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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2015 05:03am
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So, I should have been moving onto my land and building by now instead of nursing a SLOW-healing surgical infection and fistula. Needless to say, I won't be moving for months. But I WILL be going up in September to walk the land with my choice of excavation/septic people, meet with county folks, do some sketches, etc.
I started rethinking. I had planned to put whatever septic system is required in AFTER the foundation and cabin shell were built. But would it actually make more sense to put the septic system in FIRST?
Here's my new train of thought: I'm going to buy a used RV to live in while the work is being done. As we all know, the RV greywater and blackwater tanks are small and I'd have to frequently haul them to some campground to empty. But if the septic system was in, I could connect my camper to the septic system and have that convenience.
And, of course, with the foundation and septic already done/inspected, the cabin shell and plumbing could be built and inspected fairly quickly. At that point, I would be able to get a temporary occupancy permit to live in the cabin and work on the rest at a more leisurely pace.
Is this possible? Does it make sense? What would be the potential pitfalls? I read on the county website that you're only permitted to install a sand filter septic system in June-October but I'm going to try to avoid that type at all costs. I haven't read about time of year restrictions on installing any other type of septic systems. Does anyone know of any? Once issued, the septic installation permit is good for a year.
Thanks for any and all insights!
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Don_P
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2015 07:17am
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Oh I feel for you, what a pain in the... (I'm sure you've heard all the jokes) Hope your back to "normal" soon.
First concern is getting elevations right, make absolutely certain "it" flows downhill cause it's real expensive to pump it. The next is protecting the tank and field... which should be done anyway. I have pulled a truck out of the tank... after I warned the driver. We've had it in prior a few times, even hooked up a toilet in the basement a couple of times and avoided having to rent the little shack out back.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2015 08:04am - Edited by: bldginsp
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Best wishes with your health Julie.
Absolutely, get your underground done and out of the way first. When they do it, it's a huge mess and they need a large area to put all the dirt they dug up. When they are done it's nice and smooth but during the process it is ugly. Best to do this before anything else is taking place. And, as you said, you will then have it to use with your RV. Don's advice about slope and vehicles is right on- so one problem is that while building the house there will be times when there are several trucks on site delivering materials or whatever, that's when someone might park on the tank. But it's easy to put up a barrier and even a sign, NO PARKING.
On all construction sites, the contractor looks forward to the day he can 'get out of the dirt' and focus on what's up above. The sooner the better.
One little bright spot in this- your septic drain field will end up being a bare, empty flat piece of land which looks kind of bad. But, you get to choose what will grow there. It's best to have small plants (without large roots) growing on the drain field to keep the soil from compacting and allowing oxygenation. On my drain field, for some reason over a hundred little cedar trees started up. Can't let those grow, so I pulled them all up this spring. It was then I noticed that there were also lots of deerbrush starting, along with native rose, a dogwood or two and other small plants, which I left. Deerbrush feeds the deer and flowers in spring, native rose makes rosehips, and dogwoods will eventually flower and make seeds to feed the birds. So my drainfield is going to become a native flower bed.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2015 09:30pm - Edited by: Littlecooner
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Julie, glad you are recovering and planning on the move.
To answer your question - YES !!! Do the septic tank first thing. I am 4000 miles from your site so its a "world away", but here are some bits and pieces to consider. I spend a few minutes in the Oregon rules located at
http://www.deq.state.or.us/regulations/rules.htm
Number one - make sure your installer provides an effluent filter in the outlet to the septic tank. These are a $ 65-75 item that prevents any solids from entering the field lines. They will last forever if you keep the tree roots away from the field lines and with a filter in place .
Number two - looks like min size of septic tank is 1100 gallons. You can not fight city hall here, this is a proven "need" for a property system that is almost universal in the lower 48.
Number three - depending on your type of soil and depth of cover, the required length of field lines would run from 150 feet to 375 feet. The minimum sizing of these lines for a single family dwelling is 450 linear feet. In my area, the use of a plastic chamber know as "infiltrator" receives a 40 % reduction in the length needed. Even if you are not provided a reduction (could not find that area in the regs a few minutes ago) you need to make sure you use this product. Nothing better on the market less that the more expensive sand bed you mentioned.
Why now, you can use it for the RV. AND - some sites have areas suitable for field lines and areas that are not. DETERMINE where you can install this first as it could cause you to adjust the location of your cabin on the lot. Then you can place the RV close to the septic tank and help block the "hired help" from driving the loaded truck over the septic tank during construction. Most of the water in a well used system actually percolates to the surface, the reason the grass is greener over the field lines, go ahead and get some vegetation established over the field line, grass of your choice. Keep us informed and good luck. I saw that a permit is now $ 680 in the regs.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 3 Jul 2015 10:40pm
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Littlecooner- if the water "percolates to the surface" the system has failed. The water in the drain lines should go down only. In a properly operating system the water is cleaned as it passes downward thru the first 6 feet of earth on its way to the water table. When the soil eventually becomes clogged (the eventual fate of all drainfields) then the water has no where to go but up and that's when things get dangerous.
But perhaps I took your comment too literally- i think what you meant is that the grass sends its roots down and pulls water up. Grass is always greener over the ****. This is good because it keeps the soil loose so it can aerate. If no oxygen at all gets to the drain field it doesn't process the waste as well.
I heartily agree with all else you said
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 02:28am
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Regarding materials, it's going to depend on the site evaluation and the perc testing showing what sort of system or alternative technology I'll be installing. I'm not there yet. If it does turn out that the land tests indicate a sand filter, I'll go with Puraflo, which doesn't require a big drainfield and will give me more flexibility in siting my cabin, driveway, other buildings and won't require a bunch of tree/root removal.
Remember that the Administrative Rules are "one size fits all" except when the size doesn't fit. And then there are other rules that apply. The particular counties have the administrative authority for their jurisdictions UNLESS they don't have an Onsite Department, in which case the state DEQ acts on their behalf. That permit fee you cited, LittleCooners? That's just the state's fee. The total fee comes to much more than that, sigh. The county gets a lot.
Gah, trying to figure out the rules was driving me nuts so I actually CALLED the On Site Division for the DEQ in Salem and the Director called me back. Her answer? Whatever Klamath County decides is what I need. And if I want to apply a technology that the state approves, then I need to apply for a variance with the County and if they'll let me I can.
Honest to God, if I could handle living on the northeastern side of the state where it snows like hell and gets crazy-cold, I would have moved there and not even needed a freaking building permit. Composting toilet, a Biolan greywater system, and I'd have been in business, waste-wise. But I digress ...  
My land is mostly level toward the road; there are clearings in the front third of the property but the land becomes quite forested and there's a slight incline beginning about halfway in.
It leaves me with an interesting dilemma, then, based on all of the great insights you guys have provided. If the land tests reveal that a pretty much standard septic system will be fine (or, possibly, a holding tank/drain field combo that the county onsite tech said *might* be OK'd for my tiny cabin), do I locate it in the front of the property, where the land is level and already clear then build the cabin in the forested, higher area? Of course, I'd have to be really, really creative with the LONG driveway to the cabin and make dang well sure no one drives over the septic system EVER!
Or do I clearcut (UGH!) a bunch of trees and remove the stumps and a bunch of earth in the back, forested section for the septic system and use the earth to build up the clearings in the front to CREATE a higher place on which to build the cabin and, thus, a slight descent to the septic system in the back?
Honestly, I think that the first option is probably the most feasible since my land backs right up to BLM forest. Keeping trees from sprouting up in the drainfield back there would probably be a constant (and losing) battle. But I don't know.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 09:15am - Edited by: Gary O
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon Composting toilet, a Biolan greywater system, and I'd have been in business, waste-wise
Since you have a bit of time, you might want to check with the feds. 10 yrs ago their regs overruled state/county septic restrictions in regard to composting toilets.
The county here didn't offer up that tidbit, but the fed's regs were quite clear....they promoted composting hoppers for back to the landers at that time
My thoughts are a bit fuzzy on it all, but worth a check.
reminds me, that bucket ain't gonna empty itself....
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 4 Jul 2015 11:29pm
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Will do, Gary O!!!! Thanks!!!!
The county told me that I could use a composting toilet but I'd still need a septic system. So, it's like, what's the point, you know? If I'm spending many thousands of dollars on a septic system, I'm going to get my money's worth!!! I'll buy lots of different kinds of beans, too!!!! Just kidding, lol.
My builder of choice in Eugene (and others) said that in the western counties near Idaho, they don't care what you do. LOL, when I first contacted him, his first two questions were, "What county are we talking about?" and "Is this a legal build or in a place off the government radar? I do both so it doesn't matter to me." It varies SO MUCH across the state!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2015 12:13am - Edited by: bldginsp
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It's no skin off the contractor's nose if you build without permits and then you get caught and red tagged. He still gets paid, at least as much as you paid him before the pencil wielding inspector showed up. Then, contractor leaves, on to the next job (permit or not), and the owner gets to deal with the mess. I've seen it too many times. Permits are an expensive PITA, but make life easier in the long run. (Did I just earn my pension?) 
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Don_P
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2015 06:51am
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That may be true there, it certainly isn't here. If I am caught building a home without a permit, there goes my license, no license no valid contract, no contract no pay.
What's a pension
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Gary O
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2015 07:15am
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon The county told me that I could use a composting toilet but I'd still need a septic system. So, it's like, what's the point, you know?
Figgers
Yes, in that case, yer money's worth
Well, I'm sure enjoyin' the views from bldginsp and Don_P, especially the asides.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2015 11:00am
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More aside When the contractor I spoke of above loses his license, the owner is in a pickle. There is an assessment tacked onto my license fee, a "recovery fund" that all of us pay into. This, in theory, helps the owner get the project rolling again. The assesment did go up last time I renewed. Kind of funny, I rarely fail an inspection yet somehow pay for the fly by nighters. I also suspect that not many pickled owners know that recourse exists, partially to keep that assessment as low as possible, nobody said life was fair we're just all in the mud together. (It rains more here, I'm happy to get "out of the mud")
Our field did the percolating to the surface thing. A root had rotted and short circuited a path across the trenches. We had a new field laid out and approved, our county guys are free and nice. They came out for the diagnosis and repair of the exisiting field, ran different colors of tracing dye till we found the problem and were down in the trenches getting dirty, I cannot speak highly enough of these government employees, there are good ones. We are doing watchful waiting and if it fails again we have a plan in place... something to think about. Julie, the pasture site for the field sounds good to me but there are other factors you'll have to weigh in that.
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Bzzzzzt
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2015 12:50pm
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Julie, how far out is your land? I had the idea from other posts if yours that it was rather remote. Having to have inspections and a certificate of occupancy seems a little restrictive for a cabin in the woods. I wish you well in your endeavors.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2015 01:30pm
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Don- in Spain, a pension is a cheap hotel. In the US, a pension is barely enough money to live in a cheap hotel. 
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 5 Jul 2015 11:30pm
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Quoting: Bzzzzzt Julie, how far out is your land? I had the idea from other posts if yours that it was rather remote. Having to have inspections and a certificate of occupancy seems a little restrictive for a cabin in the woods. I wish you well in your endeavors.
It's quite remote, Bzzzzzt. It's in the woods on a mountain! Very few people up there and about 28 miles from the county seat, which is the closest city with a population of about 20K. County people don't come up to the mountain on their own, and very delayed, even when called.
But one of the few people could always call the county and say, "hey, did you know someone moved in up here?" Of course, I want the county official to say, "Yep, we do, she's following procedures!" Heh.
Thanks for the good wishes!
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 12:44am
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DonP and bldginsp,
I'm totally on board with the dwelling codes. But the septic regs burn my biscuits because they don't reflect the technology and new products out there that those of us in small, off-grid cabins could be using. Things that were developed for places around the world with high einvironmental standards, plus limited land, water, and energy availability. Some of it has been developed for places like Africa that desperately need proper sanitation but suffer from drought, poor soils, no water to spare and limited, if any electricity.
When it comes to energy and computer technology, the US is on board with changes but using other types of technology comes at a snail's pace. I suspect that as more people require off-grid solutions, codes will be expanded. Perhaps there will even be a subsection devoted to off-grid and small-structure septic design. There should be. Digging up forested acreage for drainfields that can fail because of root systems isn't productive when alternative technologies clean effluent to the point of not even requiring a large drainfield.
Anyhoo, I guess I wasn't clear in the anecdotate about my contractor. I was trying to describe how the regulatory situation depended on what county you're in. Shoot, one of the county officials said the same thing to me, specifically that before the sue-happy Californians started building them there, Klamath County wasn't big on regulations/permits for cabins, either. He said 30 years ago, I could have built what I wanted and used common sense. It's still that way in the far eastern side of the state. For now, at least.
Well, I'll see how the land percs and take it from there. I think it would be wise to have test pits dug in the clearing AND in the wooded areas to see if there's any difference.
I don't want to build the cabin too far into the wooded sections, either, because with the hundreds of acres of deeply wooded BLM recreational land behind me, the cabin would be at much greater fire risk and I'd be far from my only road out!
So much to take into consideration.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Jul 2015 08:25am
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Julie- Very wise of you to do thorough research ahead of time. You won't regret it.
I can see how frustrating it is with dealing with the septic regs. Just from my 10 years experience in public service, I can tell you its going to be a long time before they start to approve alternative septic solutions. Nobody wants to be the early adopter that implemented a system that failed. Doesn't help you much, sorry, it's just the inertia of the situation.
And excuse me if I was sarcastic about your contractor. Sounds like you are protecting yourself so you won't be left holding the bag from a flake who doesn't care.
Doesn't surprise me that Klamath is tighter on regs than they used to be. I'm just south of you near Lassen National Park and the counties here have tightened things up in the last few decades. They are very good to work with and reasonable, but think they have to apply the building codes and health codes pretty consistently.
The California State Board of Health tried in recent years to implement statewide even more strict septic system requirements than what you and I are required to do. They wanted to require that all septics be installed with a soils engineer's oversight (more than a perc test) and that the drainfield be monitored at owner's expense every two years. These kinds of regs are necessary in high density areas like Santa Barbara and Santa Cruz where there are a lot of septic systems in close proximity in poor soil conditions. They have serious problems in those areas, but applying the same solutions that are necessary there to rural areas of low density such as where you and I are does not make sense. The county Health officials from rural northern counties protested, and the State backed down.
Point is that there are real influences trying to make things more "safe," or "foolproof" or "better", or just plain more complicated. Their perception of you would be that you want to make the regulations more lax, that while you might maintain your alternative system the person who moves in after you sell will not, blah blah blah. "What? Use some African septic system? This is the United States! We're not going backward, we are going forward!!!" or something like that.
So I just bit the bullet and put in a standard septic, and an oversized one as well, and now they won't bug me, and I have a low maintenance effective system. That's my take.
Keep us posted! Got pics?
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 02:23am
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bldginsp,
Yeah, I'll be biting my nails until the perc tests are done and the results are in, lol. I'm pretty much preparing for the worst because, at my elevation, it's probably 65-35 in favor of sand filter/capping fill septic, sigh. (I actually found a contractors' website where you could see the permits issued in an area!) Maybe I'll be lucky. But that's why I've done so much research and I'm prepared with my alternative -- Puraflo.
These pics are more than a year old, but here's my land and the clearings I was talking about:
Lot5_2.jpg
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Lot5.jpg
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Lot5_3.jpg
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 02:32am
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I was going to put my cabin in one of those clearings. As you can see, it's very forested beyond the clearings. So, if they require TWO drainfields (one in reserve), there goes both of my clearings for septic and a lot of trees are going to have to come down for my cabin, other buildings, and fire perimeter.
Gah, but looking at my land pics, I really CAN'T WAIT to get there!!!!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 08:43am
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Looks nice. Are you familiar with the need to thin brush for fire safety? Looks like you've got a buildup of ground fuels. Where I am there is a fire safe council, they organize and finance thinning projects. They just completed 2 acres on my place. I feel much better about my chances to survive a fire now.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 12:28pm
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Yes. I believe you want to take the lower limbs off the trees in the perimeter, too, right? A lot will be taken care of in the course of building, putting in the driveway, etc. Then the rest will be tackled. I only have 2.5 acres.
I forgot to write that I'm glad you all were able to fend off those uber-restrictive regs, bldginsp! Geez, what a pain that could have been. I wonder what sort of new regulations the drought emergencies will bring? That's why I'm super-eager to get up there, get my permits and start building. I know I can't hurry up the healing, BUT ...
Waiting too long could prove costly.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Jul 2015 07:46pm
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The drought may bring new regulations/taxes/fees on wells. I recently drilled a well, and may have to eventually pay a regular 'fee', or 'tax', for its use. I'm sure libertarians are going to love this one. My water on my land is my business.
Problem is, in some places agricultural wells are dropping the water table level so far that residential wells are going dry. This points to the fact that the water table is shared just like the air we all breathe. So how do you regulate it fairly so families get what the need rather than for-profit farming taking it just for themselves? Is taxing my well, which is far from any ag wells on a remote hillside, the solution to problems in the valleys where there are lots of people and farms?
After the third beer I can't do the math anymore so I don't care.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 8 Jul 2015 03:53am
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Yeah, agricultural use takes precedence. I'm not sure how that works in Oregon but there's some bit about visiting with the water master or some such person. It won't affect me on the mountain since there isn't any ag use up there and not many folks living there full-time, relatively speaking.
It's an interesting area, chockfull of springs. The native people settled there and named the places for the multitude of springs and water. They still live nearby on tribal lands.
At lower elevations, water is quite accessible because of the springs. There is plenty of water in the mountain but drilling a well could be expensive because you don't know where it is or how deep you have to go to hit it. I'm not sure how to approach a well so I'm not going to do that for now.
Down here in the Southwest, they want to start taxing solar panels in use. I believe that Arizona is already doing that. SMH. It's getting unbelievable. I'm surpised they haven't taxed air if you in hale too deeply!
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