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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2015 09:46
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Thanks Guys... a bit of Info Overload...
I doubt that the stove I have is a big gas user, it did come out of a 21' Terry Taurus Mobile, which also had a propane water heater, Duo-Therm 659 furnace & Gas/Electric Dometic RM-660 Fridge.
I have time yet but soon I'll have to tackle this. My one big concern is the Stove Line which has to travel from the outside South Wall in, over a doorway (washroom where water heater is) then down & to the stove. The only way I see that working for me is with Copper... BUT I do not want to embed that within a wall, I was thinking of surface mounting it and then building a small wood channel/conduit to cover over the line.. that would hide it while also protecting it from bumps & whatnot and keeping it easy to access in case of changes down the road.
I'm heavily leaning towards the Iron 3/4 -> 1/2 then to brass couplers connecting the copper lines to iron.
On the outside of the cabin I have to ponder the routing as I have a 5' door that will be in the way, so it means running the Iron Pipe essentially at ground level... Something to figure when I get to that point.
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morock
Member
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2015 22:38
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I'm in Ontario too and just finished piping my place. I use black pipe 1/2 inch and then ran these appliance connectors to all the appliances.
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B000BQM4B6/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_2?pf_rd_p=1977604522& pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00GALDHMG&pf_rd_m=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&pf_rd_ r=126SAD46MZANC5RE90RR
I put a shut off either at the pipe Tee or on the appliance connection. I think these are the yellow pipes Steve is refering too. It was super easy as the flex pipes come with two adapters so mating up to everything was simple.
I did have help from a retired gas fitter. 
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 20 Jul 2015 20:09 - Edited by: bobrok
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TO WRAP UP THIS THREAD:
Quoting: bldginsp I would use dielectric fittings at all joints of copper to iron.
Quoting: bldginsp I would be very concerned about the connections between iron trunk lines and the copper branches.
Quoting: MtnDon Way back at the beginning of this thread there was concern about galvanic issues. Personal opinion is this is not really an issue. We've been transitioning from iron to brass to copper for decades using standard thread together fittings.
I plan on black iron>brass>copper. From what I find brass>copper is not a problem. How about black iron>brass
Charts give a little more distance BTW these two metals, but you think I'm good, right?
Quoting: bldginsp I'd go with using 1/2" just to the stove and heater just to be on the safe side
OK, this leads to a BIG question for me. These two appliances currently have 3/8" to their intakes. Are you suggesting that I need to plumb 1/2" directly to each unit (using a reducer fitting right at the point of connection)? If I t-off my trunk line with 1/2" (which I will do for these two appliances) and if I reduce down to 3/8" just below the subfloor and before the vertical line to the appliance (which will prolly be less than 12") am I STILL reducing the gas flow? Are you suggesting that I need to keep 1/2" line right up to the intake of these two appliances? (At this point I'm not there and can't tell you what the intake size is for these units). In other words, does this mean running 1/2" iron pipe thru the subfloor right up to the units?
Quoting: MtnDon CSST (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing)
Quoting: MtnDon the need to install striker plates when passing the tubing through studs and restraining the tubing with clips
So can I use this for that 12" or so connection so I don't have do mess around with pipe thru the floor?
Isn't this kind of like using flex tubing from the tank to the trunk line?
Here's a modified version of my gas lines to reduce trunk/t's/distance, if this matters at all.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 22 Jul 2015 15:14
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Hoping I'm not a pest, but I'd like to bump this if its OK. Due to a lot of recent activity on scf I'm afraid I got lost way down on these pages and I had a couple more questions.
Thanks!
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 22 Jul 2015 17:40
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Bobrok- MtDon might be right that these copper to iron connections do not corrode, I don't know. And, yes you can drop pipe size down for the last foot or two. A short length of slightly undersized pipe will not introduce enough resistance to matter. It's over the longer lengths that it matters. Protect your copper pipe as well as you can, but you prolly know that already.
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 22 Jul 2015 17:52
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ya. i would go black iron because it is cheap. and it can go through walls and what not and survive a beating if that should happen.
thx mtndon for pointing out csst is code now. i wuz told I needed black iron through walls or floors.
just outta interest. a friend of mine up north aways had critters chew through his csst. the yellow coated stuff. weird eh.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 23 Jul 2015 15:42
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Quoting: bldginsp Bobrok- MtDon might be right that these copper to iron connections do not corrode, I don't know.
I am at our cabin. Curiosity got the best of me. I disassembled a black iron pipe to brass gas valve connection I made in 2009. No evidence of corrosion. Reassembled with Rectorseal. Still gas tight. That said I can not say what is or is not code... can't find a reference.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 23 Jul 2015 16:16
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Section 310.6 of the California Plumbing Code, which is taken from the IAPMO plumbing model code, says that any mixing of dissimilar metals must be in an accessible location. That way you can observe where the gas leak is coming from just before your house explodes. No seriously I guess the code writers are acknowledging that it is a problem sometimes, but not always, so as far as they are willing to go on requirements is to prevent you from enclosing such a joint in a wall or other inaccessible location where it can't easily be observed.
I think I read that corrosion only occurs between dissimilar metals when electrical current runs across them, which is possible anywhere but more likely with water pipes perhaps, because water is conductive? I don't know, just shooting in the dark on this one.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 23 Jul 2015 21:04
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I can't thank all you guys enough for the advice. I'm getting educated and brave enough to start this now.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 23 Jul 2015 21:13
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Quoting: bldginsp I think I read that corrosion only occurs between dissimilar metals when electrical current runs across them, which is possible anywhere but more likely with water pipes perhaps, because water is conductive? I don't know, just shooting in the dark on this one.
Moisture is also a factor in thar 2 dissimilar metals in the presence of an electrolyte = a battery. IE, you do not need an external power source. Gas piping is dry, or at least has no liquid water inside. So should have loe probability for corrosion betwwe metals.
In theory and in practice for 6 years in my example.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 23 Jul 2015 22:19 - Edited by: bldginsp
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Bobrok- I think you should boldly attach any and all copper, brass, bronze and anything else with copper in it directly to your plain raw iron pipe in stark defiance of my whining protests- Damn the electrolysis, Full speed ahead!
But, leave the connections accessible, where you can get at them to look at them. Then if there is any question, it can be readily answered.
Did you know that if you have copper flashings on your roof, and the rainwater that drips off the copper flashing hits iron, it will cause it to corrode? (Just to confuse the issue a little bit more)
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jul 2015 08:38
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Screw all this whining advice and damn all concern for things about which I do not know.
I've boldly decided to make all my connections with duct tape.
I know all about duct tape.
I'm going with what I know.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jul 2015 08:50
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thanks bob
it's rather difficult to breathe when passing coffee thru one's nose
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jul 2015 09:09
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Duct Tape ! RED GREEN RULES TO THS DAY !!! YeeeHaw ! Where did I put those plans for that Duct Tape & old Tire lounge chair ?
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 24 Jul 2015 15:19
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My grandfather was an expert with stucco patch and baling wire. Following in the fine family tradition, I would NEVER be caught dead without my duct tape and auto body filler. I'd rather be caught dead with 3 day old underwear.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 9 Sep 2015 19:40 - Edited by: bobrok
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Could someone find and repost the information for that inexpensive ($12-$15) gas pressure test gauge that we recently discussed. Can't remember the name brand. Lowes doesn't even sell them.
I'm getting nowhere with the search function and I'm ready to do this job.
I only want something inexpensive for my initial use. The system will be retested when the propane dealer comes to swap out the tank regulator.
I just want to be comfortable in the fact that I don't have a major flaw beforehand so that I don't waste his time when he gets here.
TY
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2015 09:29
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I made my own test gauge. Bought a low pressure gauge 0-20psi. Bought the fitting to attach to a 1/2" T, along with the fitting to attach a bike pump valve. hooked it on the end of my 1/2 Piping and pumped it up to 10psi. 24hrs later still at 10psi and I capped it and called it good.
TSC had all I needed for about $15
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2015 09:45
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Quoting: FishHog I made my own test gauge. Bought a low pressure gauge 0-20psi. Bought the fitting to attach to a 1/2" T, along with the fitting to attach a bike pump valve. hooked it on the end of my 1/2 Piping and pumped it up to 10psi. 24hrs later still at 10psi and I capped it and called it good. TSC had all I needed for about $15
I knew I had read this back somewhere in a thread. I had forgotten to mention it, though.
Big 'ol thank you, FishHog, for the info.
Can't seem to find one on a shelf anywhere around me. I believe I'm going to DIY this just as you've done.
Thanks, again!! Have a great day!
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2015 10:11 - Edited by: FishHog
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my pleasure
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 18 Sep 2015 17:13
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Hey folks, I've been at my camp working on my project for a few days now. Got the trunks hung, capped and tested, air pressure and water column. Passed with flying colors. Due to a total mixup with the propane service I was forced to have them come and swap out my regulator for a newer one and install the line from the tank to the trunk before I finished making all my appliance connections. Will just have to repeat this process one more time, but based on how things are going I am not expecting problems. Famous last words, I know.
Anyway the point of my post is this. Having disassembled the old 3/8" system in its entirety I find have several 10' + lengths of tubing that are in pretty good shape. Sweeping curves, no sharp bends, no kinks, and they are laying here begging to be reused. As happens, I have need for a couple of 10' connections for gas lights.
After checking for integrity, straightening these and re-flaring the ends is there any reason not to reuse them?
If consensus says 'yes' my followup question is: can I use copper cleaner to restore some cleanliness since some of the lengths of these will be visible from inside.
Thanks.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 18 Sep 2015 17:14
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Hey folks, I've been at my camp working on my project for a few days now. Got the trunks hung, capped and tested, air pressure and water column. Passed with flying colors. Due to a total mixup with the propane service I was forced to have them come and swap out my regulator for a newer one and install the line from the tank to the trunk before I finished making all my appliance connections. Will just have to repeat this process one more time, but based on how things are going I am not expecting problems. Famous last words, I know.
Anyway the point of my post is this. Having disassembled the old 3/8" system in its entirety I find have several 10' + lengths of tubing that are in pretty good shape. Sweeping curves, no sharp bends, no kinks, and they are laying here begging to be reused. As happens, I have need for a couple of 10' connections for gas lights.
After checking for integrity, straightening these and re-flaring the ends is there any reason not to reuse them?
If consensus says 'yes' my followup question is: can I use copper cleaner to restore some cleanliness since some of the lengths of these will be visible from inside.
Thanks.
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 18 Sep 2015 19:20
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no reason not to in my mind. And in my cabin that I did exactly that this summer. Sometimes old copper can be more difficult to flare. If it gives you difficulty, you might want to anneal it. Heat red hot, dip in water and it will be soft again and flare easier.
Brasso will clean it up nicely.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 20 Sep 2015 18:47
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Thanks for the info FishHog!
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 21 Sep 2015 22:52
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Just another question from this DIYer to the more experienced members.
Are all propane appliances rated to be used at the same pressure? I hope I'm wording this correctly.
I've read about drop tests and recommended 11" WC. Is this a standard measurement for all propane appliances? I have a household stove and heater, but I've also installed an RV hot water heater.
Do RV appliances require different operating pressure than household appliances?
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 21 Sep 2015 23:23
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All household and RV propane appliances are designed to be connected to a supply line with 11" WC. Some appliances have an additional integral regulator.
Things like camp stoves and lanterns that run off 1 lb. propane cylinders run at a higher pressure.
Natural gas runs lower pressure at about 7"
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 21 Sep 2015 23:36 - Edited by: bobrok
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I did my own air pressure test. 10 lbs for 10 minutes as a rule of thumb. I had 10 lbs for a couple hours.
The propane company then came and installed a new regulator at the tank and new supply line to my 1/2" pipe. After that the installer ran the drop test with his manometer device, adjusted the regulator, and called it good.
But the reading on the glass tube was "4", right where he said it should be. I should have asked him what "4" meant.
Was that 4" WC? That doesn't sound correct and it doesn't make sense to me.
Boo on me for not asking.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 22 Sep 2015 14:32
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No idea what his "4" means. But an appliance will not function at that low a pressure.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 22 Sep 2015 16:29
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From what I've read when reading the WC scale on the tube you are supposed to double the number to get actual reading, since a rise on one side represents an equal fall on the other side.
If this is correct then the reading of his device should actually be "8", or perhaps 8"WC.
That still doesn't make any sense to me, so I'm going to call and ask them to explain their test and results.
I'll let you know.
I owe you, MtnDon, because back when we were talking about galvanic corrosion you actually took the time to disassemble one of your own fittings, check on any possible corrosion, and report your findings in your own situation at your cabin. I appreciated that.
Stay tuned...
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 29 Sep 2015 15:07
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I'm finished, inspected, passed, and up and running.
After having 2 water column drop tests and a conversation with the owner of the propane company I understand how to perform a drop test, or at least the way they do it.
First, with all appliances shut off we pressurize and adjust the system to 11"WC.
At this point the regulator will lock. This is a safety feature to prevent over-pressurization and a blow out.
Thus, the 11"WC reading determines only that you are maintaining this pressure from the tank to the regulator. Since its locked the test thus far does not determine anything beyond this point. At 11"WC your locked regulator passes and is performing normally.
Next, we open a release valve on the regulator, dropping pressure and unlocking it. If you listen during this test you can hear the click of the regulator locking and unlocking.
Now, with the regulator unlocked, the entire system is equally pressurized from the tank. At this point we readjust the regulator so that we read between 8" and 9"WC. This now becomes the operating pressure of the whole system, and explains the "4" reading I was seeing. Remember, you double that number, so I was at 8"WC.
Thinking about it, you'd have to have less than 11"WC constant in order for the system to work without locking up that regulator. They told me that between 8" and 9"WC is where I should be under normal operating conditions.
So anyway, that's what I was told and that's how they tested me out.
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bobrok
Member
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# Posted: 4 May 2016 17:28
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I made a decision to resurrect this from last year rather than start a new topic. This way everything is nice and neat if anyone ever wants to review it.
Anyway, everything is performing spectacularly, especially the part about me no longer bumping the old rack of tubing every time I crawl under the camp.
Now this spring I am adding another gas light for convenience and I went to the big box store that has the blue signs to pick up another 20' roll of 3/8" OD soft copper tube for this job. The only thing I could find was something called 'type UT' and I'm not sure what the heck it is. The brand is 'JMF Company' and it's (of course) from China.
For the life of me I don't remember the type of tubing I bought last year from the same chain.
Is this OK to use?
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