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kenneth
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 11:53am
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I have a stack of 54 20' hemlock logs ranging from 16" to 19" in diameter which are estimated to weigh from 1400 - 2000 lb. I have been looking for a machine to lift and place these logs on my walls (for a log cabin). I've been looking at midi excavators that can lift 4000 lb (such as the Bobcat E42 E45) and wondered if anyone has any experience using such machines. An equipment salesman didn't think they would have the lateral stability. I prefer a mini/midi excavator to a backhoe because the market is so robust for the excavators and such a machine would be easy to resell in say 3 years.
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 12:24pm
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would it not be possible to only lift about half the log at a time.? Get one side in position, then reset and lift the other side?
A mini might lift or move 2K, but getting it that high up in one go might be beyond its capacity.
tim
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Greenland South
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 12:45pm
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Why not read the specs as provided by the manufacturer. More accurate than a salesman’s opinion.
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kenneth
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 12:54pm
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I was hoping someone had experience using a mini-excavator. The specs suggest certain models can lift that much but I'm concerned about tipping over sideways. Can't really lift one end at a time since I'm by myself and securing one end while I lift the other would be troublesome (but interesting idea!). I'm checking on the specs for track widths now.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 01:53pm
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need to look at the lifting specs as you get further away the load rating/ tip rating goes down. You may be able to lift 4000 lbs close to the cab but once you are stretched out it my only be 1000 lbs. How high are you lifting them, that will play into it also.
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paulz
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 04:43pm
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I just cut and bucked a huge tree into 20 ft. lengths yesterday. 3ft. at the base down to abut 2 eighty feet later. Lifted them onto my mill with my old backhoe. It would barely lift the big one, the others high enough for the mill but wouldn't get them on top of a wall. I did lift a 20' 12" log on top of my gate poles about 15 feet up. It's 50hp. One nice thing about it, in addition to the front loader, are the outriggers on the sides that keep it stable when moving things left to right. No experience with the mini-excavators, which also have their advantages. Street tread vs. tracks also to be considered.
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kenneth
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 04:56pm
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That says a lot about the power of the good old backhoe/loader. What a tree! I agree about the utility of the outriggers. And that's exactly why the mini excavator is more mobile! I'm hoping to hear similar working experience from a mini excavator owner.
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paulz
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# Posted: 12 Oct 2017 05:39pm
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The outriggers lift out of the way completely but yeah, compared to an excavator it's a barge.
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old243
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# Posted: 14 Oct 2017 09:00pm
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I bought an older Komatsu, mini hoe several years ago. The track width, is probably 4 feet outside. There is no way it could lift that much. Probably 700 pounds. That being said, they are as handy as a pocket in a shirt. Should have had one years ago. If you can find a used one with a lifting capability , to suit your job, to purchase or lease. You will find them very handy. The grader blade is excellent for landscaping. You will use it for a multitude of chores. old243
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 16 Oct 2017 04:00am
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Running an excavator is a learned experience, like any piece of equipment. The front blade is used like outriggers on a back hoe. It provides stability. I would agree to read manufacturing specification to determine the size of the unit you desire to purchase. One "experiment" could be to just rent one for a weekend or a few days of the "size" you are considering and see if it will preform the desired task. You can drag a very heavy log with one of these, only picking up one end and then, set the machine to the desired location and put the blade down for stability and pick up your load. height of lift will go up as size of the the machine increases. Also your site location can be a factor is your machine selection - are you a "flat lander" with a nice level building site or are you a "mountain goat" with a steep side slope at the building site? lot of unknown facts on what to recommend other that get a large enough machine to do the work desired. The little 80-100 hp excavators will preform a great deal of tasks.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 16 Oct 2017 08:07am
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Wouldn't a Gin Pole with a good sized electric winch do the job ?
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 16 Oct 2017 08:18pm
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And a boom truck would be ideal as that is the purpose upon which they are manufactured and used. Or even a material handler would be ideal. ( Ever watch the old grey headed guy and his material handler take down and reassemble those log homes on the DYI network on "Barn builders"?
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kenneth
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2017 10:36am
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A gin and boom would surely work if I could move the logs into position. I could also erect a gin and boom in my yard to lift the logs onto a heavy duty trailer. I guess I'm lazy in not wanting to engineer those machines (as much fun as it would be) and I'm also a little wary should such a rig collapse. A suitable excavator is an already engineered gin and boom on wheels. I visited the dealer yesterday and we used a 2000 lb bucket as a test load with an excavator one model beyond what I was considering (based on published lift capacity). The machine couldn't lift the load without tipping.
But I haven't given up on the excavator. A Hitachi EX60 was just posted; I tried it out and it has a massive counterweight and the boom mounted back, aside the cab (most are mounted beneath the front edge of the cab). These features allow it to lift 3000 lb at full extension! I will test the machine on my logs when it's delivered and report on the results.
I don't know how many hours I've spent 'shopping' and poring over published lift numbers. What a waste of time. And most equipment salesmen aren't much help, nor was the Bobcat company (for one) responsive. The responses here from people with real experience and testing machines on real loads is the real way to solve these problems.
I'm guessing not many people in this forum are building log cabins?
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Malamute
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2017 03:29pm - Edited by: Malamute
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I dont know the weight of hemlock logs. How reliable is your weight estimates?
I built a cabin with dead standing, dry lodgepole pine, 14-16" butts, and up to 40-45 ft long (most about 12-14" butts, 36' long). I did it all with a come-a-long rope hand winch and home made triangular frame. An old cabin builder said he thought my logs may be 800-900 lbs.
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kenneth
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2017 03:42pm
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That's very impressive. How did you get the logs into position? How was the triangular frame used--as a ramp or as a boom? And you did this by yourself, placing 36-45' logs? Wow!
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Malamute
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2017 03:58pm - Edited by: Malamute
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I made the frame as a standing triangle front, with a triangular base on steel wheeled castors. I hung a snatch block on the tip of the backbone of the frame, and the hand winch was attached farther back on the backbone where i could work it comfortably(relative term) I had a steel widget made for the tip of the backbone to hang the snatch block from. Winch was a Massdam power-rope puller. I got the 50' rope and used skidding tongs to grab the logs. I ended up wearing out some of the parts, get a spare unit and keep their number handy. they send parts quickly though. Snatch block was either from Baileys or Forestry Suppliers, as were the tongs and peavey, and Veritas scribe.
The smaller cabin I built with a similar one, I was able to roll the frame around on the 3/4" OSB subfloor. On the larger one, the logs were too heavy, they punched the castors through the OSB. I cut about 12-16" OSB squares and put them under the castors and that worked, but I couldnt roll it with a log on. Id lift them from my pile, get them swung sideways as far as i could, set it down, readjust the frame, them lift it again. I started with the logs piled up on one long side by my dirt man with a large excavator after the logs were dropped off by the mill I bought them from. Once close enough to drag, it worked out. Logs are creepy easy to move once lifted from anywhere near the balance point. I could usually grab and end and move it about any way I wanted, even if I messed up the balance point somewhat and one end was on the ground. Sort of fun though.
I made a log sawhorse set from tail ends notched with another 3 ft section on top, then peeled enough wall logs to get 2 logs high all the way around, then used the logs as horses. I lifted about 5 up at a time, peeled them at a nice height, rolled them off as done, then lifted more. I used various lengths of 2x6 as sikds acriss the pile, and to get them to rol to the far side as I booted them off. Used a peavey to roll them in the horses, or when setting up to scribe them. Had log dogs made to hold them in place as I scribed. Yes, i basically did all the log work alone. I made the winch frame slightly too short, I wasnt able to get the ridge fully in place, but got one end placed, then boosted the last bit with my legs up the incline of the gable. The longer logs were cap logs, purlins and ridge.
I think the cabin was 24x32, with 8 ft porch overhang, and 2 ft eave overhang on the back and sides. I went about 7 ft walls and it was a 4-12 roof pitch. I drew it out in cardboard with my framing square to figure the height of the winch frame. I missed by a little, but it worked. I had a platform on the back of the frame, and a milk crate of rocks for counter balance. Both me and the rocks were required for the largest logs.
I have some pics of the winch frame somewhere, but they are on film. I'll try to find them.
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kenneth
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2017 04:07pm
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That's a fantastic story with a lot of clever solutions. Do you have any pictures of your setup and of your construction that you could share? Was this a fully scribed cabin?
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Malamute
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# Posted: 17 Oct 2017 04:10pm - Edited by: Malamute
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Made lots of edits, read again if just seeing this. yes, i have a few pics, I'll try to find them.
I do full round, with chinked joints, round notch or saddle notch corners, depending on your vernacular. It allows the inside walls to be as plumb and even as possible, and all the scribed or chinkless cabins I knew of in my area, people all said they needed to be chinked anyway to keep them airtight as possible. I also like the traditional western style of full round.
Doing log work was absolutely the most fun I ever had building anything, and its far more forgiving and far less of a dark art than most people think. Most older log cabins were not built by anything remotely resembling a master craftsman. Theres a huge variety of methods, even in one area. Talking 100+ year old frontier type cabins.
The last one I built was V plank corners, and leftover smaller logs from the larger place. Its only 14x16 I think. The logs were small enough, like 8" butts, that myself and one other guy just lifted them by hand, it was not that tough. Cap logs and ridge were little more work, but not hard. Been living in the little one for about 12 years.
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kenneth
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2017 08:28pm
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The Hitachi EX60-2 midi excavator arrived and we demonstrated its ability to lift the heavier logs at almost full extension. Now I have to figure out the best way to lift the logs with log tongs, rope sling or both (I'm leaning towards). The log tong is double with a 6" spacer between the tongs, but that will require I find the center of the log whereas a sling would be more forgiving.
We're building a fully scribed cabin with saddle notches and lateral grooves. My son and I attended Ron Brodigan's course out at the Great Lakes School of Log Building in Ely, Minnesota. So we have 10 days of experience and a lot to learn.
Your level of experience, Malamute, is humbling. I would still like to see some pictures of your cabins.
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Malamute
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2017 11:04pm - Edited by: Malamute
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I found the pics of one of my hand winches. My camera is toast, so I'm trying to figure out how to digitize them.
I have no vast experience, just vast interest and passion for traditional cabins.
Think I have a couple cabin pics.
Marks_porch.jpg
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IMG_2283_edited.jpg
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Malamute
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2017 11:24pm
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Hmm, one didnt load and cant be added now, so here it is.
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skootamattaschmidty
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2017 12:16am
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My cabin is a log cabin built by my uncle. I built a log bunkie/sauna 3 years ago. When my uncle built the cabin. He had a large cable strung between two trees and then hoisted logs up with a block and tackle and ran them along the cable to put in place. I did the sauna the same way. The cable was centred over the worksite and then I was able to swing the logs around and position where I needed them. I placed the logs, then scribed them, lifted them off and over to my saw horses where I made my cuts, then repositioned them. The block and tackle can work miracles!
Good luck with your project!
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kenneth
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2017 08:10am
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Hey Malamute, those are beautiful as are their 'yards'! I love the porch columns which I'm guessing are not structural? The roof pitch seems shallow. Are you not in snow country?
Skoot, I'm curious how the cable is attached to the trees. And did you stretch guy lines to reinforce those the trees? And what kind of sling did you use?
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Malamute
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2017 10:09pm - Edited by: Malamute
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Thanks, I love the country I'm in. Vast areas of public land, high mountains close by, all manner of game wandering about in the area. Its not as romantic or picturesque as forest, but then I dont have to worry about forest fires. Land there mainly buys you space from other people. It doesnt require a lot of land, but some buffer is nice.
I like the shallow pitch roofs, they are more traditional in the western mountains regardless of snow. The frontier cabins were mostly built with dirt or sod roofs. The low pitch roofs are also really easy to built and work on. Steel roofs do fine with any amount of snow, but we dont get a lot for the most part.
Yes, the porch posts are structural. The larger cabin has screw adjusters under them, but I dont recall ever adjusting them or the current owner saying anything about it. I ran 5/8" allthread down through the walls as far as i could drill, about 6 feet. I left gaps to tighten them after a year or so, I think they took about 1/2" of tightening. My logs were dry, dead standing, had dried more sitting in the lumber mills yard before I bought them, dried more on my site all season as I built it. I left gaps above all the doors and windows also, they never settled much, despite dire warnings from many sources. The doors and windows are splined to allow settling (2x4 inletted edgewise into the log ends, the door and window frames attached to the splines). I used the foam pipe insulation as filler/backer above the doors and windows, then chinked over them. You can see the settling, it bulges the somewhat, it just didnt do it a lot. On the smaller cabins, I just frontiered it, nailed directly through the frames into the logs, No problems at all. They were also very dry logs.
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skootamattaschmidty
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# Posted: 21 Oct 2017 02:02am
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The cable was wrapped around the tree and secured with u bolt clamps. I did take another piece of cable to act as a guy wire and secured that to another tree behind that,going low with the cable. As far as a sling goes I just had a long piece of chain I looped around one end and then the other then attached that to the block and tackle. In some cases I just wrapped the chain around the middle of the log and hoisted from that
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