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ryanh51
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2017 14:19
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Hi all!
Brand new to this forum, but I've been doing research into my first build for the last year or so. I have quite a few questions, so please bear with me.
First, though, a brief summary of what I plan on doing: My wife, my brother, and I are going to be doing the bulk of work on this cabin, and most everything will be done by hand. We have a chainsaw, an axe, power tools, etc. but we do not yet have a tractor and for the time being would rather put that money into other things. We want it to be as comfortable as possible, especially on the hottest and coldest days, so we plan on doing hewn D-shaped logs with dovetail notches on the ends. We want to use a sealing tape I found online between the flat sides of the logs, as well as traditional chinking on the front. We don't plan on having a gap between the logs at all. We are planning the interior dimensions to be 20'x20' and want to have two stories, each 7' 1/2" tall (at the peak for the top story). We are planning on doing concrete foundations each at least 2'1/2" tall.
So... Questions:
1. I've read in several places that it is best to cut trees mid to late spring to peel the logs, that would mean waiting around for 6 months and I'm not sure if it's worth it to save a bit on the work, especially with D-shaped hewn logs. will the finished product be any different if I fell the trees in the fall/winter or will it just be more work?
2. Regardless of when I fell the trees, I know that I'm supposed to season the logs before building the cabin. I've read in milling forums, though, that when making lumber I should mill the logs as soon as possible. So... if I am cutting my logs into a D-style before building should I do that immediately or wait until directly before I build?
3. I've moved logs around while camping, hiking, etc. but they've always been older logs that are dry or even rotted. The only freshly trees that I've ever moved more than a few feet have been narrow and cut into manageable pieces. How big of a log (width + length) can I expect to be able to move fresh, with only a couple of guys?
4. speaking of weight, do I need to worry about the weight of a two-story cabin being too heavy for an otherwise decent foundation? I was planning on doing cement footings every 4' around the exterior, with 4 additional footings in center. This is not my strong point and I can't find much info online. Thoughts?
5. How well insulated will a log cabin be without additional fiberglass/foam insulation? We're leaving the option open to add insulation and sheetrock walls, but like the idea of being able to see the logs a lot better. will it be easy to heat/cool?
I have a lot more questions but this post is already getting log. I've only been browsing the forum for about 25 minutes so hopefully I didn't break any rules.
Thanks for the help!
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rockies
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2017 19:10 - Edited by: rockies
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What do you mean by "cement footings every 4' around the exterior, with 4 additional footings in center"? Are you planning on piers or are these footings on grade to help lift the bottom row of logs off the soil? What is the diameter to the logs you will be using?
Bear in mind that a freshly fallen tree can be 50% water and will have to dry out to about 8-12% moisture content in order to be relatively dimensionally stable. If your logs are still too green they will continue to shrink after you build. You will have to carefully detail every location where vertical logs or boards (like posts, window and door trim, areas where cabinets or interior walls, etc attach to the horizontal logs) or the logs will get "hung up" (because vertical logs and boards don't contract very much as compared to horizontal shrinkage they get stuck in place).
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ryanh51
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2017 20:05
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rockies,
The attached image is just one I randomly pulled off the web, but it illustrates what I'm talking about. I want to raise off the ground to prevent rot in my bottom logs, and don't want to pour a full slab, so I was wanting to do this as a happy medium between cost and efficiency.
I want the cut logs to wind up 7 inches wide, so I was planning on cutting trees that will give me a 10-12 inch log before shrinking and cutting.
So my main question with seasoning logs was whether I should let them dry/season BEFORE I cut them, or after. I can see good arguments on both side but can't find anywhere that this issue is addressed directly.
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rockies
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2017 20:22
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This looks like a very bad foundation for a log cabin. Log structure have a great deal of weight along the entire perimeter wall. What happens at the points where you want to cut in a door? How do you install a floor?
At the VERY least I would prefer that if you decide on a foundation such as this (concrete piers resting on footings which should go down below the frost line) that you install a squared off structural perimeter beam (maybe 6" W x 12") on top of the piers (this will also provide you with a place to hang the floor joists) then a plywood subfloor and then build with logs on top of that. At least then your floor will be stable and level.
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ryanh51
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2017 21:06 - Edited by: ryanh51
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I had toyed with the idea of using a much larger log as the main support. We have several larger trees on the property (almost 80 acres) and harvesting them shouldn't be a problem. If you think it would help the integrity of the house, we can definitely look into using 12"+ log directly on top of the foundation.
I had definitely planned on digging below the frost line. In the part of kentucky that I'm in, I need to be just over 2' deep. My main issue is that my dad, my brother, and I are do-it-yourself-ers but me and my dad are electricians, my brother was a plumber and is now an electrician, and my dad was a carpenter like 20 years ago. We have little experience crunching numbers for structural issues. Also, conventional wisdom and "what we've seen before" doesn't always apply to a very heavy log cabin.
We've got about a month before we start felling trees, and at least 6+ months before we even think about building, so I'm trying to find as many people as have built log cabins before to leech information from.
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ryanh51
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2017 21:09
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Is there another foundation that would be BETTER? We're definitely looking to build this right, but we also have a moderately limited budget. I read that I need to get it off the ground to avoid rain splashing onto the logs, and to me this was the way to do that.
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rockies
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2017 21:52
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I would probably use something like "The BigFoot Tube" with a expanded footing cone at the bottom to help spread the weight around. I'd probably use the biggest size tube as well.
http://www.bigfootsystems.com/index.htm
A squared on three sides foundation perimeter beam will give you a place to attach the floor joists.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2017 23:14
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Quoting: ryanh51 We've got about a month before we start felling trees, and at least 6+ months before we even think about building, so I'm trying to find as many people as have built log cabins before to leech information from.
OK, the trees need to be debarked right away or you will get bugs in them. A bark spud is the easiest way to peel them, but the time of the year, ie April and into early may is the best time, otherwise, its a major chore unless you use a draw knife, slow, but all logs must be bark free or you will get bugs. Are you doing saddle notches or butt/pass method? Butt/Pass is quicker. But you have to have uniform logs and how you lay them based on the taper it critical too. Sill log on first course will be cut in half, Alaska saw mill??? Pin the logs with rebar, drill holes just barely smaller than rebar, drive them in, this is along each log and pin the corners too. As the logs dry, they will shrink and bit the rebar and you dont get settling or very minimal settling.
Rain splashing onto logs is a killer, build in plenty of overhang and log homes require all kids of maintenance and care. Its very labor intensive. I took a log home building course last year, best investment I ever made.
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ryanh51
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# Posted: 8 Aug 2017 23:44
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rockies,
The bigfoot system looks to be exactly what I want. Thanks for the link! I've been worried about supporting the most weight with the least investment and bigfoot seems to be geared exactly towards that. Thank you!
toyota,
I've been going back and forth between saddle notches and dovetail notches. It seems to me that saddle notches are easier, but dovetail notches will hold together better and potentially be more weather-proof. For that reason, I'm leaning towards dovetail notches but I'm not completely set. I considered butt and pass for a while, but it seems like they tend to leak more easily (both vapor and moisture) and I really want to build something that will last!
As far as having uniform logs, we are using a mill that guides along a 2x6 board, so they should all be ALMOST exactly the same size post-cut. There may be slight variations, but I intend to take my time and measure every step of the way to make sure it stays level and air-tight. I've also been running around the idea of using wood glue in the corners, but I don't want to cause problems if it continues to settle after building.
Also, I plan on having about 2' of overhang from my roof, so hopefully rainsplash will be minimized, especially since I'm raising the foundation off the ground.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2017 08:15
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Logs should be cut & debarked while "wet" as the moment they start to dry every wood chomper will come along for a meal. As Toyota mentioned March to May is best time frame (pending on your locality of course). Winter Cut Logs can be debarked when the thawing starts in spring. Sometimes it's easier to sled out trees...
The Species of wood you have is a big factor, Cedars & Pines will dry at different rates and each has it's own "quirks" especially with debarking. Also affects your build method & the collective structural weight the foundation must support.
Log Home foundations have to bear the full load and be able to handle shifting and more... Logs = tonnage far more than stick built, almost comparable to a solid masonry home. Look at any solid log home (not log veneers) and notice which ones stand the "test of time". Typically a solid footing below frost level, solid wall at least 1.5x the thickness of log walls (8" logs = 12" wall). Also note elevation is usually at least 18/24" above natural grade to eliminate moisture wicking and backsplash. Another good reason for wrap around porches. * IF you have a lot of rock / field stone on your property, possibly a rubble foundation or Slip Form foundation would do and keep costs down but is labour intensive.
Log Dry Time: again depends on species, thickness and relative weather conditions... Green Log not a good idea, far too much potential to go pear shaped. Bigger Thicker = Longer. Also a factor is what method your going to use, Butt & Pass, Tailed or Cordwood/Stackwall etc.
NB: Each method requires different times & different labour intensity and skill level and you must figure that into your plans as well... Butt & Pass is likely the most user friendly and quickest while cordwood is very labour intensive BUT that gives you 16-24" thick walls, high insulation & thermal mass which works well both in summer for cooling and winter for heating (and allows for using Cedar).
FYI, I live in Logging Country - Pine, Tamarack/Larch & Cedar with many log homes, barns and more, everywhere with many being a century + and not one is on piers. New ones being built a lot as well as Cordwood and all on solid heavy foundations.
Your doing the right things, asking questions, doing your research but also look around your local region and see how & what was done and note what stands up to what hasn't, the reasons are usually fairly obvious.
Hope it helps & good Luck !
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leonk
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2017 10:25
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get books by Alan Mackie and R Chambers, they will answer most of your questions and the price of the books is nothing, considering they will save you a lot of time and pain.
Log cabin can be built on the ground, peer (rocks) or continuous foundation, the type doesn't matter, but it has to be sufficient, as pointed out the logs are heavy.
It's traditionally considered best to fall trees in the winter and peel in the spring or winter.
Building with green is easier on the tools and the builder, you have to account more for the settling and the logs are heavier.
20x20' is the biggest 4 wall cabin I'd attempt, longer walls require additional support and the logs are heavier and harder to come by. I wouldn't dare building more than one story as my first cabin.
You can cut the floor joists into the first round of logs (yes bigger) or lay the walls on the floor your build first.
How do you plan to machine the logs into D shape?
Dovetail is not as good as saddle notch for stability and weather tightness.
I'd avoid 'new' materials such as 'plastic' weather striping between the logs. Use moss or similar.
You either build with no gaps or with chinking - why do both..?
Make sure to use wood with strong bending resistance for the roof (not pine). Be safe, have fun.
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leonk
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# Posted: 9 Aug 2017 10:28
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one more thing, log cabins take long time to warm up in the cold, but they stay warm longer due to thermal mass, so conventional wisdom of stick construction doesn't really apply.
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ryanh51
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2017 18:09
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So I've been doing a lot of researching and planning since my last reply. I've come up with several (hopefully) good plans.
Home depot sells several plastic pier foundation molds like were mentioned earlier. The one I'd prefer to use is 22" x 22" at the base, and fits a 10" concrete forming tube. I plan on using 8 of these piers, each corner plus one in the middle of each wall, and that should hold AT LEAST 50,000lb combined. That should give me about 20,000lb of extra weight after the weight of my logs for the rest of the framing, materials, furniture, etc. That weight is rough because I couldn't identify the trees last time I was there, but should be fairly representative of the hardwoods in the area of the size I plan on using.
Speaking of trees, I don't hear a lot of people using hardwoods to build cabins. Is there a reason? I couldn't identify the trees last time I was on the property (I'm not from Kentucky originally), but it is almost all deciduous trees and there is one particular species that seems to grow very straight with little taper. Best guess, maybe an American beech? I'll know for sure this coming weeks when I go back down to clear the land. Is there any type of tree I should avoid?
I've found very little good information about doors and windows. Should I cut them out after the structure is made, or should I build them as I'm stacking the logs?
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2017 09:12
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http://www.logcabinhub.com/log-cabin-lumber-selection/
https://loghome.com/articles/article/wood-species
Ryan, it appears your hooked / focussed on piers, if you build it that way, you won't like the end result. People have built Log Homes for hundreds of years in most climate zone and the experiences both Good & Bad are out there to learn from. Most importantly is how far down is the bedrock and what soil is between the bedrock & top surface... The shear weight of a log building dictates the rules, just like if you were building with concrete.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2017 12:02 - Edited by: Littlecooner
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comments on log selection. You need to read that article posted by Steve_S. Note that the evergreens have a far greater R value that the hardwoods. Also note that the hardwoods have a larger shrinkage rate than the evergreens.
If you chose to cut your trees, please cut in the winter time or really dormant season, evident by no leaves present. ( Do not cut in early spring when the sap is coming up and the buds are breaking). This helps on moisture content and drying time. You will find that a 2-3 year drying time is recommended after cutting before starting construction. Even then you will experience drying and settlement. Windows and doors, I would suggest a minimum of 6 months of drying and settlement prior to framing windows and doors.
Your tall, no taper trees are not Beech. That I know without photos. (These would help, bark, leaf photos) I would guess you have oak or hickory as your species. These logs are going to be heavy. Heavy when cut and heavy during construction. you need equipment to remove them from the forest and to help lift into place during construction.
Just "food for thought" on this end. with the cost of purchasing that tractor for use during construction and the fact you need a 4-5 year window for what I see as start to finish on your plans for a log cabin, then why not consider pricing a small one room cabin kit from a vendor that already has dried and shaped logs and go for it on the weekend. You could probably have a livable cabin in 6 months to a year with just weekend work. As I would think a far superior product that would be more user friendly. ( you are not going to like the fact that doors and windows do not open as your hardwood logs from the property continue to shrink and warp long after you put them in place). That is a fact you can not avoid, you must live with these facts of hardwood cabins.
Building that small pre fab kit to have a place to stay quickly will allow valuable knowledge to be acquired during construction and then if still burning with desire to build that total "from the property" log cabin, you have a place to enjoy and retreat from the outside as you begin your journey of harvesting your own logs and building a bigger cabin next door over the next few years. I would think this would be a huge moral booster to all involved with the property, go staying in the small foot print and working of the big one next door each week end. Bad weather hits and all are inside, talking about the day the big cabin is completed and making plans for the next work session. ok, just my ideas.
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ryanh51
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2017 12:16
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It sounds like a lot of my initial ideas are unrealistic. My biggest prohibitive factor is cost. I have plenty of time to work on the cabin, plenty of land and plenty of wood (after looking at pictures, they very easily could be hickory) to work with but not a lot of money. I also have friends and family that are willing to lend a hand on occasion, but probably won't be there near as often as I will.
I had settled on concrete piers because they are vastly cheaper than any other type of foundation except maybe just setting logs directly on the ground. I didn't want to do that, because I want this cabin to last more than a few years. Saving enough for any other type of concrete foundation could put my building plans back as much as 6 months, but maybe that could be worth it?
I had also considered milling lumber from the property and building a traditional framed house only buying things I cannot produce myself (housewrap, concrete, nails, screws, insulation, etc.) but it seems to me that I don't have the experience necessary. I've definitely worked with tools my whole life, but carpentry is more of a hobby than anything and I've never worked in residential construction so I don't have the whole picture of what goes on.
Buying a cabin kit is likely out of the question money-wise. I could save up another year or so to supplement milled lumber with dimensional lumber (buying 2x4's, 2x6's, sheathing, etc for the framing but milling my own wood siding and large structural beams) but a year is an awfully long time to sit on my butt with a beautiful piece of land I'm dying to move onto.
At the moment, I'm at a loss but I'll keep trolling the forums here and elsewhere trying to come up with ideas.
Thanks for all the help everyone!
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2017 12:50 - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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A log cabin is not a cheap build if you do it right. It can cost up to 3+ times or more the cost of a stick built.
If you want to do it right you really should take a log building course. We didn't because we were working 24/7.
We hired out our log cabin building and used white cedar from our land for the top half of our cabin. The bottom half are white clear from our builders land.
He used a rented crane to get the logs on the top half up.
It is hand scribed and you should consider this because you are going to have even more maintance if you have to work on your chinking every summer.
There is enough maintance in keeping the logs and checking in shape.
We use Perma-Chink products at the cost of about $500.00 per year. Last year we spent 2k because we had to clean, add another coat of stain and finish on the exterior and finally finished cleaning the logs inside. It took us two summer vacations just to do the interior.
This year it was a touch up on the checks with Perma Chink chalking. It took a good three weeks due to rain.
No matter how long you dry the logs there is always going to be settlement and checking to deal with. This is why log cabins are built along the doorways and Windows with room for settlement to occur.
A nice wide overhang all the way around will help to keep your logs from weathering. Our overhangs are 3'.
A metal roof will keep snow off the roof. You do not want extra weight of snow. if you are going to be there in the winter than you will need snow blocks to keep the snow from falling on someone. Than you will need to rake the roof to get the snow weight off.
We have engenerred joists and overbuilt the roof. Just got spray foam this year in the roof, floor and around the Windows and doors to help with insulation and rodents. If you use fiberglass insulation rodents will use it as nesting material it's nasty and will make your cabin a smelly miserable place to live.
You must have a good engineered foundation. Please do this. Spend the money. Our builder was excellent but he didn't know anything about the drainage issues or the foundation and we had to replace the foundation.
It's been 11 years since we built our cabin. We are hoping to have it finished by next fall. Time and money always being an issue.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2017 13:14
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"Several large trees on 80 acres" Do you have a sufficient number of trees to produce interest in a logger/timber buyer in harvesting some of your standing timber? Use the money produced to purchase cabin building material. You should have a "county forester" somewhere around that you may be able to have a professional provide a walk thru of the property to see if you have sufficient volume to consider selling timber. Species is very critical. Brown Forman operates a cooperage mill in my community and the correct white oak tree will yield $400-500 for the butt cut only when delivered to their yard. You could have a great deal of money growing on your 80 acres. Timber is a crop, just like corn, wheat or beans.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2017 13:32
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I disagree about selling your timber.
We did that one year because we were broke and needed money to pay our taxes.
Loggers make a mess of your land. They do not do selective cutting. They tear up your land. They have to get back there before heavy snowfall but sometimes the ground is not quite frozen at that time and you will have deep ruts. They may even get stuck in mud and create even deeper ruts.
By the time you pay for the labor involved you will end up with peanuts (about $4,000 for 10 acres of white cedar) and a lifetime of waiting for your land to heal.
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leonk
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2017 15:54
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OP, don't get discouraged, people build log cabins with minimal skill. The question is whether you're going to be happy with the result. However, if you have the land, the trees and the physical ability - go for it, don't listen to anyone.
I'd place logs on large rocks or worse case - on the ground, see if you can find some oak for the first round - they will outlast you, esp if you treat with something.
Chinking DOES NOT require constant maintenance, don't pay for new stuff like Permachink - cement works fine. A friend of mine lives in a 30 years old log cabin full time, he's barely touching his chinking, btw this is in Canada, Kentucky would be much easier on the cement. The same goes for insulation value.
You don't have to wait years for the wood to dry - build with green, just allow for settling.
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rockies
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# Posted: 13 Aug 2017 19:11 - Edited by: rockies
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I'm not a big fan of log homes. Everyone watches that PBS special "Alone in the Wilderness" about the guy building his own log home (and everything else) using simple tools and they think "I could do that".
Maybe you could, but you must remember that he built himself a bare minimum cabin - no running water, no electricity, no appliances. Today most people want a bit more "city" in their country, and no greater proof of that is when the single guy builds his off grid cabin and finally meets someone and the first thing she says when she visits the cabin is "I want a bathroom"
Your biggest concerns seem to be price and time. Logs take a long time to dry out. They are really heavy and they really limit your floor plan (how do you add on a bedroom to a log cabin easily)?
If your going with concrete footing tubes (an easy, wise choice) I would use your trees for foundation beams and then use stock lumber for the rest. Carrying around a 2x6 will be a lot easier than a log. I would also look at this article for inspiration.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/cozy-cabin-zmaz06jjzraw
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Big Ed
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2017 23:18
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Quoting: silverwaterlady Loggers make a mess of your land. They do not do selective cutting. They tear up your land.
I’ve come to this conclusion also. Loggers don’t care about what they leave behind, they just want to get their timber and go. I’ve considered this as well, we have twenty acres of timberland. A lot of trees are dead from pine beetles, they could provide timber for a cabin we would like to build. But I think we will do it ourselves, we have a 3 yard bucket loader.
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