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bobrok
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# Posted: 6 May 2011 12:35pm
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We still can't get in to our place due to weather, mud, etc., so I am making my to-do list in advance.
We have a EU200i generator that we use fairly frequently when our solar power runs down. Last year I built a shed about 25 feet downwind from the cabin. I know this is a very quiet generator but nevertheless I would like to run it inside the shed (doors closed) for the additional quiet it would afford and exhaust it to the outdoors at the back of the shed which is the furthest point from the cabin.
I don't think it will be an issue to run it inside but I want to throw this out for opinions
1) Most generator enclosures require a 30"-36" free space all around. I want to just let mine sit inside the shed (8' x8') in a corner and run. Of course I will keep it away from the walls and combustible material while running. I'll also cut an open-air vent in the back wall for exchange.
2) Will it affect the overall operation or the air flow of the exhaust if I extend it through the wall to the back of the shed by attaching a metal extension of some sort, like a piece of scrap auto exhaust pipe? Of course I will make a tight seal at the wall and at the point of exhaust.
3) I know playing around with back pressure on an exhaust can sometimes cause trouble, like on a car. Do you think I'd really compromise by little Honda by doing this? A neighbor runs a much larger generator in much the same fashion inside his shed and I haven't been told of any problems.
Any thoughts? Thanks.
bob
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bushbunkie
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# Posted: 6 May 2011 02:06pm
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Hey Bob,
Glad you asked the cabin clan...I'm planning to build a small (as possible) generator shack for my 2000Watt King Quiet Generator for the same reasons...want it even quieter and out of the elements.
I'm wondering what the minimum size would be for the shack (box).
I was thinking 6 x 6 floor and 6 ft high with a vent in the roof and foam insulation for soundproofing.
I'll wait along with you to see what folks say...
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rayyy
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# Posted: 6 May 2011 04:53pm
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I too am wanting to do this. I want to build a insulated box around my honda 2000. vent the exhaust out a pipe through the wall with a small fan plugged into the gen pulling in outside air to cool the engine.The whole object is to quiet it down as much as possible. I have an old steel cabinet to build this out of.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 6 May 2011 10:48pm
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Sometimes the easiest, most cost effective method is to buy a longer cord.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 7 May 2011 12:01am
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But seriously, the thing to be careful of is twofold.
One, it becomes more difficult to cool the running generator as the surrounding air temperature rises. The hotter it is outside the hotter it will get in the shed or generator compartment. The hotter the air that is being used to cool the sir cooled engine is the less effective cooling becomes.
Two, CO is odorless. I could be possible for an exhaust leak on a mal-tuned engine to allow CO to build up. If someone enters the shed and stays there for a few minutes that can be enough if the CO levels are high.
I would not run a generator in a shed or any other building unless the door was secured open at the very least. That sort of ruins the plan for keeping the noise in and the quiet out.
Are there others nearby; neighbors? If not perhaps a system to deflect the sound away from your own cabin would work? A lean to dug into a hillside would be ideal if the slope was oriented away from your own cabin.
A three sided "box" with the open side facing away could work if the sides were heavy enough so they would not reverberate. A half circle would be better, or something that approximates a parabola shape.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 7 May 2011 07:59am
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Hey MtnDon,
I had almost lost faith in you until I realized your first post was a joke! FUNNY! :-)
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to consider some alternatives especially in light of the ambient temperature concern. Of course you are in NM and I am in NY so there's a bit of a difference in temps to consider.
BTW I had forgotten to mention this but I thought you would really get a kick out f this. My neighbor who runs his generator in his shed...it sits right next to a hot water heater which in turn sits right next to a shower stall! Yup, they shower in the shed next to the generator! I don't knw if they shut it off while they use the shed, but I can just imagine what's going through your head right now.
Much thanks for your response.
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larry
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# Posted: 8 May 2011 09:46pm
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i have a relative who lives in the U.P. and runs his honda eb 5000's in a shed with a exhaust extension. the shed has a number of vents in it and sits 10 feet from the house. even on the quietest nights it is difficult to hear the gens running. they are also over 10 years old and have worked flawlessly but the shed is well vented.
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PlicketyCat
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# Posted: 9 May 2011 02:45am
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We need an insulated shed/box for our Honda 2000 and/or Kipor 3000 just so they'll stay running in the winter at 40 below... overheating is soooo not a problem ;) Since we plan to run it on our porch so we can easily bring it inside at night (when it's not running) to stay warm, we're looking at something like one of those big Rubbermaid deck boxes/cabinets with some spray foam insulation inside, an exhaust extension out the back, and an intake hose coiled around the exhaust extension to pre-warm the air as much as possible.
Since sound isn't really our problem (can't really hear it running i you're inside the house), we can just take it out of the box to run in the summer when it stays above freezing, but put it back in the box at night to keep it out of the elements.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 10 May 2011 12:12am
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>>>>>2) Will it affect the overall operation or the air flow of the exhaust if I extend it through the wall to the back of the shed by attaching a metal extension of some sort, like a piece of scrap auto exhaust pipe? Of course I will make a tight seal at the wall and at the point of exhaust.
3) I know playing around with back pressure on an exhaust can sometimes cause trouble, like on a car. Do you think I'd really compromise by little Honda by doing this? <<<<<
No problem at all with regards to back pressure. Use a 1 1/2" pipe and set it as close as you can to the honda exhaust, but not touching. It could be a couple feet long. The flow will get most of the exhaust out. And create a screened window (away from the house) for ventilation that is propped open while the generator is running.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 10 May 2011 03:53pm
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Quoting: TomChum No problem at all with regards to back pressure. Use a 1 1/2" pipe and set it as close as you can to the honda exhaust, but not touching. It could be a couple feet long. The flow will get most of the exhaust out. And create a screened window (away from the house) for ventilation that is propped open while the generator is running.
Tom, is there a reason why you suggest not making a direct connection to the generator's exhaust?
Granted, it is a tiny little pipe and on top of that it is rounded at the end which would make for a difficult connection, but I was going to make some sort of gasket for as tight a coupling as possible.
What's your reasoning for not making this connection?
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 10 May 2011 08:04pm
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Vibration, maybe. Hanging extra weight on the existing pipe and muffler could cause stress it was not designed for. ???
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TomChum
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# Posted: 10 May 2011 11:55pm - Edited by: TomChum
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>>What's your reasoning for not making this connection?<<
Quoting: MtnDon Vibration, maybe. Hanging extra weight on the existing pipe and muffler could cause stress it was not designed for. ???
Yes those are exactly my thoughts. Attaching to the generator makes it sort of permanent, which is another hassle.
The extension pipe will run cooler because it's sucking air. Success depends what the engine's exhaust outlet is like. For generators that have a screen, or a flat can with a bunch of holes, this might not work as well. If the exhaust has an outlet nozzle that creates focused velocity, this will work great.
You might consider screwing some plywood blocks onto the floor or shelf so the generator always drops into the correct position to align with the pipe.
I would start by setting the pipe such that there's about 1/4" ring of opening around for the flow to draw air in. Try moving it a little closer or farther, you may be able to judge how well it's sucking by using a mosquito punk and watch if it draws the smoke?
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2011 08:00pm
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Very good suggestions. Thanks. This will be tested and reported on if I ever get up there |8>(
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TWilliams
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2011 04:36pm
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Im planning on building my generator "house" out of stripped single bed matrices. There is no fabric or stuffing left on these, they are bare wood and springs. The plan is to make an "e" shaped enclosure ( no door just overlapped wall with space to walk through) with a spring set for the roof as well. Once this is screwed together, I'll plant fast growing ivy at the base of each of the frames and let them grow over the whole structure. The leaves of the ivy will disperse the sound as well as allow for good ventilation of the generator. We dont run the generator for long periods or even daily, so the exhaust will not kill the ivy. It will probably take a year to cover the entire structure but in the end It will be more pleasing to the eye than another shack on the property. If we do find that we still need more sound proofing we can line the structure with sound proofing styro panels or plant a ring of globe cedars around it. Again.. better than another shack
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bobrok
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2011 10:52am
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Quoting: TWilliams Im planning on building my generator "house" out of stripped single bed matrices. There is no fabric or stuffing left on these, they are bare wood and springs. The plan is to make an "e" shaped enclosure ( no door just overlapped wall with space to walk through) with a spring set for the roof as well. Once this is screwed together, I'll plant fast growing ivy at the base of each of the frames and let them grow over the whole structure. The leaves of the ivy will disperse the sound as well as allow for good ventilation of the generator. We dont run the generator for long periods or even daily, so the exhaust will not kill the ivy. It will probably take a year to cover the entire structure but in the end It will be more pleasing to the eye than another shack on the property. If we do find that we still need more sound proofing we can line the structure with sound proofing styro panels or plant a ring of globe cedars around it. Again.. better than another shack
TWilliams,
I think this is a very creative and clever idea and I hope it works well for you. Keep us posted on this, OK? Thanks.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2011 11:40am
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I like the idea of creating a mound of ivyto hide a generator. If you bury the cord too then its pretty secure to theft.
But I would use soft items for sound insulation, it seems to me that a box spring would make a good structure but it would not absorb sound as well as a top-mattress would. And regarding styrofoam insulation, if you snap with your finger on one side it is actually louder on the other side.
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trollbridge
Member
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# Posted: 12 Sep 2011 10:40pm
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bobrok,
I was wondering if you ever did get your generator shack built? If so,what did you end up doing? Did you pipe it like Tomchum suggested? How did it work? We need to do something for our generator also-if nothing else to protect it from the elements. Thanks!
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larryh
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# Posted: 13 Sep 2011 08:34am
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Very timely. I have been running my Honda EU 2000 the past few days to charge my part time use house battery, mostly to see how long it took and how much gas it used to run a 110 automotive charger. I have used previously they house electric or a 12 V line from the generator to clips on the battery. I think the 110 charger took longer and used more gas. I know I read the slower way is probably better though. I had the generator sitting behind the house and depending on which way the muffler end faced it would be more or less quiet. I have too wondered what the best way to conceal the sound more and get it out of the weather would be. I recall reading some time ago that sound does not travel well in a zig zag kind of path. Thus to reduce sound from exiting a location a set of baffle walls that make the path of sound to go from side to side a couple times would greatly reduce the sound travel while allowing for air and exhaust to leave. I also recall some where that if you use a extension flex pipe for your generator exhaust running it into a pile of large stones that would cover it a foot of so would allow for air to leave but not the sound due to the same baffle effect the stones would make.
As to taking the generator into the house. I had the same thoughts but I recall the Honda booklet suggesting it not be stored in a home. I think due to possible gas fumes and wondered what others did or had experienced with theirs. I see that PicketyCat takes hers in do others? I did put mine in a rear room the other night rather than carry the heavy unit to the garage. It made a noticeable smell in the house on that end for a while. I closed the door to that room finally. I have considered getting a small wagon to place the unit on which would be easily moved about that way, seems like a good idea some how?
Larry
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2011 09:31pm
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trollbridge,
I am just starting this project now and I will post my results. Been a little busy this summer and am behind in my cabin projects. This is now close to the top of my list. Anxious to git 'r' done!
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trollbridge
Member
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2011 10:03pm
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Yes bobrok...you had your daughters wedding...which for some reason everything else in life gets put on hold when there is a wedding!!!! HA!! How was your camping trip? Are you all relaxed now and ready to get back to work on your cabin???? Enjoy the work and I hope your generator becomes just a whisper :)
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bobrok
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# Posted: 23 Sep 2011 10:55pm
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Quoting: trollbridge Yes bobrok...you had your daughters wedding...which for some reason everything else in life gets put on hold when there is a wedding!!!! HA!! How was your camping trip? Are you all relaxed now and ready to get back to work on your cabin???? Enjoy the work and I hope your generator becomes just a whisper :)
Hi trollbridge,
Well, I am back in civilization after 3 weeks away from home and in the woods. (LOVED LOVED LOVED every minute of it, 'cept missed the wife greatly!)
The wedding was absolutely a blast... best wedding I have ever been to other that maybe my own (and I absolutely HATE going to weddings, this one was the exception I will say).
Wedding over...can relax and calm down (hyper-hyper) and I am just back from our father-son camping trip followed by two solo weeks at the cabin, whereupon I accomplished many tasks.
Among them: generator installed in shed! (see pix) Now I have to condition this by saying that I haven't fully tested everything. I didn't have time to install a CO2 detector to see how well the shed is vented. I actually didn't run the generator long enough to check this because I had plenty of solar power during my stay. As fall progresses and sunshine declines I'm sure I'll give it a more thorough test.
One thing I did notice was the reverberation sound of the generator coming from the shed and the heat. The small enclosure (8' x 8') enhances the sound. I'll have to get back to you when I do a more thorough test with the shed door closed on noise levels. I have considered insulating around the generator to muffle the noise but with all the heat it puts out I don't think that is adviseable. In fact, I'm considering installing an exhaust fan to keep the shed cooler. this is something I will have to play around with since I also store lake-pumped water in barrels in the shed and the heat will keep them from freezing. It's a trade-off.
So I don't have a whole lot to report but hopefully will be back up in the next few weeks (more clouds, less sun) and do a better test run and post those details.
clamp assembly interior
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exhaust at rear of shed
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another view of clamp
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 18 Oct 2011 10:34pm
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Well its a quiet evening at camp and we're finally in a position to give the generator a good few days of running after installing in the shed. Trying to do things one at a time in sequence, so as of now we have the generator running for several hours a night with a straight exhaust pipe to the rear of the shed. Last night I hit a high of 18 PPM on the CO2 readout. Today I installed weatherstripping around the shed door for the winter and am getting a high readout of 35 PPM. Big difference, all else being equal: temperature, run time, etc.
So I'd attribute this to the better sealing around the door, huh?
Next step is going to be deciding if I want to vent the shed for better air flow. I picked up a power duct vent for a buck at a garage sale recently thinking that I might install this for an exhaust vent at the gable. Right now I don't think I really need to vent. Its about 40° outside and 60° in the shed. Come summer I'll probably want to run a fan but right now its comfortable in there with no insulation
One thing I forgot to factor in with this project is the vibration and reverberation of the generator from within the shed (no insulation). Its really not all that bad but I guess I was expecting real quiet and am just getting a background hum. Don't really notice it with all the windows shut. Summertime might be different but of course we don't run it that much in the summer.
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trollbridge
Member
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# Posted: 18 Oct 2011 10:44pm
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Ahh, your at your cabin now? Lucky! Enjoy :)
Do you have any idea what temps are considered too cold to be running the generator in?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 18 Oct 2011 11:43pm
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Quoting: trollbridge what temps are considered too cold to be running the generator in?
I use 10W-30 synthetic oil and it helps starting it. When the temp drops below 20 F I close off a vent panel in the enclosure to keep it running warmer. In our setup I also adjust the inverter/charger program to let the generator run and warmup for 10 minutes before the inverter or battery charger will use power from the generator. Not all inverters have that option, but a delayed manual connection will do the same thing and let the engine warm up. Most air cooled engines will run too cold left as is in cold weather. I have an oil temp gauge I added and try to keep the oil somewhere between 180 and 225. It would be nice to be able to automate some shutters.
On a similar subject I also tape up a portion of the cooling system vents on the chainsaws and shredder when the temp drops to 20 F or less. Husqvarna sells a block off kit for their saws but duct tape and cardboard works well too.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2011 08:28am
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Well there's a possible reason for me to not vent the shed over the winter. Come summer I will re-test, or just leave the door open and deal with the noise.
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Martian
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2011 03:39pm
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Quoting: bobrok I picked up a power duct vent for a buck at a garage sale recently thinking that I might install this for an exhaust vent at the gable.
Since CO is heavier than air, it collects at the floor; you want the vent at floor level if you're trying to remove CO.
Tom
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2011 04:06pm
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Tom, you're right and thanks for the reminder :)
Perhaps a power vent at floor level for CO2 and air exchange louvers at gables to expel the warm air as necessary. Good thought.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2011 05:56pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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The molecular weight of air is 28.966
The molecular weight of CO is 28.011
So CO is really just a little lighter than air.
Click for Source:
CO is also very "mixable" in air, somewhat the same as Nitrogen (N2, 28.0134) and Oxygen (O2, 31.9988) the two largest components of air, are. They don't separate in a closed room. So the CO can be found at any level in the room.
The proper position for a CO detector is the ceiling or at least 6 feet from the floor level.
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Martian
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2011 06:18pm
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Just goes to show that I'm not too old to learn something. Thanks for enlightning me.
Tom
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2011 08:42pm - Edited by: bobrok
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Well, my detector is mounted in the correct position. This is good. So where is the best place to ventilate my shed? I don't want to experiment around and end up with more holes than walls! :)
Opinions? Power exhaust vent or just louver vents? Best location?
Thanks for the input.
BTW tonight's readings outside temp 50° inside shed temp 60° CO2 reading in the shed was an immediate 272PPM and an alarm even after a reset. Why the huge fluctuations from the previous two nights? Any idea? I'm wondering if it could be due to the fact that the generator/exhaust connection is not perfect. Recall that the Honda's have that tiny exhaust pipe surrounded by a bezel and then recessed within the plastic case. The 2" diameter exhaust pipe to the outside is touching the plastic part of the case but certainly not airtight. Probable cause???
IMPORTANT EDIT: I was misreading the detector tonight at 272. That was totally wrong and was a random number and alarm generated by the detector after the reset button is pushed as per the owners manual. I mistook that for the actual readout and took the batteries out and reinserted them a couple of times generating a few more false readouts. So the actual PPM # is at 13 tonight.
I apologize for the wrong info above. My only excuse is that its flippin' hard to conduct these tests while I'm trying to watch a good Game 1 of the World Series!!
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