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Tim_Ohio
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# Posted: 10 May 2021 04:04pm
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Hi, everyone.
I imagine this has been covered, but thought this might be the quickest way to get answers.
What I have is a small cabin that I've installed a small electric panel in and have wired all of my receptacles on two 20 amp breakers. There is a main breaker of 60 amp, which is the smallest I could find. There are two 20 amp breakers installed to power each side of the cabin.
One breaker is on one side of the panel, the other on the opposite side. The outlets on one side of the cabin are wired to one side of the panel, the outlets on the other side of the cabin to the other side of the panel. I've installed a 50 amp receptacle (male) on the outside of the cabin to receive the plug from the generator. It is wired into the panel as if it were a main power line coming into the cabin. One of the hot 120 volt wires goes to one side of the panel, the other 120 volt to the opposite side. I have the neutral wired to the neutral bar which splits and is on each side of the panel. The neutrals of my circuits go to either side of the neutral bars. I have separate ground bars screwed into the box on each side. The main ground is connected to one of them and the circuit grounds are connected to them.
They are wired to two earth ground rods six feet apart outside the cabin. The green bond screw is installed. Therefore, I have the grounds and the neutral tied together. My generator has a floating neutral. I am using the 240 volt, 30 amp twist lock outlet on the generator, switched to 240 volt power to serve the cabin. Everything works well, except it is loud. For the sake of it, I might mention the generator male receptacle on the cabin is 240 volt, 50 amp in case I decide to use a larger generator.
For now, I feed it with an adapter that allows me to
connect to the 240 volt, 30 amp outlet on the generator, but connects into the 240 volt, 50 amp inlet on the cabin.
Now for my question, does anyone know how I might add a pure/true sine wave charger + inverter with batteries to the system, which might switch from generator to battery power when the generator is turned off. I'd like to ultimately have the choice of
using the generator or the batteries without being
sloppy about the installation. In other words, I'd like it to be up to code and as safe as possible.
For your information, I've wired this to code and so that if, in the future, I'd like to bring power from the
either the utility company or from my barn (which is a quarter of a mile away) I'd be able to do it with only minor changes, such as removing the bonding
screw (if it is to be a sub panel, to separate the neutral and ground) For now, I'd like to just bring in a generator and batteries to use as necessary.
What are your thoughts? Is there a 240 volt pure/true sine wave inverter-charger out there
with an internal transfer switch that will do the job?
And, if so, can anyone suggest a way to put it all
together?
Even if it's not a charging type, that would be okay
too. I can charge batteries in my barn and take them up to the site. I know there are simpler ways to do this, but I wanted it to be set up in as safe a way as possible, not just rigged up.
Thanks,
Tim
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 10 May 2021 06:01pm
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Many people now are moving to "All In One" Solar Controller / Inverter / Charger" systems like MPP Solar, Growatt, Victron, LG, Tesla etc... These are modular components that are replaceable yet housed in a complete system. It simplifies a lot of extras that would need to be done with "component" based systems.
MPP Solar can do exactly what you need and they are a good value system MPP Solar Overview
There is an assortment of batteries available. From Lead Acid to Lithium Varieties. There are pros & cons to all of them and some pretty crazy pricing differences. Big Lead is heavy and not something you want to lug around every weekend, for instance. Budget, which rules far too much in our lives, is also another "guide stick" but one that must be rational as well with critical thinking.
I myself live offgrid in North Eastern Ontario, solar with 2000W panel, 4000W inverter 120V output only and both Heavy Lead & LiFePO4 Battery systems. Run my home & equipment but it's a more complex separate component based system as All In Ones weren't out when I started.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 10 May 2021 07:14pm
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Boy that all in one sounds good. But, if one component fails you're out the whole enchilada, right?
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 10 May 2021 07:53pm
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NO, the components inside are all swappable should it be required. A few screws & plug connectors and parts swap. They also do not die as easily as some would think.
MPP has both UL Listed and non UL listed and other certifications. Growatt is a Notch up in quality and slightly more in price, have more options which ate certified & listed. Then when you get up to Tier-1 like Victron, well, bigger buck and of course all the certs plus.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 10 May 2021 08:29pm
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Sounds even better. Wish I had known before I bought a new Epever a couple months ago.
I believe Steve, maybe someone else, advised not underestimating your needs when getting into solar. I, of course, learned the hard way, frying a few things on my way to my current capacity. And now that I seem to have more power than I consume, I'm thinking toaster, blender, TV..
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 10 May 2021 10:11pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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Tim, Ive read that there are units for the boating world that do what you want.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 04:25am - Edited by: Steve_S
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People underestimate their solar requirements largely because of the battery systems requirements. Partly, this is because when folks buy a 300W panel, the "assume" it produces 300W - 99.9% of the time the best you will ever see is 80% of that IF lucky. Clouds, dirt, exact angle etc all factor into it. It takes quite a bit of juice to charge batteries within a few short hours.
Also one thing that people miss which is obvious, they rarely consider the Lowest Sun Hour Days such as December - everyone by default think of nice sunny & clear June/July days... There is a big difference in # of hours of daylight and its strength across the seasons.
Solar can be complicated or it can be simple but it is always confusing because the technology is changing at an accelerating pace. What was the GOTO 5 years ago is NOT today, and what is Today's GOTO will not be in 5 years.
Final Thoughts...
Solar Panels. 5 Years ago the best you could fine were 300W. May 2021 you can buy 650W Panels from several companies and by 2022 1000W Panels will be available. There are tricks for Seasonal Compensation depending on your locality which help through the various seasons such as adjustable racks to full on tracking systems... Budget will will that choice battle. In many cases over pannelling or supplemental "winter panelling" is more cost effective, which sounds weird at first blush.
Battery Costs (Lithium & Other) are falling too. EV Demand has placed a serious demand on several chemistries. Fortunately LFP (LiFePO4) is not suffering the same issues, largely because it does not require Cobalt, Manganese and other expensive minerals. LFP is also the SAFEST of the Lithium Chemistries as well as the one that closely matched Lead Battery voltage profiles. LFP production is ramping and factories are being built, as an LFP variant is also headed towards EV Use. This is mostly happening within China at this time.
Here is a HUGE IRONY THOUGH.
Many Companies with support from assorted Nations are building Liuthium Battery Factories and opening new mines etc to support such when / where possible. This of course is good news for everyone.
BUT No announcements fo LFP Factories being made !
Now they can have these up faster & cheaper than others, they do not require the expensive & highly sought minerals like Cobalt. Many Natios already have sufficient supply of Lithium to support Manufacturing of LFP... EVEN AUSTRALIA, The world Largest Lithium Supplier / Exporter is only NOW just building Battery Factories but NOT for LFP ! LFP can be produced in limited quantities within these factories "potentially" but no such announcements have been made.
LFP is the Main GOTO Chemistry for ESS (Energy Storage Systems) used for residential & light commercial applications. You can actually have them "in your house" unlike other chemistries.
HINT (Passive Aggressive is also done by Governments)
In order to keep people from going OFF Grid or to Solar+Battery while reducing their "dependency / addiction" to Grid Power is NOT favourable to Government (for tax income) and to Big Power Co who likes being the "Power Dealer" to the addiction.
Consider: How many of your Politicians have, stocks & shares in Big Power Companies and the like, which they want to protect. Their Investment Portfolio's come FIRST above and beyond everything & everyone else. Do NOT be fooled into thinking otherwise.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 06:00am
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Quoting: Tim_Ohio What are your thoughts? Is there a 240 volt pure/true sine wave inverter-charger out there with an internal transfer switch that will do the job?
There are. What's your budget and what are you running?
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 10:21am
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My 2 cents... If you don't have any 240v loads, you can feed the panel with a 120v Inverter and create a plug with a jumper across both hot legs (or a custom adapter available from Amazon) or... just move 1 circuit to the other leg in the panel (so they are both on the same leg)
Either way, if you don't like the All-In-One route, you can install a 240v transfer switch in between the generator inlet and the panel and also feed that with the Inverter.
That being said, the All-In-One MPP's and GroWatt's are not much more expensive (if at all) then going with separate charge controller, inverter, transfer switch, & AC charger). Not to mention all the extra wiring and mounting space required.
If I was starting from scratch again at my cabin, I'd do the All-In-One and be very tempted to buy 2 and have one as a spare ready to go.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 11:47am
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Quoting: SCSJeff 240v loads, you can feed the panel with a 120v Inverter and create a plug with a jumper across both hot legs (or a custom adapter available from Amazon) or... just move 1 circuit to the other leg in the panel (so they are both on the same leg)
I thought about that but could cause issues when running the generator. You could only tun the generator to charge the batteries and run the whole place through the inverter though.
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 02:17pm
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Quoting: Brettny I thought about that but could cause issues when running the generator.
Yes, that's where the transfer switch comes into play. Sorry, my words didn't relay my thoughts 
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Tim_Ohio
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 03:08pm
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Thanks for all of your input. I set the cabin up with 240 volt serving the electric panel so that I would never have to go back and upgrade or change it as needed. At this time, I don't intend on adding anything that will utilize this much power, however, it's there if needed and makes it a more desirable sell in the future. Perhaps someone will want to drill a well and need the power for a pump or for some other reason, is what I figure. I also like the idea of having a full leg of 120 voltage on each side of my panel. I can easily isolate one side or balance a load, whatever that might be. Anyway, I looked at the Boating World site and it mostly concentrates on 12 Volt for boats, however there were some inverters. I went on to find that a site called InverterRUs had a wide variety of inverters and I found different models that would accept a 240 volt input that the inverter would pass through (and possibly clean up, I mean improve the modified square frequency to a pure sine wave frequency) while a generator source was feeding it, then would activate a relay to switch to the 12 volt battery supply when the generator source is shut down. In addition, the inverter would charge the battery source while the generator was in use. My only problem is, I'm hoping it is easily understood how to make the electrical connections. I'll be using a twist lock connection from the generator and the wiring from that connection to wire into the inverter/charger. I'll be using wires connected to the batteries to feed into the inverter/charger the 12 volt DC current. Then, from the inverter/charger, I'll be sending the AC current via a 3 wire plus ground to the twist lock connection going into the cabin, that normally would just have a generator connected.
If it goes as easily as I described it, I can go from noisy mode to quiet mode by simply turning off the generator and allowing the battery power to kick in.
I foresee the use of at least two deep cycle marine batteries wired in parallel for a little longer service.
All of this will be mounted on a pallet and transferred from a remote barn by my tractor, when I'm at the cabin for extended periods of time. Then, I'll just transport it back down where it can be locked up and not a target for theft. The barn is too far away and the terrain too problematic to take power into the cabin without the utility company involved or a
contractor, not to mention the cost.
Thanks again for all of your thoughtful responses.
Tim
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 03:30pm
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Quoting: SCSJeff Yes, that's where the transfer switch comes into play. Sorry, my words didn't relay my thoughts
I dont believe a transfer switch can take in 120v and supply 240v. I assume he wants to keep the two breakers on separate phases due to input amps needed.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 03:41pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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Seriously consider at least GC-2 6v batteries, 2 in series makes about a 220ah 12v bat-bank, 4 bats in a 2s/2p config makes about a 440ah 12v bat-bank.
They are much better suited to being 'storage' than the so-called 'marine deep cycle' which are just glorified starting batteries imo.
For instance, for about the same money:
2 x 12v 'marine' in parallel called 100ah each gives you a gross 200ah/100ah max net usable. Quite a few people are reporting real world ah's are about 80%; ie, the so-called 100ah are really delivering 80ish ah's. And they seem to 'wear out' about the fastest of the choices, 2-4years?
2 GC-2 6v in series gives you 220ish ahs gross/110ah net usable. They are certainly more heavy-duty/thicker plates and last quite well. They are flooded lead acid so the water needs to be checked, etc. but this is 100year old tech and well known. 4+ years of life?
Best net usable ah's come from the new generation LFP albeit at a price. A good 100ah LFP will have 80+ ah's net usable, not the 50% max of flooded lead/agms/etc.
That means one lighter LFP can pretty much equal 2 x '100 ah' marine batteries. You cant charge LFP below freezing, though. Reported to be 10year batteries. We will see, but if so, their cost amortized over time can equal or better the hd GC-2s.
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 09:40pm
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Quoting: Brettny I dont believe a transfer switch can take in 120v and supply 240v
Correct, but if you jump both legs, it can feed 120v to both sides of the panel. Obviously, this doesn't work for a 240v load (ie: deep well pump)
and yes, keeping the two circuits on separate legs does help balance the generator load, but doesn't make a difference for a 120v inverter feeding the panel (the inverter will trip before the amps are too high for either circuit)
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SCSJeff
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2021 09:43pm
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Quoting: gcrank1 Best net usable ah's come from the new generation LFP albeit at a price. A good 100ah LFP will have 80+ ah's net usable, not the 50% max of flooded lead/agms/etc.
I'd also like to add that LFP can charge quite a bit faster than lead acid and won't get destroyed if you accidentally drain it down to zero (you will lose lifetime charge cycles if this happens continuously)
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 12 May 2021 04:56am
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LFP Battery Packs:
12V requires 4 cells, 24V requires 8 & 48V requires 16.
12V/280AH/3.584kWh (X2 for 24V / X4 for 48V}
4x 280AH Grade-A MATCHED cells: $488 USD
4x 280AH Grade-A BULK cells: $364 USD
S&H DPP (Duties Taxes etc paid delivered to door) $280 USD to point in USA {S&H Guess, requires an actual quote, usually cheaper}
BMS: Battery Management System REQUIRED.
Can cost anywhere from $80.00 and up. Smart BMS with Active Balancing for a 4S (12V pack) is approximately $175-200 USD
Battleborn 12V/270Ah LiFePO4 Deep Cycle 8D Battery $2,800.00
DIY with Matched Cells:
4x cells: $488+280 S&H = $768 USD
1x SmartBMS = $250
1x 300A Fuse or Breaker. $40.
1x battery Terminal Posts. $25 a set
Box / Casing ? That depends on you, many options possible.
COST = $1083 USD as a DIY 12V/280AH
LINKS:
Supplier above, Known Good Reliable vendor
Shenzen Luyuan Tech (Alibaba) Battery Cells
Chargery SmartBMS BMS8T-300 $90 USD
Chargery 300A DCC SolidState Contactor $90 USD
*NB, Chargery site may throw invalid cert depending on browser being used
Battery Terminals: Summit Racing SUM-CSUMG1431 - Summit Racing® Bulkhead Cable Connectors $20 USD
BattleBorn 12V/270AH Battery
NOTE ON Chargery BMS
I put the info there, as this is the type I use myself for all of my battery packs. The BMS8T can handle a 4S (12V configuration) There are other good SmartBMS out there at various price points. This is a BMS that uses Relay/Contactor which is appropriate for High Amp demands. The DCC is Solid State and uses the least amount of power to operate.
How to assemble & setup your Battery Pack(s) ?
See attached PDF File
Hope it Helps and sheds some Light into the Shadows.
Steve
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 12 May 2021 05:33am
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He didnt say it was an inverter generator. Either way a 100ft extension cord and a 3 sided generator enclosure is far cheaper and will do what he wants...limit the generator noise.
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mj1angier
Member
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# Posted: 12 May 2021 09:21am - Edited by: mj1angier
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It sounds like you want to do what I did. Our cabin is wired like yours. I installed an inverter/ charger. When geeny is running it supplies the cabin and charges batteries. When genny is off, cabin is powered by batteries. Barrteries are also on a solar set up that fills them up when we are away or genny is off.
Our geeny is outside in a 4x4 fiberglass shipping contatiner that we open when it's running. Keeps it dry and secure but cuts down on noise. It's a Chapion 3200? so not very loud
Photo of install. I have in-cased it and cleaned up some wiring and added a power cut off to solar feed before controller.
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mj1angier
Member
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# Posted: 12 May 2021 09:23am
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This is how I finished it out
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 12 May 2021 09:31am
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Enclosure....Ive considered that, even for my little 1700/2000 Lil' Champ inv/gen. at the 100ish' run.
Straw bales as quick&clean 1st trial?
Have an old igloo doghouse from our long gone Husky. Thought about spray foaming the inside as a sound buffer and pointing the door away from the cabin. I could also spray-paint it camo for our environment.
If I do that I might even forget it is running......
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Tim_Ohio
Member
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# Posted: 13 May 2021 09:01am
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Mj1angier,
That looks like what I need to do. Can you send me more details about the components you used and exactly how you wired it?
Tim
glass_6417228@hotmail.com
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Sumitimpex
Member
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# Posted: 14 May 2021 09:23am
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 14 May 2021 09:36am
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Take a flying leap into a Spam can
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