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groingo
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2022 01:16pm - Edited by: groingo
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My Power company is keeping an eye on me.
Over the years I have gotten a bunch of Awards from (PSE Puget Sound Energy) for using the least energy of anyone living in a home out of 4 million customers but this time I got another but they wanted to know if anything is wrong because my power use was up by 73% but still 5% below anyone else. So why did it jump so much?
I do market research and development for many companies and specialize in portable heating....I was testing a lot of heaters of which ALL FAILED to be more efficient than their previous year of which Honeywell led with most gimicks and poorest efficency followed closely by Delonghi.
The bar that had to meet was set by the 2005 Lakewood CTH 2 heater of which none of ten heaters even came close....very dissapointing.
Just remember, your power company is watch!
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2022 05:31pm
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I think everybody is watching now from all we are hearing 
But your point is taken. And congrates on your awards, Well Done!
Makes me wonder if somewhere down the line we will all be required to pay 'our fair share' of the elec infrastructure costs regardless of being on grid or not.
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groingo
Member
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2022 06:29pm - Edited by: groingo
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So true, just look at what Washington State did with Electric car license fees, my Leaf is $281.00 while ICE cars are $68.00 the reasoning being is gas tax pays for road repairs and electric doen't use gas so they estimated the amount of tax of which I would have to drive over 100,000 miles a year to chalk up that much gas tax, thing is less than 1% of the cars on the road in Washington are electric including Hybrids!
The other thing they forget is they collect taxes from everything else that also go to roads so you get tripple slapped at every turn and our roads suck!
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Nate R
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2022 08:59pm
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Quoting: groingo I would have to drive over 100,000 miles a year to chalk up that much gas tax,
I hear you, but this doesn't add up? WA gas tax is nearly 52 cents/gallon. At 30 MPG, I get about 12K miles/year?
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2022 10:01pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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groingo, I have 2 hybrids, a 2019 RAV4 HV and a 2012 Prius V wagon hybrid, and I was hit with an extra $75 on each to pay for electric charging stations, but the kicker is, I do not use electric charge stations. Not even an option, my batteries are charged by a gasoline engine.
I pay about $150 for the RAV4 and $150 for the Prius V.
My 2016 Camry commuter is about $75 a year, and my RAM 2500 diesel at over 8000lbs is $110 a year.
Not too long ago, we got hit with an extra weight fee, I think it was $35 for every vehicle, kicker is, I have a 08 Yamaha 250, that weighs about 225 lbs and I pay the same weight fee for it a year. I spend more in weight fees alone than I do on gas, plus the 75 in tabs. I put less that 150 miles a year on it. It doesnt even pencil out to own it anymore.
Groingo, I suspect you are in a county that pays for RTA ripoff. I am not in that area.
I got a new meter from my power company and its looks to have lots of electronics. And ever since I got this new meter installed, I am now gettign those same letters showing my energy usage. In the summer, I am well under homes in my area and in the "great" range and in the winter, I am just good or outside the sweet spot by 15%, but I use less energy that similar homes in my area.
When I saw that new meter, I know it would monitor my usage and what time I was using it and send it somewhere.
I suspect next step will be peak hour rates will be higher now that they will know when it was used.
Govt and utilities voracious appetite for ever more money (life's energy), ie wealth created from your labor.
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ICC
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# Posted: 29 Jan 2022 10:30pm - Edited by: ICC
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EV's, hybrids, gas or diesel ICE vehicles all need roads in order to be useful to us.
What would be the fairest system to pay for the construction and maintenance of roads?
How about a system based on vehicle weight, and the number of miles driven?
Drive many more miles in an EV and you may pay less than someone with a big heavy trailer queen 4x4 that hardly ever turns a wheel. Or something like that. Pay your fair share... how the fair share is computated is the question.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 05:30am
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Quoting: ICC Drive many more miles in an EV and you may pay less than someone with a big heavy trailer queen 4x4 that hardly ever turns a wheel. Or something like that
This would raise the cost of trucking and shipping thus raising the cost of all goods. So would kind of be a double tax.
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paulz
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 09:24am
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I get road repair tax added to my yearly vehicle registrations (in addition to the gas and other taxes). So I pay on 20 or so registrations, most on motorcycles and collector vehicles that are rarely driven, and of course one at a time, while a commuter with one car can rack up the miles on one fee. They can be put on 'non operations' status, for a one time fee and avoid the yearly payments, which I do on some, and take a chance using them once in awhile to keep the juices flowing.
Not fair but I guess they feel if you can afford to have collector vehicles you can afford whatever taxes they come up with.
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paulz
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 09:32am - Edited by: paulz
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In Calif we have been on 'smart meters' for years, get the monthly home energy reports, rewards etc.. I'm always way under the average since we're only here half the time, use the wood stove constantly in winter and no summer AC. And of course, also being an off gridder, conscious of energy usage.
I lost one leg of my 240v in a storm a month ago, they were able to identify it over the phone.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 07:52pm
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Quoting: ICC EV's, hybrids, gas or diesel ICE vehicles all need roads in order to be useful to us.
I was speaking of the EV charging stations, anyone with a hybrid is paying for them. Why not those who use them?
What is fair, how much is too much? The feds and state govt collect more money than the oil companies do in profit, by a massive amount.
My states fed and state taxes are now 68 cents per gallon. (18.5 being the fed) By the mile would be OK, but if they drop the rest.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 08:13pm
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Are you advocating for the ev's that recharge at the stations be the only ones who 'pay for them'? How novel....just like dino-fuel vehicles actually pay for 'gas stations' and bicycle riders dont 
I sure agree that hybrid owners who wont use a chg-station shouldnt have to be subsidizing them by being lumped together in the same bucket as pure ev's, but somehow I think we ALL are subsidizing them in one or more ways, ways we dont even know about.
If this was all done in a free-market it would be far different than gov-mandate where 'spread the pain-thinly-but the beatings will continue' is business as usual.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 08:58pm - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech I was speaking of the EV charging stations, anyone with a hybrid is paying for them.
A mileage charge for EV's could go towards that.
Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech My states fed and state taxes are now 68 cents per gallon. (18.5 being the fed) By the mile would be OK, but if they drop the rest.
My belief is that the entire road fuel tax, vehicle registration and road build/maintain financial group needs to be re-thought. But change like that is difficult; slow as molasses.
The federal portion of the gas tax has not changed since 1993, but the consumer price index shows a 90% increase from 1993 to 2020. (fuel tax is not indexed to inflation.)
Vehicles get more miles per gallon now than they did in the 70's. They also do weigh a little less so less weight makes for less impact on a road per mile, but the increased fuel economy reduces the tax income by more than is gained by weight reduction, IMO. So, that is another reason to change the road fuel tax rules.
Two people with identical vehicles currently pay the same annual registration fee in my state. A car driven 5000 miles a year has less impact on roads than the same car driven 25,000 miles. So rather than collect taxes on fuel sales why not have a mileage fee for gas, diesel or electric and stop collecting road fuel taxes.
That would also eliminate the need for special (colored) farm gas. Untaxed it would all be the same fuel except for octane rating. Sort of a one size/type fits all. No need for separate tanks, no need for fuel color inspections. Those missing tax dollars would need to be made up by a different source, such road mileage fees on vehicles using roads.
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Out here in the western mountains the distances are too great for many EV only vehicles to be used regularly between distant points. More charging stations would make that an easier choice. But it is hard to find charging stations in many parts of NM.
I suspect that is one reason why toyota_mdt_tech has hybrids. I did really the old Chevy Volt because it could be plugged in as well as burn gas as needed. A friend had one that was mostly solar charged, but used a little gas each time he drove south to see family. Too bad the Chevy Bolt was self-immolating. It could have been a decent city EV.
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Anyhow I am a believer that nothing should be set in concrete, and that goes for doing things a certain way just because they have "always" been done that way.
Trivia: For the first 20 years or so in the 1910's+, the taxes on gas went to general uses and to help pay for WW2 and the Korean war. The start of building the interstate system was the point where fuel taxes became earmarked for roads. For almost 10 years in the 90's a portion was diverted to the reduction of the deficit.
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ICC
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 09:02pm
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Quoting: Brettny This would raise the cost of trucking and shipping thus raising the cost of all goods.
Trucks moving goods over public roads should pay whatever the fair share is. Part of the problem is fairly calculating that cost.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 09:14pm
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The heavy truck traffic here is what destroys the roads faarrr faster than the pers. trans modules.
Making them pay in proportion to the damage (how?) would indeed raise consumer prices but it would be 'their fair share'.
Snake pit.....
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ICC
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 09:21pm
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Quoting: gcrank1 Making them pay in proportion to the damage (how?) would indeed raise consumer prices but it would be 'their fair share'.
The "how" is important to figure out. I don't know exactly how but there must be smarter people who could.
And 'their fair share' is our (we consumers of goods) fair share.
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ICC
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 09:31pm - Edited by: ICC
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OR, one can take the attitude that good roads benefit everyone in many different ways. Getting food from AZ, CA, FL to the northern states is important for example. Perhaps roads should be government subsidized in order to not penalize where one lives.? There is much to be said about being fair to everyone.
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snobdds
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 09:40pm
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Taxes should be applied to the energy used to charge the EV. I'm sure they are trying to figure out a way to isolate EV charging usage at home. Then it removes all these arguments.
I still don't see EV taking over the IC motor though. For transportation, liquid fuel is so much better than electrons. For the simplicity of refueling alone.
Batteries should be used in homes. Batteries are just storage and need generation abilities to be a cost benefit. For those that can generate solar, it's a good match.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 10:11pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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Until we get the next gen, or maybe the next after the next, of very energy dense 'storage', and at an affordable cost, it isnt going to happen. Just calc what size your lfp bat-bank would need to be today on the kWh's you use, x at least 3 days, pref more, then calc the array needed to feed that monster.
The poor, lower and much of the middle class can not afford to upgrade all elec systems for conservation 1st and solar autonomy too, so is everybody going to pool their funds and divy it out equally to every household?
What if your household is 6 people and ours is still 2?
Hey, throw in one ev too.
The thing about Utopia is that other than in our dreams it becomes dystopia. A check of the historical record is not encouraging.
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snobdds
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# Posted: 30 Jan 2022 10:27pm
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For areas that have brown outs and frequent outages, a home solar powered battery bank that can provide some juice to get through the down times works today. Charge the batteries from the grid when solar capture is low and ready for the next outage.
I do agree, a more energy dense battery is needed, but more importantly...it needs a much faster charge time.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 31 Jan 2022 10:58am
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The 'powerwall' concept sounds attractive to me, but Im coming at it from the perspective of few,,and not too long, power outages here in the 35ish years weve been here.
Im suspecting that outages, brown and blackouts may increase though its just a gut feeling. Im not big on a Whole House Gen, at whatever fuel costs, though Ive had a 5kW gas gen ready for our small 940sf house for years. The only running it has done was to trial it out and to run good gas through...
I think the next-gen bat-tech of 'powerwalls' might be better than buying into the current ones. A lot of existing homes just do not have the right siting at all for solar and running gens looks like it may be outlawed.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 3 Feb 2022 04:35am - Edited by: DaveBell
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Ret. Navy SEAL and CIA contractor Shawn Ryan talks about the future of the power grid with Brian Garret, a 30 year line man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSHvqMh9vrI
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 4 Feb 2022 02:52pm
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Excellent stuff, DB
Just so everybody knows, the program takes some time but is worth it, imo.
I also used that link to listen to a segment on the Supply Chain Issues; I recommend it also. They is some insightful info on computer chips and batteries in it.
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