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Chinook92
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 03:00am
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How's it going?
I've recently aquired some land up in the mountains, about 15 minutes from the ski area, in Washington state. A small lot, 400x100ft, but big enough for my needs. We already have a small cargo container, workshop, and generator room, and well drilled, with power available, so, technically it's on the gird, in an off grid location.
Anyway, the rules are quite simple... No permit if under 200sqr foot, 24"max roof overhangs... Lofts, second floors, don't count as square footage, so, for example, if it's 10x20 and 3 floors high, it still counts as 200sqr ft
So, ideally, I'm after the biggest cabin possible, that is practical to build, and is suitable for the location (1000ft elevation, cascade mountains, cold wet and rainy, with decent snow loads in the winter)
This shack/cabin doesn't need plumbing or anything, Woodstove for heat, bathroom will be built as a separate structure/bathhouse.
My current house is 380sqr/ft, so, it's not going to be too much of an adjustment.
My idea so far is a 14x14, or 16x12 haven't decided yet, but general idea is an A-frame built with either footprint, with the bottom level having 4,6, or 8 foot walls angled out one foot, for a pentagon face, second floor being 2foot wider than the first, not sure on the pitch of the roof, But the goal is the loft to be slightly larger than the main floor, with possible dormers....
I'd love some input, ideas, pointers, direction......
Too many ideas...
The end result is for it to be a weekend house, as I plan on also living on a sailboat in town for work during the week, and to spend weekends in the mountains, or... Just go be a total ski bum, not planning on it bring a full to,e residence, but, capable if need be, more intended for a solo cabin, with the occasional snow bunny from the ski area
I plan on building this to be a permanent building, so, no trailer houses
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 09:00am - Edited by: Cowracer
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We have no restrictions like that, but we have a 16x16 bottom floor and a 16X20 upper floor with a gambrel roof. We cantilevered the upper floor out 4 feet to provide a bit of an overhang over the porch.
I wonder if you can do 14x14 bottom floor, and let the top floor overhang the allowed 2 feet on front and back for 14x18 upstairs. Or, even overhang all 4 sides for a 18x18 upstairs. It would look like an old cantilever barn, but not quite as extreme.
Tim
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Atlincabin
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 09:38am - Edited by: Atlincabin
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Ultimately the largest footprint for the smallest wall length will be a square. Whether that ends up cheapest depends on lots of other things. Depending on how you are building, the 12x16 might be simpler since plywood comes in 4x8 sheets - less cutting and fitting and waste than a 14x14. Also have a look at span tables for floor and ceiling joists to determine what sizes are needed and it may be more efficient to use slightly smaller joists on a 12x16 compared to the 14x14.
Years ago, I saw a cabin built on an 8x10 floor (largest allowable without a permit) that had walls tilted out so that the room felt much larger than a simple 8x10. Downside to doing that is the potential work and wasted material involved.
Just a couple thoughts.
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rockies
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 06:44pm - Edited by: rockies
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You are taking a simple shape ( an A frame) and complicating it with angled walls that jut out, pentagon faces and dormers.
"A frames" are a difficult shape to fully use because you can't place any cabinets against the sloped walls or stand right at the edge of the room. The sloped sides are also difficult to put windows into.
Build a rectangular cabin 12' by 16'. This will allow you to use standard framing materials (4x8 sheets of plywood, studs 16" on center). Make the lower floor walls a standard 8 feet high. Place a loft floor on top of the walls (for whatever size you wish) and build 2 foot high walls on top of that. Then put on a 12:12 pitch roof (45 degrees).
Do not overhang the upper floor over a porch. The resulting interior space will have 4 cold surfaces around it (loft floor, two roof planes and the end wall).
I would suggest (if you want to really save floor space and you're planning on building a bathhouse as well) that you invest in one of the super efficient outdoor wood fired boilers and run some underground water pipes to both the bath house and the cabin (for radiators). This will provide you with both heat and hot water. The outdoor boiler can even be put inside a separate room in the bath house building so you can load it out of the weather.
Keep everything simple and use standard building material measurements.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 07:23pm - Edited by: Steve_S
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@Tim, That barn is certainly a "One Of" I think... Photoshopped ?
No one has mentioned it but you can build A 14X16 WITH 10 / 12' walls but installing the loft floor @ 8'. That would give you either a 2' or 4' short side wall on the loft floor.
In my Province that is considered a Story & Half and not counted as living space / floor space... If the walls are 8' then it's a full story & square footage applies. Double Check your region to verify what's what, do not even make assumptions about building codes and permitting requirements, too often that leads to issues resulting in extended Drunken Sailor Talk.
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Chinook92
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 07:41pm
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....what's wrong with drunk sailors?  
....he says while working on a boat....
Yeah, near as I can tell, and after reading the building codes, 200sqr/ft and under is considered a shed...
I grew up in an A-frame, albiet, it was a 3 bedroom 2 bath with a fairly large upstairs master bedroom, it was a kit house built by my grandpa in '74, Haida Hide I think is what the model was called, that had 4' walls angled outward downstairs, which is where I got the idea....
I'm 6', so, ideally I'd like to be able to stand up in the loft and not bang my head in the middle of the night, but, my requirements for a loft are 1) standing headroom even if it's just in the middle, and 2 enough room for a queen size mattress.
I'm going to admit that I don't know much about building houses. Joinery, fine wood working, furniture making, marine carpentry, sure. I'm a marine diesel mechanic and commercial fishernan, so, I know pretty much everything possible about boats... But nothing about building houses....
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 09:41pm
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WOW... I found this video on building one of those Haida Hide Cabins... What an interesting design, hell on furnishings though. lol
https://youtu.be/NM4esQWKIwg
$22,000 35 years ago, out of Washington State.
$22,000.00 in 1974 had the same buying power as $114,967.62 in 2017.
http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?amount=22000&year=1974
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 10:54pm
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Quoting: rockies Do not overhang the upper floor over a porch. The resulting interior space will have 4 cold surfaces around it (loft floor, two roof planes and the end wall).
That's why I put in insulation under the floor before closing it in. It works very well.
I love your advice 99% of the time Rockies, but not everyone builds in a high-elevation zone were freezing to death or being in an avalanche is a high-level concern.
@Steve... Nope. No photochop. you see them all over. Mostly they are twin-base setups like this. I never bothered to learn why they did this.
Tim
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Chinook92
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 11:07pm - Edited by: Chinook92
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Wow.........
That Haida Hide video brings up many many many years of memories... Lived in one of those for damn near my first 14 years on a beach in the Pacific Northwest.
That's gonna be pretty close to all I need for my design........ Now how to scale one down into a 200sqr footprint.....
But now do y'all see what I was meaning about the walls extended outward?
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Borrego
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 11:15pm
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Before I decided to go scofflaw, I was gonna build the largest legal size here (120 sf), but build a series of them with a deck in between...there is usually a minimum distance between buildings so check that out before proceeding...
Of course with a roof joining them all.....So not unlike an old spanish hacienda....
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Chinook92
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# Posted: 3 May 2017 11:22pm - Edited by: Chinook92
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4 A-frame in a + orientation with a giant x oriented 4 a frame roof, make it look like a giant compass rose from above and a central covered firepit...one cook house/bar, one pan asian sauna bathhouse with retractable roof and indoor/outdoor Japanese soaking tub and one as a ski repair shop.......
Don't tempt my hippy ass!
Gotta build the first one..
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paulz
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# Posted: 4 May 2017 12:02pm
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16x12 Skyscraper!
My county it's 300 sq. ft. BUT 15' height restriction. Everyone knows about the 300' but nobody about the 15'. Check the codes yourself if you haven't. Glad I did.
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rockies
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# Posted: 4 May 2017 06:34pm
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An interesting idea for a cabin. I would think that the greatest stresses on the building envelope would be at the connection points between the roof and the top of the side angled walls and the floor and the side angled walls.
I have no idea how this type of "flared" wall construction might react to a heavy wet snow load. If the side walls aren't properly engineered (or built on site) I could see the whole roof pancaking down onto the floor.
But maybe I'm wrong (gasp!)
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 4 May 2017 11:22pm - Edited by: DaveBell
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An A Frame may be a PITA.
Thinking dimensional lumber...
and keeping it simple...
16x12
2x6x12 walls
Loft area 8x12, 2x10 joists topped at 8' to give 4' walls plus attic area (roof rise)
10/12 pitch slope roof, 12 foot span, 1'8" overhang, uses 2x10x10' rafters
Onsite made triple offset 2x10x8's ridge beam, lag bolted
6x6x16' Center post attached to loft joist, from floor to ridge beam
Rafter Rise on 10/12 pitch roof provides about 5', + 4' walls, provides ~ 8 feet head room in loft at ridge beam
More precise calculations needed if this design meets the needs.
The center post may not be needed because the loft joists control wall spread. Or could be reduced to 4x4.
SCF Clan will comment.
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gunner1198
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# Posted: 5 May 2017 09:15am
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Quoting: Cowracer @Steve... Nope. No photochop. you see them all over. Mostly they are twin-base setups like this. I never bothered to learn why they did this.
Typically the bottom barns were used to store corn, while the top section held tobacco, wheat, or hay. So I imagine your picture is a corn crib with a hay loft.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 5 May 2017 03:42pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Quoting: Chinook92 Anyway, the rules are quite simple... No permit if under 200sqr foot, 24"max roof overhangs... Lofts, second floors, don't count as square footage, so, for example, if it's 10x20 and 3 floors high, it still counts as 200sqr ft
I think you better be careful with this. If you build a 200 sq ft first floor with a 260 square foot second floor, I'm pretty sure the building dept will take issue with it. A 200 sq ft with a loft, or a loft that is more or less a second floor, ok, but beyond that you are pushing it. As well, often the no-permit limitation only applies to utility buildings and not residences, in which case regardless of floor area the building department would not allow residential use.
One thing to watch is the definition of floor area. The IBC and IRC codes define floor area as the area inside the exterior walls. Big difference between a 200 sq ft. building measured on the outside, and one measured on the inside. Depends on what the jurisdiction will accept.
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LDamm
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# Posted: 8 May 2017 10:08am
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Another thing to note. Don't know what your rules are, but for me, I could build under 200 Sq ft with out a permit, but its a storage building. No sleeping, not cooking, no running water.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 8 May 2017 10:35am - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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In a unorginized township in Canada in the middle of nowhere we were not allowed to build a storage shed until we had our primary structure.
And now there are fly overs where they compare new photos of buildings with old photos on Google Earth so it's not easy to go incognito.
Edited to include: if you build a structure to live in they are going to find it and if you were not paying taxes on the structure they will determine how long it was there and you will have to pay. This happened to us. But it was not our fault because we had someone from the municipality come out and take measurements etc. they just didn't turn in the correct paperwork and I did not throughly read my tax bills.
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 8 May 2017 05:31pm
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Then there's the drawbridge style walls options for expand-ability.
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Chinook92
Member
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# Posted: 11 May 2017 03:32am
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Still wondering how practical the outward angle idea is from an engineering standpoint...
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 11 May 2017 09:18am
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One consideration about A-Frames...
My upstairs has a Gambrel roof, which is just as annoying (at times) as an a-frame. I cannot put a tall dresser on the sloping walls, as the slope kicks it out so far as to be in the way. You cannot hang pictures or other decorations on the walls. Shelves? fuggidaboutit! Drywall is not a problem, but if you are doing any type of wood (like tongue and groove), you can give up any hopes of having the joints line up from the sloping wall to the vertical walls in front and back.
It's not easy to see, but at the bottom of this corner, the t&g lines up perfectly across the corner. But by the top, I was a good inch and a half out.
I love the Gambrel look, and would not have changed for anything, but the sloping walls gave me a few things to live with that I never considered till I had them.
Tim
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david_woods
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# Posted: 12 May 2017 10:01am
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Loads of great ideas being tossed around. Looking at the permitted square footage of 200, I think an A-Frame is definitely the best way to go. If you haven't already, take a look at log cabin plans. There is a great cabin design with a mez floor on there with floor plans, design etc...
Worth a look 
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