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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 30 Dec 2015 11:06am - Edited by: Jabberwocky
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Greetings all. New user here. Been poking around in these forums for a while and appreciate the wealth of advice. My wife and I are inching closer to our goal of building a smaller cabin or house on some land, and I'm always seeking advice on the best way to go about it. I don't want to deluge you with a 'wall o' text', but one thing I realize is that a lot of unnecessary questions can be avoided if I give you enough information up-front.
For the past few years, we have lived near Oklahoma City in an 1800 sq ft. house with a mortgage. Our goal is to sell it and build a small cabin or house and eventually (relatively soon hopefully) live mortgage free.
For over two years I have researched construction methods, costs, styles, you name it. Our plan started out wanting to build a 1400 sq. ft. pole barn. Then it grew smaller. Then it changed to straw bale. Then it changed to a multi-container house. Then it changed to pre-fab. Then it changed to stick built but smaller. Then it changed to Structurally Insulated Panels but smaller. Every time we reached a certain point and realized that it was still going to cost too much, we paired down our expectations and 'needs.'
At this point, we have decided that we could be comfortable in something as small as a 16x20 2-story, or somewhere around 640 sq. ft. We would prefer a little more space than that, as she needs a decent sized kitchen and I need an enclosed office, but, we can make do with that size. We are seriously considering a gambrel style outbuilding-type of building. The dilemma I have however is whether to stick build a small building, to buy an outbuilding from a portable building manufacturer, or to build some sort of kit.
I mentioned I've done a lot of research... maybe too much. Because now I'm obsessed with construction techniques and pitfalls and have become an energy nerd. Here are my musings about my different options right now, and I would love to hear some feedback on them...
Option 1) Stick build
Here's why I personally like this option. It would allow us to build 'the perfect wall.' http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/getting-insulation-out-your-wa lls-and-ceilings
For those who aren't interested in wading through the article I linked, the cliff notes version is this: Rather than insulating stud bays and ceiling joists, which creates thermal bridging, the PERSIST method insulates the outside of the building, keeping everything within an airtight building envelope. This method would cost a bit more in materials, but is (not trying to start a debate here) a far superior method compared to traditional approaches.
The downside to stick building is the fact that I'm not a carpenter. I have basic skills and understand the concepts, but I have neither the tools nor the time to stick-build my own house. I will therefore have to pay someone to do it for me. BOO!
Option 2) Purchase a pre-made shell and finish it out.
I can, for about $10-12k, go down to Joe Bob's buildings and buy a two story 16x20 gambrel shed and have it delivered to site. The advantages to this are, while I can't/won't stick build my own house, I don't have any reservations of insulating and sheetrocking my own house. So I could do that and just hire a plumber and electrician to finish it out.
The disadvantages are that I feel hesitant about being able to adequately insulate the house. My wife is a California hippie *If you're reading this babe, I love everything about you* and she won't allow me to go the spray-foam route. Additionally, after two years of construction method research, I am not comfortable with trying to retro-fit a vented airspace/batt insulation in a non-attic roof/ceiling. The performance and potential long-term issues render the method sub-par in my humble, non-professional opinion.
Option 3) Put together a solid wood kit cabin ourselves. See here: http://www.allwoodoutlet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=76&product_id=237
I realize that it seems like a lot of money, but the beauty of this option is that we can totally put this together ourselves. The wife likes it because it largely eliminates the off-gassing concerns she has from other building materials. (Her 'off-gassing' concerns after I eat Mexican food are bad enough without adding formaldehyde to the mix  ). The problem I have with this option is how to insulate, plumb, and wire it. Obviously plumbing and wiring can be overcome, but insulation??? Not sure there..We could insulate the inside by building a service wall lined with rigid foam board, but we're back to the wife's off-gassing concerns and eliminate the neat all-wood finish inside. We could insulate the outside and build a PERSIST structure out of it, but that would cost a butt-load in additional materials and labor, and eliminate the cost savings of building a typical house of that size. Another concern I have is the quality and durability of such a kit. How will it fare with settling, twisting, wind shear, etc. long term?
So there you have it in a long drawn out nutshell. Any advice welcome, and thanks in advance!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 30 Dec 2015 11:26am
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IMO, if the goal is a structure with long life and energy efficiency then stick build. Stick build on a proper foundation. Then air seal and insulate well. I like sheet foam (polyisocyanurate with foil faces) on the exterior. I can accept the foam as I know when done right I save burning all sorts of fuels to keep warm. There are trades to be made. If you can't build the frame hire it out.
I would carefully think about the benefits and drawbacks of small two story structures. Stairs done right take up a lot of space. By done right I mean done to building code to avoid pitfalls like too steep, too narrow (how do you get the bed or whatever up that narrow staircase with winders?), awkward riser heights, etc. Small floorplans don't have a lot of space to give away to stairs, IMO
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 30 Dec 2015 01:10pm - Edited by: Jabberwocky
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Thanks MtnDon. Yes, you're spot on about the goal.
Around here a slab foundation seems to be about the same cost as if I were to try to pour a pier foundation myself. So that's the plan - slab or else perimeter footing with crawlspace. And Poly-iso is what I was thinking too. I'm thinking Huber Zip Wall sheathing with joints taped as the vapor and air barrier, and the Poly-iso with taped joints on top of that. 1x4 furring strips over that for siding.
A by-product of this journey to build a small house is that I have become proficient in SketchUp. I've been working on the layout of a small 2 story and the stairs issue you speak of is my current project. I appreciate the advice there. They are a challenge. When it comes to 'code,' I certainly recognize its value and necessity. Just because my project will not require any inspections or permits doesn't mean I want to build a sub-standard structure. That being said, if the code says I have to build a 36" wide staircase regardless of the overall size of the building, welllll...... then I'm going to treat the code as more of a guideline than gospel. This size of a house, in my opinion, and in comparison to the average house in my area, is borderline "tiny house," and as such, certain concessions must be made. But you are absolutely right about making sure that whatever staircase is built actually works in real-world living! Thanks for the input
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SteveF
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2016 02:44pm
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You can check out my build that I finished in 2014. I had the shell built and then I finished it but had trades to do the plumbing and electrical. The shell build too 4 weeks and that started beginning of May and I fully finished it by September.
http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/6_4565_0.html
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2016 10:15pm
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Stick built will be the best value, lowest cost. But to get a cabin in place quicker, a modular unit dropped off.
Build it yourself. Pulling a permit may be super simple. My cabin was my first permit. Went well, county very nice and easy to deal with. Was so smooth and seamless. I have a dried in shell in 9 days of construction. This was with windows and a door. I could secure it. After it was all done, I had a total of about $14,000 into it, fully finished. Full concrete footing/stemwall foundation and overbuilt Zero OSB, all real plywood.
I was hesitant, but no more. I will pull another permit to build my retirement home, same lot.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2016 01:54am
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Jabberwocky
I've built 4 or 5 dozen log home kits from around a dozen manufacturers all over the country. Some would say that means I'm ignorant and anti cabin  . On a good many I did the part the diy'er didn't want to tackle and then turned it back over to them. I build houses and participate in a couple of owner builder forums. My Dad ran a construction business and an owner builder training program. Sounds like I dislike owner builders. I ask for the papers when buying a truss, the storage building for the farmers market lot a couple of months ago, or any other engineered product. Especially if it is half the thickness of anything I've seen used for that purpose before. You aren't picking on mom and pop here, this is a business and that is a cost of doing business. Generally when using the word "code" in discussing something structural one could simply swap the term "common sense".
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2016 07:21am - Edited by: Steve_S
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@Jabberwocky,
I went through a similar list of building types & doing research on them... We originally had been planning on Cordwood/Stackwall built on a Rubble Trench foundation as Cedar is pervasive here which is the best wood for such construction... Quickly realizing the amount of labour and complications we ran through a lot of variants.
In the end, if you've seen my Cabin Build thread, we went with a 24x20 FPSF Slab and stick build with 2x6 walls. Cost & ease to build (I'm familiar with stick build) plus less hassle... Although in my area Cordwood Building are popular and there are many from houses to massive barns.
We looked at "many" prebuilt sheds, cabins and found them lacking in various ways with one exception, a local Mennonite who builds amazing sheds/cabins with rough cut (his own mill) wood... $ to Lb good value and well built.
Then we found this: THE CANDLEWOOD BARN floor Space: 395 Sq. Ft. Loft Space: 315 Sq. Ft. which we really really liked... After buying the plans (cheap) we realized this would not work for us unfortunately... and I would have had to redraw the plans myself and submit it as Owner Designed & built (more flexible here in that regards). This type of structure could lend itself to Smartwall / Perfectwall methods quite easily. One attractive feather is the 4' span between the 4x6 studs (plans variations).
Here is a GOOD Blog by a fellow who built one of these Candlewood Barns, worth a perusal ! tomsgardens building-my-small-barn
There is a building around the corner from me, identical to these Allwood kits but that one is produced in New Brunswick, Canada. Looks nice and Maggie always mumbles when she sees it (wants one as a Bunkie / office). We have been in it and looked very closely at the method and I like it BUT - There it is... Insulating it (must have here) would be tricky and would most likely be best with exterior rigid foam like XPS or ISO but then you'd also have to float siding over that which would detract from the exterior. OF NOTE on Water Penetration !!! The building here has water stains in each corner as the wood catches the rain and allows wicking... even though there is a thin gasket between the "logs" and both sides of the wood is clear stained & finished.
Off Gassing: Foams like XPS & ISO don't offgas, neither does Rockwool (Roxul). Soy based spray foams only offgas while curing (< 48 hrs in summer) and for the Urethanes, well, they off-gas a while . I myself am quite sensitive to chemical exposures so that was a primary concern for me as well... I'm using ISO for my cathedral ceiling & the 2" exterior clad and EPS-II with bonded fibre on each side between the studs internally. See attached diagram of how I am assembling my wall structure.
I hope it helps and doesn't muddy the waters more... Sometimes too much info and opinions can become Overload.
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2016 12:18pm
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Quoting: SteveF You can check out my build that I finished in 2014. I had the shell built and then I finished it but had trades to do the plumbing and electrical. The shell build too 4 weeks and that started beginning of May and I fully finished it by September. http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/6_4565_0.html
Wow! Fantastic cabin. I hadn't seen your build here as there are so many it becomes difficult to sort through them all. It's always nice to see something similar to whatever I have in mind at the time. I'll show the pictures to my wife, as wiring and lighting placement was one of the things she was having trouble envisioning with such a kit.
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2016 12:22pm
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Steve_S
Thank you for the information and links. You are right... when you immerse yourself in so much research, it eventually becomes a little bit of an obsession, or else overwhelming. My wife laughs at me - two years ago anytime we walked into an establishment, the first thing I would start observing is the people. Now I'm immediately drawn to the construction details of even the most straightforward buildings, and I start critiquing the work and talking technicalities much to her chagrin. 
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2016 05:10pm - Edited by: Steve_S
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Jabberwocky,
I've been exposed to construction since I was bit a wee lad as my dad was a General Contractor and so I had lot's of opportunity to "get in the way"... I hadn't done any major construction stuff for many many long years and then started doing small reno's and updates... Last place I reno'd was built in the mid 1870's and BOY what a challenge that was ... said I would never ever do that again... So another 8 years passed in a blink...
I made myself crazy when Maggie talked me into "following my life long dream" to get a small parcel and build a self-sufficient offgrid "cabin" in a nice quiet & remote place... It IS what the doctor ordered and I have been doing my best to make it happen... There is no better feeling than being out there with the critters and surrounded by Mother Natures best works... especially fort me as it really helps with my PTSD... Being around a lot of folks or confined in Urbanity is "very bad" for me.
After a lot of fiddle faddle and mental gear grinding we went with Stick Built 20x24. Here's a link to my Cabin Build thread Steve's Cabin Build underway 2015
I was "rusty" in the sense of not having built much of anything for nearly a decade but it eventually came back to me... Sure I had to buy new tools and equipment (Ex Wife destroyed all my property when she was released from custody), so I carefully shopped out my tools with an eye on projects beyond the cabin itself. I started by building my Pump House then extending that to include my Power House and test some building methods that I intended for the cabin... Good Practice to build something less critical first and screw up on that.... And YES, there was screw ups, partly me, partly the rough cut lumber, partly not have the bigger vision at the start... BUT it all worked out.
Knowing that I only had myself to rely on for the most part... (all the "friends" who I did jobs for including build a race car for one, who were supposed to help all "vanished" when it came time to help me). I chose to build in a Modular Fashion, with 8' long wall sections with 2x6@24oc which surprisingly were not heavy, with the exception of one section that has a 6' 2x8 Header Structure which added many pounds. Once the wall sections were assembled, a couple of us tossed them up in 2-1/2 hours. Did that while fighting major infections and hobbling around with a bum leg and other health issues to boot.
It really isn't so hard to do unless you convince yourself that it is. Some things are best left to pro's like pouring a concrete slab or installing the roof (depending on what you use, Tin is best IMO). I'm a very typical picky Virgo and notice details way too easily, being a perfectionist has good points BUT some nasty points especially when dealing with building a home that requires less "perfection" to work properly... Making things tight to the mm is not always a good idea... I learned that the hard way.
There are two books I Very Highly recommend to have in hand.
DeWALTS Carpentry & Framing Complete Handbook
The Visual Handbook of Building & Remodeling
BTW: The durability of the T&G 2xX build like the Allwood cabins/sheds seems pretty good. A Lumber Yard here has one (10x12) they use to show different things in, pending on season. They are forever moving the thing around with a fork lift and have done so for years and it's holding up amazingly well. I doubt that a 2x4 or even 2x6 built shed would handle that kind of abuse over the years.
Now, just to chuck a big stone in the pond... Your near OK City so you get nasty twisters and other assorted unpleasantness's. You don't mention having your land yet, so I'll assume your still hunting for that elusive bit of paradise. I'd look at something with slight / gentle hills and me personally would be considering something semi-earth-sheltered cut into such a hillside. Having survived being tossed around in an F4 that would be a primary thought for me... Alas I no longer live in an area subject to such nastiness... Only Ice Storms, Snowstorms and major heat waves, with occasional F1's and the rare F2, small earth shakes but nothing worth worrying about.
Dang It... more to ponder eh ! Work WITH Nature and use her to your advantage, don't fight her, it's not a battle that any human can win.
EDIT: Inspiration ?
Gabriala Island Cabin
Yahoo News Article on the Gabriola Island Cabin
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2016 06:58pm
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Steve_S
Thanks for the advice. I only have a few minutes at the moment, but I look forward to spending some time reading about your cabin progress.
You are right, I don't have the land yet.... I sort of did... we were originally planning on building on two acres next to my folk's spread, however that isn't going to be feasible because even though it's out of city limits, there are enough people on the road to have some pretty specific covenants and restrictions. We won't be able to build the size and type of house we have the budget for there unfortunately. So the current plan is to buy something nearby that will offer the freedom to build how we want. I have my eye on a few properties, and I'm not sweating that hunt too much... it seems like there's a pretty good chance we will end up with what we want when the timing is right. We are looking, but we aren't offering yet as we still have a city-fied house to sell.
Because of wanting to build cheaply, and because of tornadoes, I even looked into earthships, but after two days of research decided that the drawbacks outweighed the positives LOL.
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rockies
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2016 09:00pm
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Hi. Why don't you consider building a hybrid design?
I am going to be building a small cabin in stages. The central part will have a full kitchen, bathroom, living/dining space and a Murphy bed on the main level. There is a small loft over the bathroom for storage. I had thought about using it as a sleeping loft but I don't want to climb a ladder everyday. Eventually I will be adding on a proper mudroom/entry and then a dining space/pantry. Needless to say I also looked for the easiest and cheapest methods of construction.
For your cabin I would go with the slab on grade (If you can get a concrete truck in there it would be the simplest foundation). I've also read lots of articles on the "Green Building Advisor" website and they all seem to find that crawlspace foundations are a nightmare to insulate and ventilate properly.
The other hard to insulate area in a small cabin is the roof. Most people want the space to be big and open inside so they usually want a cathedral ceiling. The trouble with that design is that there isn't much depth in the roof structure to install enough insulation and then you have to also put in baffles and air vents and vapor barriers. It's a lot of hassle.
I plan on using a SIP roof on top of regular 2x6 stud walls. The SIP design has insulation, structure and vapor barrier all in one. Just put the panels on top of your exterior stud walls and ridge beam and then seal the SIP seams properly. They also go up very fast. Off gassing isn't usually a problem with all the regulations about expanding foam now. By using regular stud wall construction you can easily run wiring, etc, and then insulate from the outside with rigid foam panels.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Jan 2016 08:04am
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Jabberwocky, I wasn't quite thinking Earthships. I think they are cool and a very interesting idea with lots of possibilities but not for me... I'm no Gopher !
I was thinking more of a semi earth-sheltered structure using natural hills as partial protection. In any case, I'd suggest wherever you build in that region that a Root Cellar / Shelter be a component in your plans...
Anyways, seems I took this topic on a slight detour, so maybe best to get back on topic.
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 12 Jan 2016 08:54am - Edited by: Jabberwocky
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rockies
I have looked into SIPanel construction, and as I recall, even found some pricing on the internet somewhere. It was going to be somewhere between a $5-10K premium over conventional methods. I felt it was worth it, but the floor plan we were designing was 1000 sq. ft. and we can't afford that (to live mortgage free).
We moved away from SIPs after we downsized again, because the following plan was to convert a storage shed type building. We decided that may be just a little bit too small for us to manage long-term, and right now we are hovering around 800 sq ft. due to my home office needs and the desire for a guest bedroom. We probably will still have to have a mortgage or loan of some kind to take the edge off, as we don't have enough put back to pay for it entirely outright.
Right now we are leaning towards a pre-fab cabin. There's a bit of risk involved simply because I have no prior experience with them, but I'm getting help here and elsewhere. If we change back to a stick built plan I will definitely consider the possibility of SIPs for the roof.
@ Steve_S: It's hard for me to know what kind of terrain I will have to utilize since I haven't purchased property yet, but I appreciate the suggestions. And yes, a storm shelter is an absolute must-have!
In fact, one of the pieces of property I am eyeing currently has a 30x50 pole barn converted to house on it that was mostly destroyed by a tornado. Here's a question someone may be able to answer: If I were to have someone come in and finish demolishing the building, could I use the slab as a foundation for say... a cabin kit? I'm sure the slab is poured at 4" deep as that's pretty standard around here. Also, having been a pole barn, it does not have footings, but was poured inside the post frame structure. The cabin kit would be smaller than the slab itself, so my question is, would the slab hold up to the weight of the perimeter walls or is that a recipe for disaster?
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Jan 2016 10:33am
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I would think that slab could handle a small building if it was properly done & is consistent in thickness. Having the slab extend beyond the building itself would provide an "instant deck" a parking pad for a carport etc... Options & Possibilities. If that was already converted, then you could likely reuse the septic and well without much issue & a BIG cost saving there !
Mounting to an existing slab could be tricky but the Mother of Invention is necessity and that's a bridge well crossed. There are many variations but kits like this Pole Barn surface mounting dry set post anchor Wood to Concrete Mount exist in many forms. Another company Socket Systems has many solutions that save time & money.
As for the Concrete Edges of the slab that exists now... that "maybe" could be cut off with a concrete saw to clean up... BUT that would require at having a good look at how the slab was poured and the footings set if any... never assume anything !
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 12 Jan 2016 05:42pm
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Steve, I guess it depends on what your definition of "small building" is. The cabin I have in mind is 837 sq ft and 2 story in the middle. What I had in mind was laying down 4x4s or 6x6s on the existing slab (depending on the total under-the-floor clearance needed for plumbing) and fastening them using concrete wedge anchors like you would a typical sill plate. The cabin kit I'm eyeing comes with 4x4 floor beams as well, which would be ran perpendicular to the first run of beams, and therefore would create, not a crawlspace, but an area under the floor that PEX plumbing and also electrical could be routed through. Since the slab would be quite a bit larger than the cabin, it would create, as you said, extra space for my wife's workshop, a deck, and simultaneously keep insects and moisture at bay. That would be ideal, but as I mentioned, I'm kind of concerned about the slab holding up to the weight of the cabin.
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rockies
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# Posted: 12 Jan 2016 10:57pm
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This is just a sample of pricing for SIP panels from one manufacturer.
http://www.acmepanel.com/sip-prices.asp
If your roof isn't crazy complicated you might be able to just order bare bones 4x8 foot panels. I would probably go with the 10 1/4 inch thick ones for the roof. That would be $172.80 per panel.
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2016 08:18am
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rockies
Yep, that's the website I obtained pricing from as well, although I was pricing a whole house, walls included.
At this moment (and this could change at a moment's notice) we are pretty much set on a certain prefab cabin kit.
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SouthParkMark
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2016 10:58pm
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Jabberwocky - Way off topic, but I can't find a way to PM, and your username seems unique. So I'll ask my quesion (way non-cabin related) you the same jabberwocky on inventorvillage around VHC?
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Jabberwocky
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2016 02:31pm
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SouthParkMark
Nope. Not me. I do go by Jabberwocky on some other sites, but never heard of that one.
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