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spencerin
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# Posted: 26 Nov 2019 11:12pm
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Ok, so I can't decide between electric baseboard or direct vent propane heat. Each has its pros and cons, but the main con for me with electric baseboard is potential cost. I can get the right BTUs (~15,000) in 120V (can't do a higher voltage anyway), but I don't want to install them and then find my power bill go thru the roof. My place uses $0.09/kwh as a base rate, and it's located in climate zone 3.
I'm sure some of you use electric baseboard heat. What's your experience as far as cost is concerned? Burdensome? Reasonable? What are your bills like in the winter months with it as your only source of heat?
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darz5150
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# Posted: 26 Nov 2019 11:42pm
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Something else to consider besides cost is. Power outages. Some/most propane heaters will still work if the power goes out. Not so much with electric heat.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 09:08am
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Quoting: spencerin (can't do a higher voltage anyway)
why can't you do higher voltage? if you are hooked to the grind you are being supplied with 120/240 single phase.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 09:51am
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You really need to do your own cost per btu calculator. No one elses electric or propane heat is going to be the same as yours.
They both have there own pros and cons. Just some are winter acess, does the propane heater work in a power outage, are you living there, cost of a propane tank and the list goes on.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 09:57am - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Are you in Canada? How many square feet are you heating, is your home insulated? Are you back in the bush or close to a main highway? Access to your home for the fire department if need be? Living there full time? If not full time do you need to leave the heat on? Is your cabin insured?
Sorry to be so inquisitive but I can’t give you a answer otherwise.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 10:25am
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Gah, I always leave out pertinent details on accident.....
Southern IN (USA)/climate zone 3, 336 sq. ft., average insulation and air tightness, and not living there full time (I'd probably spend 2 weekends there per month).
I'm assuming I can't do higher voltage because the cabin is already built, with access to 120V outlets only right now.....
My main concern right now is the monthly electric bill. I'd like to know what others' experiences are on this.....
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 10:33am
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Simply put, go to the dump and you'll find a lot of junked baseboard heaters, people are chucking them cause they cost a lot to heat rooms / homes with overall. A small one in a bathroom sized room for supplemental heat is one thing but for main heating, no. If on solar power, certainly not !
Mini-Duct systems can do heating & cooling and are energy efficient in comparison but cost more. Direct Vent propane heating if done right can also be very efficient and the power for it can be supplied through a small UPS if you have unreliable power.
How efficient is the building, how big a space you want to heat and other factors are important in determining which is suitable & more efficient in the long run. Things like having to heat an area where you have potentially unreliable power are also an important consideration.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 10:51am
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one thing to remember with electric base boards is they are 100% efficient. Not wasted heat up the flue
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 11:48am
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For electric baseboard I'm betting you are going to need a lot of them . You do want to wire these for 220 and not 110. This isn't the sort of thing you plug into 110 outlets. You will be pulling a lot of amps.
I'm in Upstate, NY.
While I've never seen these in a cabin installation I've witness many of these in houses that wanted to heat an enclosed porch. Normally the rooms have been ringed with them. I never seen one of these installation work worth a darn.
If you want to go electric a mini split heat pump may be a better option. But your cheapest and easiest option is going to be a direct vent propane heater. Make sure you have a couple good working CO detectors. Seems you didn't consider a wood stove.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 12:17pm
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Quoting: spencerin assuming I can't do higher voltage because the cabin is already built, with access to 120V outlets only right now.....
This does not mean you dont have 240v available. Do you have a power meter on the cabin? If so your pannel has 240v. The only possibly way you would only have 120v available is if your cabins power comes from a pannel in another building or on a power pole some where else.
A friends family has owned a seasonal lake house since the early 80s. They have electric heat. Dont have to fill a propane tank, dont have to clean the driveway and dont have to check the propane level. You can also very easily just heat one room..unless your going to put a propane heater in each room.
You need to keep the heat pump condensor clear of snow.
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jhp
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 03:31pm
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If cost is your only concern between the two technologies...you're asking the wrong questions.
A BTU is a BTU, doesn't matter if it's electric, propane or anything else.
Figure out your cost per BTU on the supply side first:
http://www.maxmcarter.com/fuels/fuelscalc.html
In a lot of cases people think electric heat is expensive but often the cost is actually cheaper than other fuels per BTU. The perceived cost of the electric bill "going through the roof" is what stops a lot of people from considering electric - not the actual hard costs and then comparing more than one solution. At the end of the day you're paying for those BTUs one way or another - either to the power company, the guy who drives the propane truck, or in your sweat by cutting and chopping wood.
After that you start weighing the pros and cons of convenience of one type vs another, initial infrastructure purchase cost, and how you utilize the space.
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jhp
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 03:41pm - Edited by: jhp
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Also I think you're way low on the BTU needed. I just used one generic calculator and a 14x24 building with 9' ceilings and average insulation would need 25k BTU to raise the temperature 60 degrees.
15k BTU output will only get you about a 40 degree temperature rise so assuming no heat loss whatsoever (impossible) you will need to run that 15k heater 24x7 to maintain any sort of comfortable temperature (IMO) assuming an average low temp of 20F in the winter for your area.
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hattie
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 05:56pm
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We have baseboard electric heat in our place and I love it. We have thermostats for various rooms so the ones we don't use much (laundry room) are kept at a very low temperature. The rooms we live in more are kept at a more comfortable temperature. There is no maintenance and if one goes south on you, they are inexpensive to replace (not that we have ever had to do that, however). I like that the electric heat is clean and 100% efficient.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 06:29pm - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Not being in Canada is going to save you a lot of money.
My SIL had a big old house and heat it with baseboard it cost her at least $650 per month. This was about 15 years ago. She passed away. But before she did she moved into a beautiful senior apartment. Her rent was the same or less as her heat bill!
My nephew had bills of $400 per month he had to put in a wood burning stove.
Most of the people I know in Canada that live off a main highway have wood heat but they also have baseboard which they never turn on because it costs so much. They have to have the baseboards or they can’t get insured.
I wouldn’t do propane because it’s expensive and hauling the tanks is a pain. Unfortunately that’s what we have because we couldn’t get insurance if we had a wood burning stove and we are off grid so no electric. Our cabin is seasonal and since we added a three season porch to the front this year I noticed it stayed much warmer in our log cabin. We have spray foam in the ceiling and floors. If it got too cold inside I just turned the oven on and baked something. So we didn’t use our propane stove this fall.
I like Hattie’s set up that’s what we would have done if we had electric.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 07:46pm
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Quoting: Brettny A friends family has owned a seasonal lake house since the early 80s. They have electric heat. Dont have to fill a propane tank, dont have to clean the driveway and dont have to check the propane level. You can also very easily just heat one room..unless your going to put a propane heater in each room.
Bingo, heating a single room was going to be my comment too. You can heat all, just leave the unoccupied ones set to 55 or so to keep pipes flowing.
Also, wiring, be a snap, run power to each unit under floor, stub up to each through the floor, its located near the floor, so a short chunk of conduit, be clean and sanitary. I wouldn't do it if you didn't have 220VAC, but I bet you do.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 09:48pm
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That cost-per-BTU calculator says electric is cheaper for me based on prevailing rates in my area, but they're not too far apart.
Am I right in thinking that since electric is 100% efficient, a 15,000 BTU rating would yield 15,000 BTUs in actual heat, whereas a propane heater advertised as 15,000 BTU would yield 12,000 BTUs in actual heat (80% efficiency rating)?
The calculators I've used have returned an estimate of no more than 13,000 BTU for my application. I figure rounding up to 15,000 BTU would have me covered. But again, there's estimates and then there's the real world.
I could probably do 240V, yes, but P=IV, so what's the advantage of using a higher voltage other than a lower amp draw? Pretty certain the outlet fuses can handle a 12.5A draw. I would think the rate of cost would be the same regardless.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 09:58pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: spencerin Pretty certain the outlet fuses can handle a 12.5A draw
On a 15 amp circuit, doesnt leave much for anything else.
You can use 220V, probably 12 gauge wire, good to go.
I found this on a website:
Divide the power specified on the label by its operating voltage to obtain the maximum current draw. If you can plug the heater into a regular wall outlet, the specified voltage should be 120 volts. Thus, the current draw for a 1,500-watt heater is 12.5 amps. Multiply the value for current by 125 percent to determine the size of the breaker you need for the heater. A 1500-watt heater on a 120-volt circuit thus needs a breaker of 15.6 amps. Because a 15-amp breaker would be too small, you need a breaker with the next highest rating, which is 20 amps.
And you cant put a 20A breaker in a 15A circuit unless its 12AWG wire. 15A circuits are almost always 14AWG wire.
If this was my scenario, I'd probably do electric baseboard heat, 220V with thermostat on the end of the baseboard to keep it simple.
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old243
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 11:04pm
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A rough rule of thumb, in a well insulated home , is 1000 watts of heat for 100 square feet of area. I am in Canada so you might get away with less. The fact that you can shut off areas , that you are not using, or requiring as high temperature. Our home is completely wired for baseboards, yet with the exception of my , man cave. We don't use them. But could in an emergency. Have natual gas furnace, and a wood stove that is on all winter. If you are just going to use it 2 weekends a month, and can shut off and drain your water, in the fall, electric heat would probably work well. Your cabin is also quite small 336 sq ft. Good luck old243
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spencerin
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2019 11:48pm
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Don't know the AWG of my wiring, but pretty certain the fuses are 20A as "20" is stamped into the switches on these circuits in the service panel. I'm assuming the wiring is gauged accordingly.
Seems like the "infrastructure" is there, so the practicality is the unknown. If 1KW per 100 sq. ft. is the rule of thumb, that yields roughly a 3.4KW requirement. Three (3) 1.5KW heaters, nominally speaking, should cover it, both from a KW and a BTU requirement.
But, again, that's the math, and then there's the real world.....
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Type6ix
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2019 08:04am
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My 400 sq. ft. cabin in Upstate NY has electric heat. I think it would be expensive if I lived there full time but for seasonal use it is fine. No hassle. I keep a small propane "Mr.Buddy" heater in the shed in case I loose power in an emergency.
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old243
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2019 09:03pm
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The size of your main service breaker will govern how much you can add. 4 kw of heat will draw approximately 20 amps if your heaters are hooked 240 volts. You will have some diversity as the load will vary. Don't know the layout of you cabin. If you have 100 sq foot bedrooms , probably 750 w or 1000w would be enough. A small bathroom 500 or 750w. If the kitchen and sitting room are common , probably a wall mounted thermostat , on an inside wall would work well. You will probably need 2 circuits , this will require 2 double pole breakers, 20 amp. and take up 4 spaces in your panel. You would wire the circuits with 12-2 wire. Good luck old243
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Princelake
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2019 06:28am
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Instead of baseboard heat what about a ductless heat pump and you'll get air conditioning in the summer to?
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Brettny
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2019 07:05am
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Take a picture of your power panel with the front cover off and post it.
Heat pumps and mini splits are nice...but in the real cold temps your still going to need an electric heating element. With how cheap baseboard electric heaters are theres hardly a reason not to have one atleast near inportant water filled items.
Anyone know if a heat pump needs to be reset if you loose power?
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Fanman
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2019 09:25am
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Quoting: Steve_S Direct Vent propane heating if done right can also be very efficient and the power for it can be supplied through a small UPS if you have unreliable power.
Most DV propane heaters require no electricity.
Our cabin is only wood/coal, but our house in CT is heated by three DV propane heaters, a 27K woodstove looking one in the living room and small 7.5K wall mount heaters in each of the two back bedrooms. None require electricity (the one in the living room has a timer thermostat which requires a battery). When the power went out for a week after winter storms, we stayed nice and warm.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2019 03:56pm - Edited by: spencerin
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It's a studio layout - the bathroom is 48 sq. ft. and the remaining 228 sq. ft. is open to everything else. The ceiling in the main room peaks at 13.5'.
Interestingly, I found this from my electricity provider (link below), and p. 10 seems to be providing some relevant info, although I'm not exactly sure what it's telling me.....but the conservative factor that approximates my cabin's location and construction type for resistance heating jives with the rule of thumb old243 recommended.
There's a lot of smart people on here - do you agree that this is more or less telling me/us how to proceed with sizing up a system?
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old243
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# Posted: 2 Dec 2019 09:08am
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Spenserin. I am sure all the folks who responded, were happy to give our 2 cents worth. There is a wealth of knowledge , on this site. Most times , all you have to do is ask. Good luck with your project. old 243
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jhp
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# Posted: 2 Dec 2019 09:29am
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I think that PDF you linked is assuming 2019 standards for insulation which might be a much higher overall R-value than you have in your cabin. It almost certainly is not accounting for 13.5' ceilings, probably 8' which is a lot of unaccounted for BTU needed.
I think electric heat will work okay for you, but at 15k you will be cold unless you set the heat to 50 and leave it on September through April. If you turn it way down and wait for everything to warm up you will probably be waiting most of your weekend for that to happen.
Imagine the air temp being 70 degrees but the couch, the bed, the floor, and everything else being 40 and taking 36 hours to warm up to 70.
The couple hundred dollars you would save by trying to stick to 15k BTU would not be worth the loss in comfort. I would recommend doing the baseboard heaters to keep a baseline temperature all winter and but also get a 25k heater to put on blast to get the area up to temp a lot faster.
For the $500 it would cost for the 25k heater and an electrician to install it, it would be well worth it IMO.
I'd rather have way more heat than needed and turn down the thermostat than spend more than 10 minutes of my weekend being cold while I'm trying to be on cabin time.
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