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Nobadays
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2022 07:42am
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Well crap! This is the 3rd year on 4 of the 8, 2nd year on 2 and first on the remaining 2. I know someone else had this issue last year? Any idea why they "blew up" ?
They were left charged about 85% @ 46.5v (48v system), Solar input was shut off, inverter was shut off at the inverter and the main breaker that sends power to the load center was off. The only thing left on were the breakers between the batteries and the inverter... which was off, and disconnected from any possible load anyway!
I guess I have to assume they somehow drained and froze. I just can't remember ever turning off the breakers between the batteries and the inverter in the past.
I'm at a loss, of the WHY, and a loss of about $4,000 for these batteries.... not to mention the $7,000 it will take to replace them with pre-built LiFePo.
I know it's cheaper to build my own batteries but at this time we need to get back up and running. Thinking of buying 4 of the Chins 24v/200ah pre-builts. They have mixed reviews on DIY but good reviews on Amazon and some RV forums I found. 30 day return policy and comments on. Amazon seem to indicate they are responsive to issues.
Unless anyone can point me elsewhere.... 48v system minimum of 400ah needed.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2022 08:39am - Edited by: Steve_S
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- How did you determine they are "ruined or blown up" ?
Blown Up with NCA/NMC implies explosion (real possibility for that chemistry) and these do not appear to be damaged in such a way... You'd be minus a building.
From your description, it sounds more like the BMS shutoff due to either Low Cell or Low Pack state and if below start level, the BMS will not engage and enable charging.
More Info is required such as BMS Type & Settings (which could be a cause) and related info you can provide, also if using relay's / contactors etc.
Will has reviewed Chins, AmpereTime and several others including SOK and they have all come a long way, especially recently there have been Big Changed in the internal BMS'. I would very strongly urge you to review the most recent teardowns and what changes are within.
With regards to BMS' in general. In 2022 the availability of SmartBMS with either BlueTooth or Computer interfaces to tweak, adjust & monitor are all pretty common now and virtually everything has Low Temp protection now. BMS Tech has also changed a LOT over the past few years and what is available "now" is quite a leap ahead of what was.
BTW: As a 48V System, if you are going to buy Commercial batteries, then do the smart thing and get 48V Batteries, do not link batteries in Series to get to 48V, that is just trouble waiting to happen. Battery Packs in Parallel are no problem but after 4 packs you do have to consider "bank management".
Good Luck, Hope it helps.
PS: Have a look at this link which lists commercial packs & reviews them. Now all are available worldwide but most are. The list changes & updates every 2 months or so.
https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/battery-storage-comparison-chart
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paulz
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2022 10:08am
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Geez, just what you need on your relocation to the cabin, with 100 other tasks to do I'm sure. Wish I could offer advice but the other guy are the experts.
I've been pondering myself lately about longevity. After much, much effort my system has been working so well lately we've been watching TV (MLB fans), running the inverter all day, power tools... and not even thinking twice about it, just an occasional check on the battery voltage. But how long will this last, what will die and when? When the grid power goes out it's someone else's problem, just sit back and wait. When the off grid system dies, it's on you.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2022 11:31am
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Geez $4k in losses in 3yrs? I couldn't swallow that.
I left my batteries and CC hooked up all winter and came back to fully charged batteries. But there just GC2 FLA. They didnt even use water.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2022 01:52pm
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You left the powered off inverter hooked up? Could it still be drawing internally while hooked up even though not switched on? Maybe keeping the capacitors powered?
I got in the habit early on of disconnecting the inverter so I never had to wonder.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2022 02:40pm
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Quoting: gcrank1 You left the powered off inverter hooked up? Could it still be drawing internally while hooked up even though not switched on? Maybe keeping the capacitors powered? I got in the habit early on of disconnecting the inverter so I never had to wonder
The way I read it the inverters standby/powered off draw is what did things in. I believe the same thing that happened with the other members system.
I left my inverter connected this winter but also left the CC hooked up and powering things. There where a few days durring the winter that part of one pannel wasn't covered in snow, I have a camera pointed that way.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2022 02:52pm
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Steve... thanks for the input/link. No they did not explode, rather it appears they frozecand swelled up. Nevertheless they are ruined. The bms is only a balancer, Chargery maybe. Supplied by Kelven. Would love to get 48v LiFePo batteries to avoid having to tie 2/24v together x 2 to get 400ah... these will then ru to a 48vdc breaker in a breake/combiner box then on to the inverter.... but I have yet to see any 48v at more then 100ah in my price range. Ampere Time has a 48/100 @ $2,200 but I would need 4 so $8,800. I can get 4 Chins 24/200 for $6,500. For us $2,300 is a lot and linking batteries has been done for years... done correctly I will not be asking for trouble.
Yeah Brett... I hurts big time! I am sure there was operator error in there... leaving the breakers on even with the inverter off and all loads disconnected must have drained the batteries and allowed them to freeze... only explanation I can see.
Paul... yep we are the utility company!
Gcrank... yep guessing you are right, except I never remember turning those breakers off in the past... must have though.
Thanks guys!
As Gcrank pointed out possibly the inverter was still drawing a bit of power, should have shut off the breaker
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2022 04:46pm - Edited by: Steve_S
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Frozen & Swollen ? Hmmmm.
Volt Batteries are NMC Chemistry.
Operating Temperature Range -30ºC to +55ºC
Storage Temperature Range -40ºC to +60ºC
Something else screwed up and to have enough force to split the plywood box open, that's a first I have heard with this chemistry (to be fair I am an LFP guy). I don't think I would attempt recovery, personally.
Chargery is a BMS & Passive Balancer here is a picture of the 16T version, others are similar.
Being that you are in the US, there are US Warehouses with fast delivery of cells & components as well. Docan & Basen (Known Good @ DIYSolar) are apparently delivering within 1 week currently from US Stock, 280AH & 304AH cells.
$2448.00 USD for 16x304AH EVE cells. All-In !
So that is $4896.00 US for 32 Cells or 2X 48V/304AH/15.5kWh battery packs.
Follow this Link (past Friday): https://diysolarforum.com/threads/304ah-cells-ordered-monday-arrived-friday.38870/pos t-491507
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Nobadays
Member
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2022 09:28pm
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Steve... thank you! I am guessing I would also need a bms for the packs. Definitely something I will look into!
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 07:35am
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Yes, this would still require a BMS and any Terminals/Lugs you wish to use.
I am in process of changing my Battery Fleet BMS' from Chargery BMS8T-300A platform to using the JK-BMS with 2A Active Balancing, RS485/CanBus & BlueTooth Communications.
Both of these JKBMS models would be perfect for your application (I'm using the 1st one on all packs both production & utility.
JK-B2A24S15P <- 150A Model
JK-B2A24S20P <- 200A Model
LINK: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003104573871.html
These are available on EBay & Amazon of course but WATCH the "shipping from". Now this might surprise you but Air Freighting them here from China took <10 days and did not cost an arm & leg (they don't weight much) and was actually cheaper than buying off EBay/Amazon.
I am, attaching the Basic LifePo Guide I wrote up for a Known Good Vendor which has various bits of info that is handy to have at hand. Also, the Image attached is for the Battery Terminals I use in my Production Packs (Good Deal)
IF you have Chargery BMS16 units with either Relays or Contactors they can be used with LFP as it is just a matter of resetting params and connecting the sense leads etc. Link to the BMS16 is here for reference and the docs are linked on the page as well... http://chargery.com/BMS16Pro.asp as per bottom of Pg.2 I know nothing, see nothing, hear nothing.... LOL
Ohhh an FYI for clarification.
I have 5 Production Packs which is my primary Battery Bank consisting of 3x280AH & 2x175AH (30kWh) which runs my home. Utility Packs are for Bunky & Shed --- LOL offgrid solar bug got the best of me hahaha... So, more than a hobby ? maybe so.
Hope it helps, Good Luck.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 09:03am
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Thanks for this Steve! Wife pretty much told me that I don't need another project right now...she wants power! Told me to spend the money and buy the Chins pre-built.
I read through the most recent DIY information on Chins and it was encouraging. The only concern was that in some of the batteries they are now using pouch cells instead of prismatic. BUT, the guy that tore the battery down and Will both said they looked well built. Will said he would recommend them regardless.
Contacted Chins at their online store, apartheid don't sell through that store and offered 10% off to do an offline transaction. Seems a bit sketchy but did tell me that if I wasn't comfortable with offline transaction he would give me a 3% code to use at Amazon. I just can't afford to lose any more money so buying through Amazon... we'll see if he really does supply a discount code.
I do have the go ahead to build some additional packs to add to the Chins. Have an electrician friend here that built his packs who can assist me.
Thanks for all the information!
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 09:11am
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Happy to be of help... and even with the CHINS that can get you up & running you can always add more later & DIY it. That is one GREAT think about getting away from LEAD, you can add more without concerns later on.
Will Prowse's teardowns and such are pretty good & the LFP in Pouch Format is perfectly fine. Many do not realize that LFP can be had in Cylindrical, Prismatic & Pouch formats. I believe that Will has provided links to Good Suppliers which are in the US.
Boy, some things are coming that will really send a few for a spin.... hehehe.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 09:20am
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WOW!! Just sitting on the couch having our coffee and one of the battery packs... really did blow up... no fire but a loud bang! Looked in there and the first module that was only slightly separated now has the whole end blown off and blew the side off the 3/4" plywood box it is in!
Nothing is hooked up to them... the grounds are still tied at the busbar but all positives tie to individual breakers that are off. The bms is completely disconnected. BTW... if you missed it, Steve pointed out that this chemistry freeze temps are extremely low, way lower than any temps we have ever experienced here.
No idea what is happening but it is apparently nothing I did (comforting but still a bummer) and whatever happened is still happening! These things go are getting out of the cabin today!!
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 10:05am
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You are having a Chemical Failure !
GET THEM OUT NOW !
If this starts with this chemistry, it's a matter of time before a fire erupts & THAT will not be something you can handle !
Make sure there is NOTHING that can catch fire where you put them, isolate each pack separate (don't want to chain react if it does catch). Check local Waste Management as to where these can be taken for proper recycling.
I'm sorry, I wish I could pop over to lend a hand & gear....
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 10:12am
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Hope you get these out and safely located without incident while you are handling them!
If one starts on fire in the very near future just be glad you went to the place and got them out when you did.
Good timing!
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FishHog
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 02:52pm
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Yikes, I don't have an knowledge to add just some sympathies for your struggles but happy you are there and hopefully got them out of your cabin before a major issues evolved.
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Nobadays
Member
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 03:50pm
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Still have no idea why but yes.... the packs are out and sitting on bare dirt far from structures. 4 are separated I will go separate the other 4. They are still expanding and popping apart.
Praying they do not catch fire. Thankful we came back when we did!
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paulz
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 04:46pm
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Sure the first ones popped prior to your arrival? Coincidence the others popped shortly thereafter.
Do Chevy Volts do this?
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 07:54pm
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Heard the bang! Looks like that wasnt the battery 'exploding' but the box as the bat-cell expansion took it out.
Were the bats warm or hot when you had to handle them?
Do you know if the cells were from an early Volt? I see the Volt dates back to 2010-2011ish so if this is time related at about 10-12yrs out we should start hearing about it in older Volts.
Do I remember that through the years the EV's biggest failing has been the bats? And that the basic EV bat chemistry now is pretty much what it has been?
If so, this doesnt bode well for EV's.
Or is this failure caused by something else in your build?
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 08:28pm
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Paul... all had started to expand prior to our arrival, every module was swelled to some degree.
Gcrank... the batteries and pouches were cool to the touch. I doubt they will ignite but having them outside and separated from each other is best. The batteries were all out of mid mileage, 2014 Chevy Volts. The thought of age causing this has crossed my mind as well.
Actually I think almost or all EVs have switched to LFP or similar, less dangerous chemistry.
From all i can find the Chevy Volt fires were tied to crashes or charging issues. I'm not too worried that these will burn but who knows.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 08:36pm
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Quoting: gcrank1 If so, this doesnt bode well for EV's.
In "Battery Tech Terms" 10 Years is already 3 chemistry generations away. What was in the Early GM Products were are not what is available today, let alone used in EV Production now.
The cells are having a chemistry issue, something caused / causing an internal failure as indicated by the bloat... Sadly it's an indicator for a potential thermal runaway situation. IF they are Warmer than the surroundings they are starting to "cook".
Separate & Isolate the batteries, get all the wire harnesses etc OFF. IF not too hot yet, I would break open the packs (if possible to do quickly) and separate the cells and get the failing bloating cells into an isolated steel container (NO WATER EVER !!!! If they Catch).
Disposal depends on WHERE you are and what services are available. The Non-bloaters can goto recycle but the baddies I dunno, you'll have to check.
The best fire extinguisher for a lithium-ion battery fire is an ABC or BC extinguisher. However, a lithium battery fire needs a class-D dry powder extinguisher, certified for use in lithium fires. These types of batteries have very different hazards that require different extinguishers. Have one at the door of the Powerhouse.
@Nobadays, a quick question but ... Did you see ANY indication of Rodent Activity ? Weird / Odd stains on or around the batteries ? I know not something you'd look for "right now" but rodents being what they are can do "shit" we all hate. Repeats of this Not Required !
I AM AFRAID FOR YOU BTW:
The simple fact that they are still expanding "now" and forcing the boxes apart means that this is ACTIVE and as such Highly Volatile, PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL with Ears & Eyes wide open when handling them. DO NOT MAKE PHYSICAL CONTACT with ANY of the chemicals or leakage. If you start hearing odd sounds (boiling/crackling or anything like) get back ! If they were not still expanding etc, I would be far less worried BUT that is not the case and this has to be considered an Volatile Active Failure that IS out of control.
Watching thread with Fingers Crossed.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 09:09pm
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Steve... no rodents in the cabin, no evidence ever and the batteries were under the stairwell. There is no evidence of leakage from any of the pouches but they are definitely swollen. I felt/squeezed several different pouches. No heat, actually cool to the touch. They are all sitting on bare earth and separated by 4-5' from each other.
Two of the modules show very little swelling. The other 6 are pretty bad. I will examine them again in the morning to see if there is any change. I'm not sure they are continuing to expand or if they were confined in the wooden boxes so when removed they were able to expand.
Crossing my fingers and praying fires!
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 09:36pm
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Just went out to check on the batteries... all pouches cool to the touch. I finally settled down enough that I thought I should check voltage. Every module, even the ones coming apart at the seams read 20.2vdc... right across the board! BTW, not seeing any change 8n the modules since this morning.
Kind of back to maybe the inverter, even off drained the batteries. Will being extremely low make them do this... doesn't seem like it at all?? That's like 1.68v per cell, the knee is at 3.5v .
What if the 2 that are showing very little swell were put back in service? Would they recover or do you think they would begin to swell... be dangerous? Just a thought.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 09:38pm
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Wife says they are not coming back in the cabin! I ordered the Chins....
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 09:41pm
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When I have had a ball-joint go bad I dont just replace that one.....
Could you ever really trust those two?
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paulz
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2022 10:55pm
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Quoting: Nobadays Kind of back to maybe the inverter, even off drained the batteries. Will being extremely low make them do this... doesn't seem like it at all?? That's like 1.68v per cell, the knee is at 3.5v .
I know my inverters put out a healthy spark when first connected (and off) but as said probably just the capacitors charging. Haven't found much info online, just a couple of general assumptions that they draw no power off. I meant to check mine today with a meter but forgot, I will tomorrow. Maybe if the caps went bad they would draw something, or more of something.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2022 06:10am
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IF the Inverter & such were off they are OFF. Some have a Standby Mode but that leave lights or something indicating on and you'd know it.
IF the BMS' were indeed Chargery's they could have done it ! The settings are fiddly and with relays/contactors they can completely drain a battery pack. In fact THAT is my 1st Suspicion, is the BMS was NOT "Stopped" and therefore continued to burn off for Balancing & feeding the Relays/Contactors. They have to be specifically Powered Off.
I would NOT put these back in service, Trusting them now... nope. Hear the Missus she has Great Wisdom! Self-Preservation instinct is good.
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Bruces
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2022 08:26am
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Two summers ago ,I had a Samsung cell phone sitting on a coffee table ,and it literally went poof ,let out the magic smoke and grew to 3 inches thick ! The phone was 2 years old at the time . Some of these batteries are a little scary .Glad you didn’t lose more than a few batteries and thousands of dollars .
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Brettny
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2022 08:49am
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Quoting: Bruces Two summers ago ,I had a Samsung cell phone sitting on a coffee table ,and it literally went poof ,let out the magic smoke and grew to 3 inches thick ! The phone was 2 years old at the time . Some of these batteries are a little scary .Glad you didn’t lose more than a few batteries and thousands of dollars .
I had a similar thing happen.
Samsung phone sitting on the charger for months and I noticed the battery was swollen, got removed right away.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2022 09:27am
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Steve and All.... yeah not bringing the modules back in!
The BMS was Physically disconnected from the modules... unplugged. No standby function I'm aware of on my Schneider 4048 inverter.... no lights were on. It was off.
Kind of a mystery.... but fortunate no loss other than the batteries. I just hate mysteries though!
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