| . 1 . 2 . >> |
| Author |
Message |
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Dec 2020 08:29pm
Reply
A bit of a rant and Im open for input. Anybody else been through this?
Regulations....good sense....expense....insurance, little of this off-grid stuff is 'simple'.
My blues started when I called my ins. co. to ask about coverage on the place we bought last summer. Gal asked what we have for heat. I say nothing yet, why? Because if you have a wood stove we cant insure your structure and contents.
Well, says I, we kinda like wood heat, not sure what we will do but since the cabin is kinda small and rough how about we exclude it from fire coverage and just go with liability, etc. That is ok. So we have been, as it is said,'self insured' on the cabin; ie, we will take or cover the loss out of our pocket.
Get to looking at installing any kind of heat and there are all kinds of codes, permits, reg's. If not an approved and inspected 'system' the ins. can deny to pay.
Wood stove needs a class A dbl or 3wall external chimney and all applicable firestop base and wall surfaces. My ins still wont cover though, no matter how good we did it. Then there's the thing that ya gotta like 'puttin up wood', or buy it; ie, wood aint free or cheap.
Looks like wood is out.
Fuel oil? Still a hot stack but I used to work with diesel and am a bit allergic to it and to me it stinks horribly.
Looks like fuel oil is out.
Off grid = elec heat is way OUT
That leaves propane. Still the install reg's, piping/manifold, tank, etc but a relatively cool stack in a 'B' or direct vent out a wall, easy to live with, but not that bone warming radiant heat we so love from a wood stove. Looks like the gas 'room heaters/furnaces' are pretty much convection; ie, warms the air not the surfaces across from the stove with infared. Stack and install is cheaper but the stoves are pricey. My ins. will cover though 'if done to code'.
Or, make the place a '3-season', forget the cold weather heating, use a non-vented wall propane heater to only cook the chill off (and never sleep with on) and just enjoy the place for what it is rather than throw pretty big money and work at. Btw, it isnt 'tight' or well insulated; it breathes pretty good. My guess is a decently built garage kit would be more airtight that this old-school rustic shack is (but we love it).
|
|
frankpaige
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Dec 2020 08:33pm
Reply
Think I would check on new insurance company.
Enjoy the cabin, it's a hoot.
|
|
Irrigation Guy
Member
|
# Posted: 12 Dec 2020 08:43pm
Reply
Have you looked at these direct vent stoves?
|
|
Gary O
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 02:13am
Reply
Quoting: gcrank1 So we have been, as it is said,'self insured' on the cabin; ie, we will take or cover the loss out of our pocket
That's what we did, living at our cabin for the last five years.
I did a cursory check with our insurance....too involved.
My thoughts, if our cabin was destroyed by fire, insurance folks would find a way to not cover our losses.
So, I came to the realization we'd rebuild.
Makes one pretty careful
|
|
Brettny
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 06:52am
Reply
I would also find another insurance company. I even had to shop around a bit for my full time home with wood stove installed to spec. No company is going to allow you to have a wood stove that the clearances and products arnt right for how your useing them. This is true with any heating source. I would be willing to bet they wouldnt even allow you to use a non vented buddy style heater.
So in the end is the initial cost of wood stopping you? There are cheaper types of triple wall/class A, Shasta vent is a cheaper brand and super pro another. Wood is really the only heat you can choose to pickup the phone and get delivered or make your self...then theres the wonderful heat it puts out.
|
|
FishHog
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 07:32am
Reply
agree, shop other insurance companies
|
|
Gary O
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 07:33am - Edited by: Gary O
Reply
Quoting: Brettny Wood is really the only heat you can choose to pickup the phone and get delivered or make your self
Yup
Split yerself, warms ya three times
Quoting: Brettny ...then theres the wonderful heat it puts out.
Oh, yeeeeahhhh
-37°F for three days straight, and the cabin stayed toasty warm
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 12:17pm
Reply
I 'know' its likely the perspective but the 36" clearance to combustable surfaces looks a might thin there, Gary.
Good point on the ins. co.'s fire inspector would deny a claim no matter what. It is a 'shack', shed, not to code in any way, shape or form. You know, the same kind of structure (even better than many) that families were raised in pre WWII and better than millions of people around the world today live in.
Still, safety is paramount. Ive lived/survived a lot in my almost 68years and being engulfed by flames is thankfully not one of them.
Those little direct vent cast gas stoves have the look to match our place, the more modern tin boxes not so much. Ive got a lead on a used Jotul Lillehammer(sp?), have to find out if it is LP or NG. Sadly it is only about 18K btu (wish it was 30K'ish and Ive read doesnt have a heat exchanger).
|
|
|
frankpaige
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 12:39pm
Reply
Ours is 12 x 18. My thought about insurance? If it burns, it burns. Say- la- v.
Cabin is small that a wood burner would suck up room that I didn't have. Went with wall mounted direct vent propane heater. Pre planning on tanks and usage keeps us warm till Marc. Then we can truck in another couple of tanks. Enjoy
|
|
silverwaterlady
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 01:33pm
Reply
If you are back in the bush even a little way. Not off a main road or in a remote area getting insured is impossible if you use a wood burning stove.
You can do a few things.
Build so cheap but up to code so that if it burns you can start over or use propane heat and build small (if allowed) insulate well and pay, pay, pay for propane forever.
Hopefully you can get at least a few 100 pound tanks installed and a propane truck down your road to fill them.
Or just use the cabin three seasons and get out when it starts to get so cold you are spending $35 a day to heat your cabin.
This entire response can be placed under “if I knew then what I know now how different our build would beâ€.
|
|
Gary O
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 02:17pm - Edited by: Gary O
Reply
Quoting: gcrank1 I 'know' its likely the perspective but the 36" clearance to combustable surfaces looks a might thin there, Gary.
Regs get a bit nuts
And, me? Well....I'm a renegade
So regs be damned
That Earth stove just plain rocked
We cooked all our meals on it
I knew the clearance issues, but the cabin was small.
That miniature wood rick was never an issue.
Hell, if the wood was icy, we'd even put some splits on top of the stove for a bit
I absolutely oved the functionality of that cabin
Goin' up there for Christmas...got some stuff to drop off
Y'all keep a fire
|
|
Nate R
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 03:21pm
Reply
I talked with the agent that has my home insurance as I started my build.
He told me that if it was off-grid, and wood stove only, I'd have a tough time. If I put in a propane heater, and used a wood stove as backup, that was a different story.
In the end, I'm connected to the power grid now, so it looks like it'll be electric resistance heating primarily and a wood stove as well. (Jotul F100)
|
|
BobW
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 03:30pm
Reply
A down side of wood heat is if the stove is not refilled, the fire will go out. This is not a bad problem if going to town for a day, but to even spend a weekend away during cold weather will lead to possible frozen water pipes.
Even when wood was my primary heat, I always had propane as a backup.
|
|
Bruces
Member
|
# Posted: 13 Dec 2020 03:42pm
Reply
I have a 1941 oil drip furnace ,I leave it on 24/7 ,costs me $6.50 day using diesel from the gas station ,camp is always warm ,no smell ,no fire worries ,cook all my meals on it ,huge pot of hot water on it at all times really happy I went this way .Only issue is it’s way oversized for my place ,I leave the windows open a foot even with the stove on the lowest setting ,but I am on the hunt for an oil drip fireplace ,should be less than half the btu ,less than half the size ,and glass front should give me some bonus light in the cabin .
|
|
Aklogcabin
Member
|
# Posted: 14 Dec 2020 10:30am
Reply
gcrank1
I have been researching the diesel drip stoves. No power needed. The newer ones are fairly small. Like 18†x 18†x 36†tall
|
|
WILL1E
Moderator
|
# Posted: 14 Dec 2020 11:14am
Reply
What about a pellet stove? I've been thinking that route once we build. I don't have alot of deadfall to deal with and i don't want to have to tend to a fire through the night. However, i like the smell of wood so that's why i'm leaning towards pellet.
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 14 Dec 2020 12:08pm
Reply
I used to run heavy equipment and much of my life was being a mechanic, by choice or necessity, thus in petro-chemicals quite a bit. Short story is Im allergic to diesel and need to be careful with anything petro.
Re. pellet stoves; quite a few folks have them here and pretty happy with them, But!, recently we have a shortage of pellets and the not unexpected higher prices. I suspect that with the lumber industry not producing as much waste that was maybe used to make the pellets the trickle-down is hitting home?
As was well said, wood is the only heat we can make ourselves and certainly epitomizes the 'off-grid' lifestyle.
SWLady, your points are well taken. Pretty soon here we will be 'snowed out' from access and the heat question will become moot. And we are realizing we are happier at the cabin in the more pleasant 3 seasons other than winter. With just enough heat to keep us comfortable at, say, 32*f and above we could probably draw the line.
One of our issues is the cath-ceiling where the heat, no matter how generated, fills first. I looked with interest at the 'heat-stick' someone posted recently about here. Neat concept!. It got me to thinking yesterday on my round trip (its only a lovely 45min. drive to our place) that if I take my antique (and non-epa) upright wood stove, run the 6" stovepipe up into the peak and put a 6" hot air duct fan in (or a smaller cap. cfm computer fan) that I can suck the risen heat out of the peak and back down into the stove body to use as a heat sink and distribution point; ie, open the air inlets to let the recovered heat out.
Certainly will maintain the look of an old stove in a rustic cabin, have NO need of the clearance issues as when used as a wood stove.
Along with that 'heat-sink' idea, I could have an ugly tin direct vent LP heater right behind the 'wood' stove getting it up to temp to radiate off.
Whadayathink?
|
|
Brettny
Member
|
# Posted: 14 Dec 2020 03:11pm
Reply
The whole tending the fire through out the night arguement goes away when you use a proper wood stove of a proper size. My full time home is heated primary with wood. I cant remember a single time in the last 6-7yrs that I woke up to tend the fire.
I did have a pellet stove for 1 year prior to my wood stove. That was the worst winter of my life and only one with a pellet stove. It was always loud with the blower on and I think I put 2 auger motors in that stove that winter. Not to mention the power consumption was quite large. Never again.
|
|
SCSJeff
Member
|
# Posted: 14 Dec 2020 03:35pm
Reply
My insurance company would not insure my cabin with having a wood stove as the primary heat and a direct vent heater as the secondary. So, I said "fine, the direct vent propane heater is the primary and the wood stove is secondary". Then, they insured it without an inspection...
|
|
Aklogcabin
Member
|
# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 10:13am - Edited by: Aklogcabin
Reply
We have been using a pellet stove for quite a few years. Love it. Don’t have any problems with finding pellets. Been getting them from HD. Something like $5.49 a bag. $249.00 a pallet of 50 bags .A bag a day average. Yes makes a noise with combustion fan . I asked my family a few times about the noise and they said used to it. Don’t notice it. Our heat bill went from near 500 bucks to under a hundred bucks a month heating a 2300 sq.ft home. We have a toyo stove in the upper level too. With the begs weighing 40# we can handle them. I don’t feel that electric is excessive. The inline fuse for power is only like 5 amp so it can’t be much.
I would recommend this type of heat to anyone. Parts can be an issue so I try to have extra parts on hand. Have replaced the fans once.
Winters in Ak can get long n cold.
Good luck n Merry Christmas
|
|
Nobadays
Member
|
# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 11:20am
Reply
...I said "fine, the direct vent propane heater is the primary and the wood stove is secondary".
When we were signing up with American Modern (who btw is no longer insuring cabins) they asked the heat source and I said wood... then they asked if we had another heat source and I said yes, propane. When we got the policy the agent had listed propane as the primary and wood as the backup source of heat. No inspection.
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 03:35pm - Edited by: gcrank1
Reply
I cant help but wonder what happens 'after the fire' when the investigation reveals the cause as the wood stove, chimney, etc. and the gas heat not on?
And short their 'inspection' if your area requires a permit and inspection, if not install by a cert. installer, and you have none of that I expect a denial of claim.
I remember buttoning up the walls and insulating my first build in Nov of '83, no stove, no chimney yet (was undecided on what to use). That Nov was cold, instant winter it seemed, but it was enclosed and a good time to insulate and get the boxcar siding interior on. Just a Coleman lantern was a blessing! And the walls did stop the cold wind..... We wanted to use the place so on a couple of nice days that Dec I put in a Canadian made (forget the maker) dbl wall chimney system, straight up from the loft floor to 3+' above the peak. Even though we were surrounded by tall Jack Pines it drew well. My first stove was an old upright 666 garage? drip oil burner. Fill the tank on the back (just try to keep from spilling any!) and let it burn. But it never really got the space 'hot'. and on some cold stays it took 2 fills....we finally bailed on deep winter use that year. So I used the rest of the winter to strip down and rebuild an ancient No.27 upright wood stove that the tin barrel was rotted out on way back in 1960 when Dad bought the farm. Id saved it as a kid and a good thing! The cast iron was all good, just rusty, and wire brushed, a new barrel cut and rolled by a friend in a sheet metal shop, re-blacked and furnace cemented/re-bolted it worked like a champ. We have sat in that cabin in shorts and t-shirts at -10*f and had to open the door to let heat out! Ive still got that stove. It could use a teardown, re-cement tighten up but 37ish years on it is still 'good'. 'Spose it should be in a museum and EPA would freak, as well as the ins. co. One thing for sure, it didnt have near the trouble getting lit up and going compared to the 1990ish Avalon early EPA air-tight. Seems like those stoves are more for a residence where you get em going and keep em going, not for an occasional use remote cabin where you would like to show up, get a fire going and actually get some real heat pumping out within 1/2hr.
|
|
ICC
Member
|
# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 07:05pm
Reply
All insurance underwriters will try to find reasons to not pay claims whether or not it is auto, health, liability, property loss, etc. They are in business to make money while selling the service. It won;'t matter how many years one has paid premiums for whatever coverage the buyer believes they have. If there is a claim and if the insurance company looks and finds a fault that can give them a legal means to deny the claim they probably will deny.
I believe most insurance adjusters will look very closely at a fire claim if they see a wood burning stove is present. Even a properly installed stove and chimney requires chimney maintenance. If that chimney is not kept clean it is only a matter of time for a problem to arise.
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 07:26pm - Edited by: gcrank1
Reply
Roger that ICC
Imo, if there is a fire and a wood stove was in use it wont matter how well it was installed the fact that the fire originated there will make it obvious and apparent that 'something was wrong'.
Denied!
After beating this around in my head, and the comments posted here, Im leaning toward properly installing a class A dbl wall chimney and setting up my wood stove with the proper clearances, firebreaks, etc. and just enjoying the wood heat SAFELY.
The expense of a good direct vent LP furnace is rather high, along with tank, piping, etc. and gas has its own safety issues too.
Either way I am pretty well convinced that 'insurance' for loss is better covered by me than paying a company to accept the risk then using any excuse to deny the claim if possible.
|
|
Champ7ac
Member
|
# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 08:26pm
Reply
We have a 12 x 24 cabin made out of concrete block, built on a cement slab. The outside is wrapped with a cement board product, much like Hardy board.
We did the same dance with our insurance company.
I ended up installing a direct vent propane heater, and have had no regrets. Two 100 lb tanks and we are set for winter.
As much as I enjoyed having a wood stove before, it is nice to have our cabin thermostatically controlled with an even temperature.
|
|
Irrigation Guy
Member
|
# Posted: 15 Dec 2020 09:58pm
Reply
Quoting: Nobadays When we were signing up with American Modern (who btw is no longer insuring cabins) they asked the heat source and I said wood... then they asked if we had another heat source and I said yes, propane. When we got the policy the agent had listed propane as the primary and wood as the backup source of heat. No inspection.
I have insurance for my cabin with them, they wrote the policy this year. What makes you say they don’t insure cabins anymore?
|
|
Brettny
Member
|
# Posted: 16 Dec 2020 07:10am
Reply
Gcrank why would you want to install a wood stove with out proper clearances to begin with? Believe me loosing a few inches of living space for the piece of mind would be my. Choice. Single wall usualy needs the most clearance to combustibles. This can be cut back with the addition of a heat shield at the back of the pipe made from another section of single wall or a non combustible rear hearth made from stone, tile or metal. There are many ways to cut back on large clearances.
As for needing to have a gas/oil fires heater to achieve an even temp like champ said...that's very un true. My wood stove actualy keeps a better temp than my oil fired hot air furnace. Again its prob due to poor wood stove quality and no thermostatic air intake for the stove. You cant put in a $500 box wood stove and call all wood stoves to crude and dont heat evenly.
|
|
ICC
Member
|
# Posted: 16 Dec 2020 09:13am
Reply
No matter how well built a wood stove is, no matter how well the stove will carry a fire overnight, no matter how well the thermostatic air inlet works, none of that does me any good if I want to be absent for a whole day, or longer. That is one of the reasons an insurance company that will let you have a wood stove will still not write a policy unless you have some heat source that will run itself in normal day to day use. It is also why I have never wanted to rely solely on a wood stove. I like to take trips away from home for days and weeks at a time.
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 16 Dec 2020 10:06am
Reply
Brett, in no way have I been advocating for or considering an install without the proper, safe clearances.
|
|
Brettny
Member
|
# Posted: 16 Dec 2020 10:57am
Reply
Quoting: ICC No matter how well built a wood stove is, no matter how well the stove will carry a fire overnight, no matter how well the thermostatic air inlet works, none of that does me any good if I want to be absent for a whole day, or longer. That is one of the reasons an insurance company that will let you have a wood stove will still not write a policy unless you have some heat source that will run itself in normal day to day use. It is also why I have never wanted to rely solely on a wood stove
Very well put ICC. For a primary residence you def need a secondary no daily maintenance heat source.
|
|
| . 1 . 2 . >> |
