terminals and note that... They are Different, aren't they ? Normal & Expected.
NEXT
Powered On and with an "average load" running from the Inverter.
Same deal, check the voltages at the above points & Note Them down... It ain't over yet !
NEXT
Powered On and Charging (Can be just SCC or SCC + Inverter Charger at same time)
Same thing again at all points and note the voltages.
Now you have a full picture of the Voltage Biases & losses during all cycles. You likely noted that when Not Charging the offset is one thing but different when charging from either/both sources. YOU MUST COMPENSATE & CORRECT FOR THAT ! (ohhh so many don't and hit walls.)
The TWO REALLY KEY POINTS OF INTEREST are the Charging Voltages (you never want to go above) and of course Inverter Low Volt Cutoff which will happen only when there is not enough power coming in from SCC/Charger. Not all equipment have Offset settings for the Input/Output voltages, if so, that's the best to use for such corrections, if not it means sitting down with a calculator and correcting manually.
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I pulled this from my other resources to post in here as a general ref for anyone looking at this thread and wondering about the "Minutia" that matters.
Hope it helps,
Steve
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paulz
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# Posted: 26 Dec 2023 10:20am - Edited by: paulz
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Thanks Steve, lots to take in…
I’ve considered getting in on this buying opportunity, shipping to west coast about $20 per battery but at $75 still pretty good. Plus I would need to add a BMS, internal in my current batts.
My old Valence batts are still hanging in there though, may go another year or two. Will LFP prices go up or down by then?
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Brettny
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# Posted: 26 Dec 2023 10:45am
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Isnt buying lithium ion with lifepo4 out like buying nicad battery now?
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 26 Dec 2023 10:52am
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LFP production is increasing rapidly, and costs are expected to drop some more as this continues but LMFP (Manganese Juiced) is also coming up fast, and in some circles that will outpace standard LFP which is good. LMFP will be more $ but the gains will be worth it, headed to EV's & Commercial ESS.
I hate to put a damper on it... but $75USD for a CALB-180 is not that great really. It's OK if they are fresh + Matched & Batched which BatteryHookUp doesn't do.
The reason the Valence Batteries do so well is because these are serious commercial "critical use" grade batteries. Medical Equipment etc... no compromises! All of those cells are indeed Matched & Batched. They all have identical Internal Resistance through the entire working voltage range. Just like an EV, all cells stay close to each other and remain generally well balanced internally. 1 naughty or off cell can wreck the pack.
Batching cells is usually done by manufacturer during their test cycles & grading process. Some vendors contract that out while those who have the proper equipment (rare cause it is very $$$) can batch them as well but plopp a cost on for that.
The Valence Batteries would be fine next to a DIY'ed pack or other prebuilt. That isn't an issue as such BUT putting a 50AH next to a 300AH in parallel, well that will have major quirkage. 100AH difference or lower is easy to manage but over 100AH things start to get quirky and FAST !
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paulz
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2023 06:52pm
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Quoting: Steve_S Bulk/Absorb: 27.6 for 45 minutes (3.45vpc)
Hi Steve,
I have both my charge controller and generator powered chargers set at numbers I found online some time ago. something like 14.2v (12v system) for bulk/absorb, maybe even higher, need to go back and look.
The solar never draws more than about 40 amps (4-140AH Valences) but the chargers will crank out twice that. The readout on the Tracer will show more that 14v while on the gen, but will drop under when shut off.
Hope that's OK..
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2023 07:24pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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Fwiw, I set the Meanwell pwr supply to hit the 12v lfp with 13.8 At The Bat Terminals when first hooked up on a low battery.
With a cheap old ammeter I wait until the amps fall off to 5ish and let it run for about another 1/2 hr.
After this last year of doing so Im getting my 'full charge'/ likely 90-95%? in about 2-2.5hrs.
Note: I use one at a time, rotating the other in as needed.
The bats (2) sit at 13.5+ until I start using them then after the top knee come down into the 13.3, then 13.2 for a good long time.
Ive been running them down (stopped trying to keep track of number of hours at 'x amps draw') to where the inverter low voltage cutoff happens. The bats always pop up some after the load is removed; seems like a good place to let that one sit in the basement until the one I have in use is nearing the cut-off point, then I recharge the first to take back.
This rotation/chg at home has worked out so well that I never even put the solar back up last year.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2023 08:33pm
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@Paul, The Valence are good cells & BMS but really, 13.8 is preferable "at the battery terminals".
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snobdds
Member
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# Posted: 28 Dec 2023 12:28am
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For the rest of us.
My bluetti kicks butt. I set it and forget it.
Some definite knowledge. In 2016 I was figuring out the best way to power the cabin would be, I determined and bought a Kubota diesel low boy. In 2023, I now have a solar generator and am going to put up a small array this summer. The Kubota now is for tools only.
Technology changes fast.
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paulz
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# Posted: 28 Dec 2023 06:14pm
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Quoting: gcrank1 Fwiw, I set the Meanwell pwr supply to hit the 12v lfp with 13.8 At The Bat Terminals when first hooked up on a low battery.
So that's the way to set the Meanwells, not with just a VOM and no battery connected?
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 28 Dec 2023 07:09pm
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I will defer to Steve_S for the final word on that, but 'under load' was the way I interpreted doing it and 13.8 delivered is 'safe'; ie, no fear of cell damaging overcharge (yes, the bms should save you, but what saves an old bms?).
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 28 Dec 2023 08:28pm
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I have a paired Meanwell setup (24V/50A), a Single 10A with a small adjuster box and a proper bench power supply. All of which I use for different purposes, charging, testing etc.
With Meanwells and similar LED Power Supplies (as some are called) It is best to set your target voltage first, before connecting to the battery. When you first startup the charger, the battery will pull down the voltage till it starts to actually charge and will slowly go up to reach your point (doesn't take too long depending how discharged it is). Once at the target point, it will push the rated amps it can into the battery or cells if doing cell level stuff.
Meanwells and many of their "close clones" do have a small adjustment pot on the right hand side just past al the connections. With a good DMM/DVOM attached to the wire ends, adjust that to get your 13.8V. Most are pretty touchy... can be frustrating.
BTW, If Anyone wants to take a Meanwell Type power supply and turn it into a good bench power-supply with a lot of flexibility, this company makes excellent solutions for that.
https://riden.aliexpress.com/store/group/RD-Series/1100222077_40000000657791.html?
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 28 Dec 2023 08:50pm - Edited by: ICC
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YES,  The RD stuff is very good. I have a couple of their things. Very pleased.
-izzy
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 28 Dec 2023 10:10pm
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That is how I set my Meanwell, did a prelim setting with the little adj. pot with no load and ran a couple of charges on both my 100ah lfp 12v bats.
Then I was more comfortable with the process so I went to the tweak on the pot (yes, touchy, but I have Good dig-meter) to target 13.8 (+ .01 or .02) at the bat terminals. I do a check each charge for safety but havent had to re-tweak, it is holding on set point.
I know I picked up some 'extra' top charge I wasnt getting before, I get more run time.
I do get higher amps charging at a higher set point but Im good with a couple hours, no need to max charge amps for a bit shorter time for me; what a dif from LA!
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paulz
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2023 08:28am
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I’m still at the city house waiting out the bad weather, will be another day or two before I can reset the Meanwells and solar controller. I’m only a half hour away.
Curious about LFP ‘cycles’ often listed (usually a high number, like thousands). What creates a cycle? All my power is off while I’m away, but the solar is still going, so the charge controller uses some power at night, and hopefully some recharge happens during the day. Does that count as a cycle? Is it better to let Lfp batteries sit disconnected while away?
When living there, battery voltage fluctuates between 12.9 as a low and typically 13.2 or 3 as a high after charging.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2023 01:03pm
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A full cycle is from 0% to 100%.
A partial cycle is obviously 50% to 100%.
As for disconnecting batts... if they are not outputting anything and get a bit of solar to maintain them, no issues. If they are "totally off" they can sit for months losing minuscule energy (if BMS is off), otherwise there is some BMS parasitic drain but very small.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2023 01:36pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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I have stored our 2 in our home 50*f basement (at floor level) overwinter and not noticed more than a .1 volt change on the meter. Btw, even lfp bats are reduced in useful capacity if left in a below 32* cabin.
I can take one easy enough for a winter visit to the cabin and have it warm and ready to power up with just clipping the Anderson Con's together and flipping the inverter switch. Its nice to have the ceiling fan kicking the warm heater air around the room.
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paulz
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2023 09:17pm
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Quoting: Steve_S LMFP (Manganese Juiced) is also coming up fast, and in some circles that will outpace standard LFP which is good.
Interesting news (for me) Steve. Maybe a good time to hold on to current batts and see where this goes..
From:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lfp-vs-lmfp-rory-wang-mlalc
LFP cathode material cell is well-known for their low cost, environmental friendliness, high safety performance, good structural stability and cycle performance. However, poor low temperature performance and low energy density are its underbelly.
The advent of LMFP perfectly protect LFP's underbelly. With the same regular olivine structure, LMFP is also feathured by low cost, high safety performance, high thermal stability, no spontaneous combustion when punctured or overcharged, long life, safety and no risk of explosion. The advantages of lithium manganese phosphate can also make up for the shortcomings of low energy density of lithium iron phosphate, so it is also known as the "upgraded version of LFP".
This article focuses on two aspects of the comparisons: namely, Material and Performance.
Material Comparison (image from BAK)
LMFP advantages:
Normally speaking, the higher the voltage of a single cell of a lithium battery, the higher the energy density of the lithium battery cell, and the more techniques the manufacturing requires.
Greater energy density and longer battery life.
The theoretical capacity of LMFP is the same as that of LFP, which is around 155 mAh/g; however, the voltage of LMFP rise to 4.0V, which is much higher than the 3.4V of LFP, and it is within the stable electrochemical window for the organic electrolyte system, increased by 0.6V compared to LFP, and the platform voltage is increased by 20%.
Lower manufacturing costs
The main difference between the material dosage of LMFP and LFP lies in the change in the amount of manganese source required. Each kWh of LFP cathode requires 0.61kg of iron source, while per kWh of LMFP cathode requires 0.13kg of iron + manganese 0.38kg.
LMFP disadvantages:
LFP has a better cycle life and better charge and discharge capabilities than LMFP. Manganese element is added to LMFP so that the dissolution of manganese will cause the cycle life to be shortened and the charge and discharge capacity and life to be affected.
The low conductivity of LMFP causes the material's capacity to be unable to be fully utilized.
LMFP cathode material battery draw up the blueprint for the battery industry. It is the most ideal power battery ever invented. In the future, it will even become the most cost-effective power battery and one of the core products for the future development of the battery industry. It has unparalleled advantages compared to other power batteries.
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