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AKfisher
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 04:58pm
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New to the forum here, living up in Alaska. I have a question about cabin dimensions. I am thinking about building a 16' by 16' two story cabin on a footing/pier/sonnotube foundation.
First question - Why aren't' there many 16' by 16' cabins? I see a lot of 16 by 20 and 16 by 24, or 12 by 16 etc...
Second question - What is the better dimension in wood maximizations? 16 by 16 or a 16 by 24?
Thanks for your time!
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smallcabin
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 05:14pm - Edited by: smallcabin
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AK...welcome!
1st Question....to me it's a PERSONAL preference. I choose to go with a 16x24 because, to me...that's neither too big or too small for a cabin.  And also (again personal view) you may want to build your cabin as a BUYER point of view if you were to sell it down the road.
2nd Question....Am not sure what the maximization of materials would be...but in term of COST...16x16 would be a lot cheaper than 16x24.
Again...go with what you feel is comfortable for you and your family. I don't think there's a specific size that fits all.
Have fun building and let your imagination run wild.
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JJHess
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 05:16pm - Edited by: JJHess
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Welcome
First answer: probably because of how floor plans lay out but I've seen cabins of all sizes. Ours is 16'x40' with a sleeping loft. We have a bathroom, kitchen/eating room & living area on the 1st floor. 3 'bedrooms' on the 2nd floor. There are times when there are 16 of us up there depending on the hunting season so we needed the size.
2nd question. Both sizes work well for sheet goods but I'd go with 16'x24' myself.
Are you planning on building it yourself of buying a kit?
Where in AK are you located? I was up there last February for a few weeks to work (I'm in PA) in the Wasilla area. Took some time to drive to Talkeetna, Homer, Glenallen and a few other places. Saw lots of cabins & small homes.
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AKfisher
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 06:03pm
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I will be building it myself. It will either be a timberframe(ish) or a D log cabin. I am up in Talkeetna. I am starting to lean towards the 16 by 24 with high walls and a double loft.
Just for reference, we currently are in a 8 by 10 dry shabin, it is plumbed with propane lanterns and have a cook stove in it. It is very cozy to say the least...
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Just
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 06:27pm
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I.M.O. a square building is the most economical to build , and the roomiest to live in .. KEEP IT IN 2 FT. INCREMENTS ie. 16x16 18 x 18 , 20 x 20 ..
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 07:30pm
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A square!!!! THANK YOU for this thread! I've been wracking my brain with design trying to fit what I need and the sizes I need them into a rectangle.
A hat tip to you, Just. I didn't think at all about an 18X18 -- and it's PERFECT.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 07:53pm - Edited by: Don_P
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I don't think the framing cares much about length efficiency wise, as spans increase the cost adds up as members get deeper.
On a jobsite I do consider 7/16 osb to be little more than the cardboard part, it is the cheapest sheet good on the job. Often it seems like the layouts plotted so carefully to net good yield on 7/16" wall sheathing evaporates in the 5/8" roof sheathing layout. I always seem to find uses for any decent sized scrap though, landings, construction treads and risers, gussets, backing.
Watch member sizes, then floor and roof framing for sheet layout. Framing stacks up through the house vertically, stud over joist, rafter over stud. The roof has slope and overhangs which affect the sheet layouts as compared to the floor. All of it is a fraction of what you will spend on finish so I'm not sure that framing efficiency should play a huge role in design. Considered, backchecked, but not led by maybe.
Then my mind wanders to an instant no-no, never frame an 8' deck, or an even increment, always be a few inches under. You don't want to have to buy 10' deck boards to go on your 8' deck with a nice little overhang. Framing things a couple of inches shy of 2' increments is rarely wrong, hitting the 2' mark with framing can sometimes blow efficiency of materials later.
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pash
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 08:07pm
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Listen to Don_P good stuff in there. In mine I calculated stuff to fall either into 16's or 12's, just a hair short like is suggested above. True 16' metal is cheap, getting it rolled out to an non stock size isn't cheap, and cutting it just isnt fun. Thinking through stuff like that will save you money and frustration, as someone who has built tons of stuff, i still get caught not thinking of the inch and a half that a 2x4 takes up, and causes another run for a longer board. Best to plan well, and better to have to cut a board than for it to be too short.
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AKfisher
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 08:17pm
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Quoting: pash i still get caught not thinking of the inch and a half that a 2x4 takes up, and causes another run for a longer board. Best to plan well, and better to have to cut a board than for it to be too short.
Those 2 x 4 stretchers sure are hard to find now-a-days...
Good advice on building a few inches to a half a foot short as to not have to buy the larger dimension lumber.
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JJHess
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2015 09:39pm
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IMO, you should contact Dave with Techno Metal Post Alaska for your foundation, especially if you plan on having the cabin for years to come. He does a lot of retrofit work to cabins that had insufficient foundation support originally.
You may think the cost of a helical pile foundation (or any type of properly installed foundation for that matter) is expensive, but believe me the cost of repairing damage from frost heave is much more costly. Given where you are located, don't skimp on the most important but most overlooked aspect of building any structure.
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AKfisher
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2015 12:22pm
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I have talked with TMP before, it would cost about $410 to $420 per driven pier. I will likely need about 12-15 so that kind of money really adds up. I have overburden that is about 2.5 to 3 feet thick, below that is very nice gravel. I will likely just excavate about 5-6ft down and pour some footings and secure treated posts (railroad ties) to the footings and backfill.
If I build a 16' by 24' cabin but 8ft would be a porch that has a loft overhanging it. So the main living area would be 16x16, but with two lofts. The walls would probably be about 13' high to make the loft taller.
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OutdoorFanatic
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2015 07:49pm
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Why not go 16x32? You wont need to go up any stairs or ladders that way and you will have the same SF.
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AKfisher
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2015 08:23pm
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Quoting: OutdoorFanatic Why not go 16x32? You wont need to go up any stairs or ladders that way and you will have the same SF.
Building up would mean less foundation work. Up here in Alaska we need to generally get below frostline. Doing a 16x32 would double the piers or pilings. I also think heating the long cabin would be a chore when it is -20 unless there was two wood stoves at each end possibly. Heating a two story cabin would be a bit easier. I am also thinking of building up because we will have a light view of the Talkeetnas.
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Just
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2015 08:57pm - Edited by: Just
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Do you have permafrost ? Not sure if a basement an option but if it is could be cheep sq. ft. and a good foundation .
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OutdoorFanatic
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2015 09:52pm
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Quoting: AKfisher Building up would mean less foundation work. Up here in Alaska we need to generally get below frostline. Doing a 16x32 would double the piers or pilings. I also think heating the long cabin would be a chore when it is -20 unless there was two wood stoves at each end possibly. Heating a two story cabin would be a bit easier. I am also thinking of building up because we will have a light view of the Talkeetnas.
Ah, got ya. That makes a lot of sense.
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AKfisher
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2015 10:04pm
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Quoting: Just o you have permafrost ? Not sure if a basement an option but if it is could be cheep sq. ft. and a good foundation .
No perma frost. I could build a basement I think, should be dry enough even in the wet years. I need to price out the concrete, we are fairly remote and off the grid even tho we can drive to it.
how much concrete for a 16 x 16 basement?
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Don_P
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2015 10:41pm - Edited by: Don_P
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64 lf of wall x 8' tall =512sf x .66 (8" thick wall)=~340 cu ft/27 cuft/yd=~13yds in the walls
256sf slab x .33 (4" thick) -74 cu ft...~3 yds
Footing 16x8"x64' =~3.5 yds
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Just
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# Posted: 12 Nov 2015 10:55pm
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you could make some of the basement from pressure treated lumber, I think there may be some plans on line .
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2015 07:01am
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@ AKFisher Welcome to the Forum !
I've done the Nunavut thing so have some "Northern Experience" so let me put a couple of thoughts out there for you to ponder on.
More Wall surface & more roof surface = more heating surface to cover & more heat to distribute. Most efficient is a square structure. Building UP rather than out, also saves a pile in heat surface & works to your advantage. Cheaper to control a 20' wall than a 30' when the arctic wind hits it. Exposed surface of 20x20 will be less to heat than a 16x32.
The "Alaska Slab" or "Frost Protected Slab Foundation" is another option and that would provide a solid platform to build "up" on.
Basement ? first dig a 10' deep probe hole and see what's really down there. Pending on the actual spot you have, there would be quite a few possibilities for issues & problems. Any places around the area that you know of have a basement ? I never saw a residential basement in Nunavut or in NWT. Did see a couple, as such but they were in military facilities and the structures had deflection ribs & other things to protect the walls from external forces... Ice being the most patient powerful force on the planet...
Are you on a Seismically / Volcanically Active spot ? something to consider.
Do you know the usual direction of prevailing winds @ your build site ?
that would be good to know for the seasons so you can plan where not to put doors / windows or create "wind catches". imagine a porch on North Side where the prevailing winter winds come from @ -20, catching that and creating the vortex of cold at the porch.
There is a few Small House type projects being experimented with in Alaska & our Yukon with some really cool results and interesting innovations. Even some really creative materials recycling being incorporated. May be worth searching those up.
Do you have access to local lumber / milling, or does it have to be brought in ? What other materials are at hand on the property ? Is that something your considering using ?
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Borrego
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2015 10:41am
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I went with 24' x 24' and have enjoyed the results! I was able to get it spot on so that the ply for the subfloor came out just right, made everything easier and cheaper. Just do the math and do your own drawings before you start!
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AKfisher
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2015 01:12pm
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Quoting: Steve_S The "Alaska Slab" or "Frost Protected Slab Foundation" is another option and that would provide a solid platform to build "up" on.Basement ? first dig a 10' deep probe hole and see what's really down there. Pending on the actual spot you have, there would be quite a few possibilities for issues & problems. Any places around the area that you know of have a basement ? I never saw a residential basement in Nunavut or in NWT. Did see a couple, as such but they were in military facilities and the structures had deflection ribs & other things to protect the walls from external forces... Ice being the most patient powerful force on the planet...Are you on a Seismically / Volcanically Active spot ? something to consider.Do you know the usual direction of prevailing winds @ your build site ?that would be good to know for the seasons so you can plan where not to put doors / windows or create "wind catches". imagine a porch on North Side where the prevailing winter winds come from @ -20, catching that and creating the vortex of cold at the porch. There is a few Small House type projects being experimented with in Alaska & our Yukon with some really cool results and interesting innovations. Even some really creative materials recycling being incorporated. May be worth searching those up.
I have a good idea on placement for the structure. We get next to no wind up there which is nice, and good sun in the spring. Sun is generally too low in the dead of winter. So the windows and doors will be facing the correct direction.
I don't know much about the Alaska Slab. Is it a mono slab, say around 4" and reinforced with rebar or mesh?
We dug a deep (12') hole for the porta john, there is about 3' of clay loam on top and great gravel after that. Do you think we would just strip some overburden off, add some gravel and then lay a slab on it?
I am still thinking a 16x16 two story or a 16x24 one in a half story (double loft).
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 13 Nov 2015 05:09pm
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If you have clay loam (organics) to 3' then gravel, I'd go to the gravel and build up from there with hard packed gravel and lay in a slab on top of it. Drainage always to the southern face ! Alaska Slab is another name for FPSF (Frost Protected Slab Foundation).
NEVER USE SAND or soft packing under a slab, especially in cold climes. It MUST be hard packed and stable. Many early slabs like this were done with sand or other mediums in the centre "hump (floor)" which gaveway resulting in cracks and slab shift. It cannot subside ever, therefore is must be hard packed.
XPS Foam should be continuous |___/------slab bottom---\___| and covered with sealed 6 mil Poly, taped & with Accousti-Seal on seams with 6" overlap. Then Mesh & across top with rebar perimeter.
REF ARTICLE: GreenBuilding Advisor Detail
This is my own FPSF Slab built with CMHC Spec (Canadian Mortgage & Housing Corp)
Hope that helps.
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