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spikemarie
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# Posted: 1 May 2021 09:28pm
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to keep my pipes from freezing?
I was planning on winterizing my new small cabin (16 x 24, shed-style roof, with 16 foot high ceiling at the front wall, 8 foot high ceiling at the back wall, open cathedral-style ceiling, except for half-loft). However, I just found out that I can't blow out the pipes! What happened was, the guy who put in my septic tank also put in the water line and electric line from the well head to the cabin. Correction: water lines, plural. He was originally going to put in one line, but then suggested that, since I was putting in a frost-free water spigot by the well, that I should do two water lines. He said that way, if anything should happen to the frost-free, I'd still have water to the inside of the cabin. Okaaaay . . . It made sense to me, having no plumbing experience, so I had him do the two water lines. A few days later, the pump guy comes to set the pump in the well and he disagrees that the two water lines were the way to go. But the deed was already done, so he said he could put in a "T" connector, and everything would be okay. But then when it was all done, I asked him a bunch of questions about the pump and the pressure tank, etc. And then I asked, "So how do we blow out the pipes to winterize the cabin?" And he said, "Well, you CAN'T blow out the pipes because of the two water lines and the "T" connector." Imagine my chagrin!
So I guess first question is whether the pump guy is correct. Is it impossible to blow out pipes when there are two water lines and a "T" connector???
Second question, if this is true, will my 3 Cadet wall heaters I had installed be able to keep a cabin this size above 40 degrees in the winter to keep the pipes from freezing? And is it safe to have them on when we are away from the cabin for up to three weeks between visits? They are hard-wired in and were installed by a professional electrician. They don't have an "off" switch and at their lowest setting, they turn themselves on when the temperature dips below 40 degrees. I'm just wondering if it gets below zero (rare, but it does happen at least a few days every winter), will these 3 Cadets run and run and still not be able to maintain 40 degrees? They do have an overheat-turnoff feature.
So, very, very long question! Thanks for reading all the way through if you've made it here to the end. And any advice will be greatly appreciated. Any suggestions of an additional heating source I could add also appreciated, solar maybe?
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darz5150
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# Posted: 1 May 2021 10:18pm - Edited by: darz5150
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Quoting: spikemarie to keep my pipes from freezing
Quoting: spikemarie They are hard-wired in and were installed by a professional electrician.
Heat tape.
Sounds like you have grid power.
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spikemarie
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# Posted: 1 May 2021 10:42pm
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Yikes! I posted in the wrong category! Sorry about that. We are on the grid, but I tend to not think of it that way since it's a recreational cabin and we don't live there full-time.
I will look into the heat tape and ask my electrician if that would work in our situation. Thank you!
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darz5150
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# Posted: 1 May 2021 11:19pm
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ðŸ‘
I would think there is a simple solution for you.
The cost for heat tape compared to electric heat can be significant.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 2 May 2021 06:05am
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You would have to heat tape every piece of plumbing in the place. That's going to be alot more hastel than just blowing the system out. I dont see why you cant blow it out.
Is there a curb stop at the street?
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 2 May 2021 06:52am
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I am sure there is a way to blow it out. I winterize huge irrigation systems with miles of pipe and 100s of tees without issue. Could you post a diagram of the piping?
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 2 May 2021 07:20am - Edited by: Steve_S
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If I read the description correctly, you CAN install a Valve on the the water lines right after the T-Split and then your air-valve fitting.
Assuming you have a Pump that feeds a pressure tank which then feeds the cabin.
PressureTank->-{_Valve->-Air-Fitting___>to cabin.
Hopefully you plumbed using PEX which makes adding in bits a whole lot easier and simpler even if the fitting are slightly more costly. If plumbed with Copper then it's more effort but still not that bad of a job.
W/O Pressure tank would be similar.
Also do not forget that P-Traps and such should either be drained* or filled with Plumbing Antifreeze.
* Drained valves can and will allow sewer/septic gasses into the home which is Very BAD !
An excellent alternate to standard P-Traps are Waterless P-Traps by HepVo (I use a few of them and they are marvelous)
LINK: https://hepvo.com/hepvo-waterless-valve/
Heat Tape is a "bandaid" solution in general and works fine for "small runs" of pipe but it is NOT intended for long runs nor underground in conduit installations. Also many fail to note that Many Heat Tapes even thermostatically controlled ones are quite power hungry when they run and the longer they are the worse it is.
The Cadet & Similar Wall heaters without an Actual ON/OFF switch. There are some serious Lessons Learned on these. In Spring you will have to shut them OFF via the circuit breaker ! Even when off they pull a bit of power and can/will cycle on/off otherwise, even in mid summer and it adds up fast. These are more or less glorified Baseboard Heaters with fans and suffer similar energy waste issues. CORRECT Installation per our code (Ontario Canada) would dictate that each heater or "paired" heaters IF below the circuit limit be controlled by a dedicated AC circuit & Breaker. That may or may not apply to your locality.
Frost Free spigots LMAO.
Sorry I have to laugh because I learned a lesson on those darned things. THEY WORK - BUT - there is a caveat. These things actually place the Valving on the "inside" of your structre with the assumption that the structure is heated. With this in mind, it keeps the actual "valve" portion inside the building thereby keeping it from freezing. IF the building is not heated and subject to freezing inside, the valves will freeze & potentially even split.
My Powerhousehouse/pumphouse is heated and contains my Solar & Water system including the 50 Gallon pressure tank. The old heater in there fail one day and I hadn't noticed it till much later and the building more or less froze up. I was not surprised to see my Sediment Filter split in half from the ice and once I replaced that and got everything warmed up, thawed out & going again, I turned on the water system and GOOSH from the frost free tap mounted on the side of the Pumphouse, Ice cold water spraying everywhere ! (and me spewing Blue Air in 5 languages, with -35C temp outside - not happy).
Hope it helps, Good Luck.
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spikemarie
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# Posted: 3 May 2021 11:12am
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Hmm. I can't figure out how to reply to responses right after each response when multiple people have responded! So I'll do a group reply. First of all, thanks to everyone who responded to my question! Okay, here goes:
Brettny: Good point about having to heat tape all the plumbing in the cabin. That would be impossible, considering that some of the plumbing is under the concrete slab floor. Plus, I've read about heat tape being a fire hazard, which is especially bad for a recreational cabin. So heat tape is out. And no, there isn't a curb stop at the street.
Irrigationguy: Thanks for the reassurance! I hope my pump guy is wrong. I will attempt to upload a picture of the "T" connector . . . Okay, I think that did it. One of the black hoses is for the frost-free spigot out at the well head. The other black hose is for water for inside the cabin. The "T" connector, the water pressure tank, and the pump drive are all inside the cabin, in the loft, directly above the cabin bathroom. The electric tankless water heater will be installed there, too, in a couple of weeks.
SteveS: Thank you for the detailed information! I'm printing out your response to share with all concerned parties. Thanks especially for the info about the Hepvo P-trap. I wasn't thrilled about having to use a P-trap instead of a vent through the roof for the kitchen sink (the bathroom sink is vented through the roof), but the Hepvo sounds like it works really well.
My 3 Cadet heaters are indeed controlled by dedicated AC circuit and breakers. I have to turn them off by turning off their breakers. Originally, I had them installed to extend the fall season for us so that we could postpone blowing out the pipes and have water running to the cabin until mid-November or so. They weren't supposed to heat the whole cabin after it got seriously cold, but now I'm in this pickle (maybe) of not being able to winterize the cabin.
And the plumbing is PEX. I'm glad that helps.
And I don't blame you a bit for the "LMAO" response to the frost-frees! I hope I'll be laughing too one day! This project has been a comedy (tragedy?) of errors from Day 1. About 99 percent of it MY fault, too, just due to my sheer ignorance, and also due to "project creep." I wish I had stuck to my original plan, which was building a dry cabin with electric, then maybe doing a small, separate, plumbed bath house. But I fell victim to the "Wouldn't it be nice if . . . ?" and "The cabin will have a lot more resale value in the future if we . . . !" mental traps.
But! I'm so grateful to have found this forum to be able to share my latest blunders and dilemmas and I seriously, seriously appreciate all the feedback! Have a good day, everybody!
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 3 May 2021 05:12pm
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I think I understand what is going on now. How deep were the pipes buried and what is your frost depth?
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spikemarie
Member
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# Posted: 3 May 2021 05:28pm
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The pipes were buried six feet deep. The frost depth according to the decks.com map (https://www.decks.com/how-to/articles/deck-footing-frost-depth-map) is 30 inches.
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 3 May 2021 06:07pm
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I think the reason your well guy said it can’t be blown out is because with your hydrant fed from inside the house as apposed to teeing off the lateral in the yard the water between the well and house is sort of trapped. If the hydrant came direct off the lateral you could blow air into the system via the house and open the hydrant to clear the well lateral. As I see it you have a few options:
1-dig up lateral near the well head and attach hydrant direct to give an escape route for the water.
2-take apart the tee fitting inside and make it a cross with a removable plug where an air line can be inserted down into the well lateral to clear any water in the portion of the pipe that isn’t buried below the frost line (this will be a little messy)
3-you can pop the drop pipe off the pitiless adapter briefly to let it gravity drain back into the well.
4- pull pitless adapter and install sninfter valve just below it.
I would go with number 1 or 4
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spikemarie
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# Posted: 3 May 2021 06:20pm
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Thanks, Irrigation Guy! This must be along the lines of what he meant when he said he would have to pull the pump. Whenever he explained anything related to the pump, the technical terms and procedures went right over my head, making it hard to understand what he was trying to get across to me.
I'm meeting him at the cabin tomorrow. He has to fix a tiny leak that occurred under the "T" connector (shown in my picture), when we first got the water running out to the hydrant. I have printed your responses and will run them by him. Thank you very much!
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 3 May 2021 06:36pm - Edited by: Irrigation Guy
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Are you planing to winterize it once in fall and open in the spring or will you be visiting throughout the winter and opening and draining each visit?
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spikemarie
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# Posted: 3 May 2021 06:52pm
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I was planning to winterize just once in the fall and open up in the spring because I had a feeling winterizing and blowing out the pipes was kind of a big chore to do. But if there were an easy way to drain it each visit, that would be ideal.
I may still look into my options for keeping the cabin warm all winter long. Maybe down the road, set it up for some kind of solar-powered heat system.
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