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zorro
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 09:24am
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So same again this year
Pipes froze early and I spent 3 hours defrosting, draining and blowing them out…………..and we did not have crazy low temps but high wind which was the main factor I think
The way the cabin is built, all pipes are exposed (and zero insulation on them); they are below the cabin floor running alongside the joists – but totally open and I think it is the cold wind (and low temps) that are killing me
I know I cannot run the cabin as 4 seasons, but would like to at least be able to run water at moderately low temps
My thought for the spring was to use something like R38 Battens run into the joists and then closed over with 1†plywood to seal out the wind and any rodents………….I would only do this where the pipes are and also either side; so effectively pipes in the middle closed in and then also either side closed in for protection
My main concern with this idea though is moisture
Would this create a moisture issue for me?
I could consider spry foam, but am worried that if I ever had a frozen pipe or a burst pipe, it would be difficult to locate and repair under the spray foam
I also considered using heating cables along the pipes, but I would need a run of around 60’, which would equate to approx. 420W usage when running, which seems a bit high from my battery bank
And the only other thing I can think of is the cheaper "noodle" type foam insulation around the pipes, though that only offers around R3 rating........not much, but better than nothing currently
Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks
Paul
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 10:08am - Edited by: gcrank1
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1st off, with a battery bank system (solar charged?) only huge ones can support any length of time running any type of resistance heating.
Imo any covering is only a band-aid which will still freeze up. Then it will be harder to get at....again.
Insulation by itself provided no heat; ie, no change to the temp water freezes at, it only slows the heat/cold 'exchange'.
I would be re-working the pipes to all have downslope to a common (hopefully) drain spigot so all you have to do is stop any water pressure in the system, open a high faucet and open the drain spigot, draining all the water easily by gravity. Run a hose away from the structure.
In the end of season do this each time before you leave (never know when the surprise freeze comes early) and worries over.
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zorro
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 10:26am
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Thanks for the suggestions
Actually, I have most of what you say and agree the battery bank would not support this in any shape
Cabin is only 3 years old and the pipes were all (in theory) run to slope to the back of the cabin, with 2 outside drain spigots (which had also totally frozen up)
The well also has the "drain back" option so that when i turn off the well from the head, water should drop back down to the well
Not sure the angle of the hot/cold PEX pipes is right though and maybe not "steep enough" when draining to the rear spigots........That is maybe something worth investigating a bit further come the spring, but really got limited space to move them
Not sure what the answer is
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travellerw
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 10:28am
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Hmm not %100 sure wind is a major part of the concern. Wind or not, the ambient temp must be down below 0C for water to freeze. Of course wind will make that happen faster as it removes the heat from the water quicker, but it still needs to be below 0C. If the water is not moving in the pipe for a long period (like 8 hours) and its below 0C, then its going to freeze unless its receiving heat somehow. So I think you would be putting a lot of effort and expense for a marginal benefit.
Is your problem when you leave the cabin, or have you pipes been freezing while you are there? Around here thats a big problem as it can be +10C during the day and -10C at night.
A trick that RVers use in an enclosed underbelly is to put about 100W of incandescent lighting bulbs. It provides enough heat in a mid-sized RV to keep the water from freezing down to about -5-7C. You could enclose those joist bays and insulate the bottom and sides with rigid foam. Then put some incandescent bulbs to add heat. However, even 100W is a ton to draw from a battery/solar system
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littlesalmon4
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 11:17am
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If this is for when you are away you could either introduce air to the upper valve to blow the system out of your drain valves or introduce an RV pump into your water circuit near the well. Have the RV pump run plumbing anti freeze through your water system.
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 11:28am
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Yeah - I think I may need to just accept this as part of the cabin
The 100W bulbs would be at least as bad as the heat cables unfortunately
They froze this time overnight - likely my fault and I should at least have drained back the lines before going to bed
I just thought that enclosing the lines with either R38 and then sealing off with ply would help, but agree, that could create further issues for me
Likely just have to put up with it as I just dont see other available options really
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Brettny
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 11:30am
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Blow the system out when your not there. I would put heat tape on the pipes and insulate with the foam cover stuff. Heat tape dosnt have to run 24/7. If the system is blown out you may never need the heat tape but if it does freeze your just a generator start and prob 10-30min away from running water again.
If you water is very cold you can get alot of condensation on the cold water pipe in the summer. This could leed to moisture issues.
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zorro
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 11:53am
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Thanks
Yep all blown out yesterday as no idea when i will get back again..........depends on the snow really
Heat tape was my initial thought, but from what i can see that runs at around 7W per foot and to cover both hot/cold pipes I would need around 60'........that would not be good for the batteries unfortunately
Thats a good point about the cold water - my well is at 420' (seemingly that was the 1st water "hit"!!) and the water comes up REAL cold - so that is a good point about summer and moisture - never thought of that issue - thanks
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 11:53am - Edited by: gcrank1
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Have you been opening the 'high' faucet inside with the outside spigots open? That prevents an air lock that can keep all the water from running out.
You can also make up an adapter for that faucet to hook up an air tank to blow it down.
If you make draining easy enough it will be all over by the time you have a few other things packed up to go.
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 12:22pm
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I think what happened this weekend again was during the night, the pipes froze - I should have at least drained them back, so likely my fault entirely
I never thought it was that cold - clearly I was wrong!
I do have an adapter that goes onto the pipes and then attaches to my air tank to blow out the lines - that is when I realized there was a problem as when i tried to blow the lines, nothing came out
I then spent the next 3 hours under the cabin with a heater to get them cleared and then fully drained and blew out
I think going forward I just need to assume that anytime the temps drop below 0, my pipes are at risk of freezing
That’s why my initial thought was to try to insulate them in some way to at least prevent freezing down to a little lower than 0 degrees
Maybe that is not an option for me
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 01:24pm
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A few degrees between freeze or not is a judgement call for the given day/night 
I think you need to be anticipating freeze a least a couple degrees above freezing as your point of action.
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ICC
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 02:23pm
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When you use this during the freezing season, how much water do you use normally? I faced the same potential problem years back. The cabin was planned to be elevated a couple of feet. The location gets freezing temperatures for about 6 months of the year. No utility grid power. Small battery bank. Water supply is not a well, but is a buried cistern of several hundred gallons, so to pump from the cistern into the cabin encounters much the same problem of water sitting in pipe from the ground and into the cabin. Plus interior supply line distribution.
My solution involved installing a fresh water tank inside the cabin habitable space. I used a 15 gallon RV tank. The pump in the cistern does not freeze as it is submersed. The cistern does not freeze as it is buried with a foam sheet insulation blanket above the cistern a couple of feet under dirt. That pump drains any water in the line to the cabin when the pump is shut off. No water between frost line in the ground and the warm inside of the cabin means that line does not freeze.
The inside supply tank is emptied before leaving and refilled when we go back and heat the cabin. There is a drain line to run that water back into the cistern, so no waste.
All the pipes inside the cabin run in the heated space. Perhaps you can replumb some lines in spring to place them all within the heated envelope. All pipes in the heated space can either be gravity drained by use of solenoid-operated sprinkler valves at low points or where that was a problem because or having to loop over doors rather than run through uninsulated space under the floor, we blow them out with air pressure from a small 12 VDC compressor permanently mounted under the kitchen cabinets where the Shurflo pump, water heater and cold water tank are all located.
I also have isolation valves in the hot and cold lines that feed the shower. So, if we go in winter for only a couple of days we can use water at the kitchen sink but leave the bathroom and shower lines empty.
If you can apply some of those ideas to a retrofit in spring or summer that could increase your cold-weather enjoyment by a large factor.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 03:28pm
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Seems to me you only have a few options.
Drain your lines so they can't freeze
Heat your lines (including Insulation)
Keep water running so it won't freeze. (perhaps on a timer every hour or so).
For short trips I don't think any are worth it, I just haul in my water from the lake for winter months and live a bit more old school style. Sure running water is nice, but not worth the hassles for me. And I still need to watch my drain lines for freezing on cold days, and usually flush the shower with hot water (boiling kettle full) first before a quick shower with a portable water tank. So just something else to watch out for, if you solve your water coming in from freezing, you will also need to consider your water going out freezing issues.
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 03:39pm
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Public
Thanks ICC/FishHog
So my cabin has a well........410/420' deep - so the water comes out real cold, summer or winter
I have 2 x 20 Gallon water pressure tanks feeding the cabin - bathroom, kitchen and shower
The cabin sits off the ground by maybe 24-36" at places to allow for easy access underneath - thank god for that as I was able to get under and thaw out all the lines this weekend
The issue is that ALL OF THE PEX PIPES run under the cabin and are fully exposed and open
I have drain valves at the rear and the lines are supposedly angled to allow the water to drain out the valves when i open them up - when i tried that this weekend, the drain out valves where frozen and nothing could come out
We could not put any pipes inside the walls due to the vaulted ceiling and door heights/windows, etc. - we looked at it, but was not possible from what we could see during build out
There is no way that I can see to run the pipes indoors without some serious re-modelling - even then, not sure it would be possible
I may simply be stuck with what I have and as soon as any sign of below zero temps, shut off and blow out all the lines
I was just hoping for some ideas on how to potentially insulate these lines a bit to allow me to get through a "mild" below freezing temperature
Some of the guys in the area suggested the R38 insulation and then layer that with 1" ply - but that could create condensation issues I think and Brettny pointed that concern out
I dont see any way to heat the lines on batteries as the power use of the heat tape is too high for what I need
I think that I may just need to bring up my 6 Gallon jugs going forward when the cold kicks in - too much of a worry around freezing lines and potential that could create
The attached is a picture from last year, but lets you see the shape and the ceiling issue I have in terms of running pipes in the wall/ceiling, etc
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zorro
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 03:43pm
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FishHog
"........you will also need to consider your water going out freezing"
Exactly my issue this weekend - my drain lines/valves froze completely and then backed up along the PEX pipes and nothing could drain out
That was a big worry as I didnt want to leave on Sunday knowing all my lines were frozen
So spent hours under that cabin unfreezing all the lines and then immediately blowing them out
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 05:02pm
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Run the hot and cold right next to each other and use half the tape. Should be 30' then?
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zorro
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 05:37pm
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Now that is an idea, though would need a bit of replumbing as the H/C pipes are on opposite sides of a beam - should not be a major issue to replumb
That would take it down to around 200W based on 7W per foot (according to the het tape info)
Running on 8 x T105 LA batts and 3 x 340W panels, with 1500W inverter
I would need to figure that out in terms of use
But that sounds like a possibility
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travellerw
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 05:59pm - Edited by: travellerw
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You can get lower wattage heat tape. Some of it also has a built in "thermister" that turns the tape on just at freezing, so you can leave it plugged in.
This stuff is 2W/foot.
https://www.amazon.com/WRAP-Pipe-Heating-Cable-Built/dp/B0002YWMD2
If you put the 2 pipes together and insulate them well, I suspect you would eliminate the freezing problems.
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littlesalmon4
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 06:42pm
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You can always run the heat tape off a generator, saving your battery bank from depletion.
Plumbed together an insulated you may only need the generator occasionally in the morning to thaw a minor area that froze overnight. Just continue with regular draining when away.
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Notes
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 06:49pm
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Look into Frostex by Raychem. The heat cable is available in many wattages. It is also self regulated. No thermostat needed. As the surface temperature changes, the resistance changes in cable. I use it for commercial freezer condensate drain heat tape.
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 07:23pm
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Quoting: zorro The cabin sits off the ground by maybe 24-36" at places to allow for easy access underneath - thank god for that as I was able to get under and thaw out all the lines this weekend The issue is that ALL OF THE PEX PIPES run under the cabin and are fully exposed and open
Bury the lines all the way until they need to come up into the cabin. Put some foam board insulation over the pipe once in the trench before you backfill.
Now, you only need to protect/heat 3 feet of line instead of 30.
Else wise switch to a dry cabin during the shoulder seasons. Bring water with you. We can easily go a weekend on a 6 gallon jug.
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ICC
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2021 08:13pm
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Quoting: zorro We could not put any pipes inside the walls due to the vaulted ceiling and door heights/windows, etc. - we looked at it, but was not possible from what we could see during build out
I have one area where I built a chase, a boxed in 8 foot length that the pex runs through. This is built on the inside of an insulated exterior wall at the floor level. Mostly it is behind furniture and only protrudes an inch from the wall surface plus 1/2" for the baseboard thickness. It looks like a taller baseboard. That gives the pipes extra protection from the exterior cold side of the wall and allows the space to warm as the interior warms from ambient exterior temperature.
Over the years we did similar things to many homes we were hired to do remodels/repairs to.
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zorro
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# Posted: 2 Dec 2021 09:08am
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Some great ideas here - thanks very much
I like the low powered heat tape (never knew about that!) - going to look at that as it would only be around 120W for 2 full runs.......or if i can manage to get the pipes together with some changes, would only be around 60W
I also like the idea of dropping the pipes and burying them in the ground under the cabin - not too easy that one due to needing to did a trench under the confined space - but a great idea and will look at it
Going to look at all these ideas for the Spring time - too late now to do much
Thank you
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 2 Dec 2021 02:33pm
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You may also beable to run heat tape on 12v or what ever your battery voltage is.
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bc thunder
Member
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# Posted: 2 Dec 2021 02:52pm
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If you're looking for outside the box / crazy, I'm your man. Insulate, close off, and compost.......
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 2 Dec 2021 06:03pm
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Quoting: zorro I also like the idea of dropping the pipes and burying them in the ground under the cabin - not too easy that one due to needing to did a trench under the confined space - but a great idea and will look at it
Reroute them to run along the outside of the cabin in a trench and then turn under the cabin to where they need to come up into the cabin. That way you aren't trying to dig 30' of trench with 3-feet of head room.
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ArtifactJack
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2021 10:07am
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If you have enough power, put a timer on the pump, and have the water run thru the system every 30 minutes, and then back into the cistern. Might leave your faucets dripping also...
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2021 10:56am
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Timely..... -6 this morning froze up. I was up at 3am and turned on the water to run it a bit, worked fine. 6am... frozen. We have heat tape on the hoses and pipes in the "pump house" (an insulated box on the side of the cistern shed) the only piece without a heat tape is about an 18" section from the tank to where the hoses to the pump hook up. That section has a tee that extends outside the box for filling the cistern. That piece outside has a valve just outside the box... shut off... and that piece is wrapped in foam and fiberglass insulation. But that has in the past been the conduit for ice to build up and clog the line inside the box. Usually I turn on a little ceramic heater and a few minutes later the water is running. Well.... that heater is 600 miles away in our campervan! Town is nearly 70 miles round trip to get another one... if anyone in the closest town has one, otherwise over 100 miles round trip to Wal-Mart! Sucks to freeze up! Gotta get that tank under the cabin! Looking at the thermometer under there it is still 39F under the cabin.
Well coffee is drank so grab a bite and try to find exactly where it is frozen and get the water back on! At least we had filled our 2 winter tanks in the loft....one drinking water, the other for toilet flushing. Wish me luck! Don't want to run to town!!
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2021 12:16pm
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Build a fire over the froze up section?
Not metal pipes?
Lay some rocks, bricks, etc over the pipes then the fire?
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2021 01:13pm
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Thawed in the pump house and where it goes into the cabin. It was frozen where I thought it would be in the pump house but I got that thawed. Guessing it is frozen somewhere below the pump house where it goes into the soil, or on the other end where it come up. All PEX except in the boxes at each end and those are thawed. Might be "camping" using our loft tanks this winter, or..... bag it and go back to AZ....
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