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bobrok
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2015 05:32pm
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Some time ago I participated in a thread about propane gas piping/sizing and was convinced that I needed to re-do my own fragile system (probably undersized and definitely hanging by a thread under my camp).
I'm ready to start this project in hopes of being able to have the new system working before the fall.
There are a few questions I'd like to ask before I get started.
Background:
My camp is 20' wide and I have appliances in the middle and at both ends, so gas will have to be run the full length underneath. My gas appliances include heater and refrigerator (in the middle), RV hot water heater (at one end), cookstove/oven (at opposite end), and 3 lighting fixtures scattered throughout with the possbility of adding a fourth. The tank is located outside at the stove end of the camp. Based on illustrations I've seen the tank size is 120 gallons (420 lbs).
Right now everything is run off the regulator via 3/8" copper tubing, with no main trunk. Everything seems to have been cobbled together or added on, with t's off of t's.
Funny, everything works, but the time has come to update this rigged up system.
I plan to use 1/2" black iron pipe for a trunk and hang it at a good midpoint so that each line I t-off will be approximately the same length to its respective appliance. I'm going to assemble the trunk line so that the t's are perpendicular and in alignment with each appliance and then reconnect the existing copper tubing from the appliance but in a more direct and straightforward manner. Thus all of the 3/8" runs will be shortened considerably and all of them will certainly be straighter and more direct to the trunk.
I have the bending tools and flaring tools needed to move and reattach the tubing. I've done this before.
Here are my questions:
1) Should the trunk line run the entire length underneath the camp? Could I cap the trunk somewhere past the middle appliances (say about 2/3 of the way down) instead of running it the full length and then continue with separate 3/8" lines for the few additional feet to the far end hot water heater and 1 gas light? This would be the one exception to my rule on the short runs, but really would add only one or two feet of 3/8" measured diagonally vs. perpendicularly to these two appliances. Reason being to save headroom underneath the one end of the building.
2) How far should I extend the trunk line beyond the last t-offs, or can it be capped just beyond them?
In other words is there a need to maintain back pressure on a gas line as you would air pressure on a forced air (heating) trunk line? Don't think so but have to ask.
3) I'll be using brass adapter fittings from the iron pipe to the copper tubing. Should I be concerned about galvanic corrosion? Should I use plastic straps to fasten the pipe and tube to the underside of the camp for this same reason?
Somewhere in an old thread (couldn't find it) I had read about galvanic corrosion, but from what I can determine this applies more to a water connection than to a propane gas connection. My connections will be iron pipe to brass to copper.
4) Will I need to change the tank regulator with the increase in line size or can I just buy sizing adapters for the new flex hose connection between the tank and trunk line?
Lotta questions. Your thoughts and recommendations are very much appreciated. Thanks in advance! Looking forward to hearing back!
bob
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2015 05:41pm
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The iron pipe is not galvanized, is it? You want black pipe for gas never galvanized. I know any copper to galvanized will lead to corrosion. If it must be done with water pipes, I know they transition with bronze between them. But gas I believe with almost 100% certainty, you never use galvanized pipe. I dont have answers on the rest.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2015 06:21pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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The best approach to answering these questions is to do a bit of gas pipe sizing calculation. Looks like I'm home sick with minor pneumonia so I'll be happy to help with that if you like. If you want to do this, please make a diagram showing all pipes, how they are connected, all the lengths of pipe and their diameters, and the BTUs of all the appliances.
You have relatively little distance involved, but 3/8" pipe has very limited gas carrying capacity so could present problems.
I would use dielectric fittings at all joints of copper to iron. Galvanic action occurs wherever the two touch and any kind of electrical current passes through.
Trunk does not need to extend full length, only as far as the capacity of that diameter pipe is required. It does not need to extend beyond the last T to maintain back pressure. Never heard of this for gas lines. Your existing regulator will be fine. The flex pipe should be the same diameter, or only a little less, than the calculated trunk line between the tank and the first T.
Pretty sure galv pipe is not prohibited for gas but is less desireable because flakes of zinc can clog orifices in appliances.
Put up a drawing with BTUs and I'll run a few calcs for you if you want.
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beachman
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# Posted: 29 Jun 2015 06:53pm
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I have about the same set up but have installed the "manifold" of black pipe with about 7 spokes. For all of the lights and the refrigerator I used 3/8 tubing, the stove I used 1/2, and the hot water heater, 5/8 copper tubing. Some of the lights are on the other side of the house and all works fine. There are some technical specs for tubing and runs to get 11 inches of water, but there are charts somewhere for this. I would suggest keeping the larger tubing closer to the manifold. Remember Eric Clapton's song about propane -"if you don't treat it well, it will blow you to hell, propane"
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bobrok
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# Posted: 30 Jun 2015 08:12am
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Popping back in to say thanks to the 3 of you for the quick replies.
@t_m _t
Would not use galv. Black iron pipe is in my plans.
@bldginsp
I do have a rudimentary drawing but don't have the btu information or the branch t lengths on it. Have all the manuals up at camp (and guess where I'm not right now!). I'll complete my drawing next time up in about a week or so and can post it. Certainly hope your feeling better by then and a big thanks for the generous offer.
@beachman
interesting concept with the manifold and in fact hadnt thought about it for gas piping. Same concept as a pex tubing manifold. I was hoping to be able to reuse my 3/8 off the trunk (thus a long trunk line in my plan) but I need to educate myself on this water column stuff before I commit myself.
lol on the "Clapton" cover! Words to live by!
Until I can get back with my drawing I have one painful question to ask everyone. If my system is working as it now is, and pressure tested ok with all appliances running by the propane company does this conflict at all with the need for larger lines?
OR
Could this be a cause of incomplete combustion on any given appliance and a possible cause for higher CO levels?
Having a problem marrying these concepts together. Waddaya guys think?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 30 Jun 2015 10:31am
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The danger is incomplete combustion when all appliances are operating, along with the possibility of leaking gas from an old hobbled system. The fact that it is operating well as is would seem to tell you it is sized adequately, or close enough to squeak by. If you are going to fix it, might as well put in a slightly oversize trunk to accommodate larger or more appliances in the future.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2015 05:15pm
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I finally made it up and completed my drawing. This is my rudimentary distribution plan, given the appliances I now have.
Looking to determine pipe sizing (trunk and branches), best layout, etc.
Right now I have the trunk running parallel with floor joists with the branches running perpendicular. This is how I took my measurements.
Your feedback is welcome. Thanks.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2015 06:43pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Hi Bobrok- I looked it over and compared to the current California propane gas pipe sizing chart. I'll spare you the details and give you the gist.
You have a total of 100k btus with all your appliances, and 40 feet of pipe (or less) to the furthest appliance. 1/2" steel pipe will handle that many btus with the furthest at 40 feet, so you don't need any 3/4" pipe.
But 1/4" copper tubing will only handle 21k btus at 40 feet. This is more than enough for your lights and the water heater and refrigerator, but not the heater or the stove. So I suggest you run a single 1/2" pipe from the source tank to the heater and stove, and use 1/4" copper for all else, branching off the 1/2".
If you use a single 1/4" copper line to supply and branch off to the two lights, refrigerator and water heater you will be at the limit of the capacity of that branch before it splits off to the separate appliances. Just to be on the safe side I'd use 1/2" all the way to the water heater and use copper branches to supply all appliances except the heater and stove. The 1/4" copper isn't large enough for them.
I bet you'll notice some difference in how the heater and maybe stove operate once you upgrade, they were pretty undersized before.
Hope this makes sense
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bobrok
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# Posted: 11 Jul 2015 09:39pm
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Thanks, bldginsp. I'm gonna be at camp for the week so will have little connectivity to reply, but I'll digest your information and be back online soon.
BTW, I'm currently using 3/8" not 1/4" and hope to reuse this as you've suggested.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2015 12:16am
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Bobrok- my mistake- 3/8 tubing gives you a max of 44k based on 40 foot maximum run. So it looks like if your entire system AFTER the stove were made of 3/8, it would be just over what is 'code compliant'. It would probably work ok with all appliances running, but I'd go with using 1/2" just to the stove and heater just to be on the safe side.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2015 10:37am - Edited by: Steve_S
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Following this thread carefully as I am going to have to plumb in LPG as well, soon.
Here's what I need to plumb in:
1) On-Demand Water Heater (Eccotemp) going between the washroom & kitchen for my Hot Water. (South Wall)
2) Propane cook stove (Wedgewood T-2130 recovered from an RV) Going to Centre Wall. The line has to run from outside through a wall to the inner wall.
3) On-Demand Heater for Radiant Flooring (likely to be a Takagi as recommended) South-East corner.
Locating my tanks has been something I am furtling with as I need them on a level with my truck bed for refill transportation. I plan on 2x 100 Lb tanks.
I'm told that you can go up to 100Lb tanks here without requiring a certified installer & inspection. If I wanted to go with a larger tank(s) then I'd have to get a supplier & the plumbing would have to be done by them along with delivery etc... Trying to avoid having to depend on Supplier X.
I've noticed at local businesses & residences where LPG is used, they have either Iron or Copper pipes but both have some sort of yellow protective coating on them... It's not a paint and is factory applied plasticky rubber material. Something Special ? Needed ?? Can this be bought somewhere ???
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2015 10:45am - Edited by: bldginsp
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I think what you are referring to is the pre-coated gas pipe they sell for installing underground. I'd only use it when burying pipe, it makes it last longer. Not required above ground, not even sure if it's required below ground. Just a good idea if you bury pipe.
I would be very concerned about the connections between iron trunk lines and the copper branches. They are dissimilar metals and if they touch they will corrode. There must be di-electric fittings you can use to avoid the galvanic reaction. I'd definitely use them.
With two on-demand water heaters you will have a pretty high demand on your piping system. Depending on how far away from the appliances the propane tanks are, your required pipe size could go up to 1" or even 1-1/4. Pipe sizing is a function of total btus and length of pipe. Try to keep your tanks as close to the water heaters as possible. If you make a dimensioned drawing with btus and pipe lengths I'd be happy to look at pipe sizes for you. Or, look up chapter 12 of the CPC (California Plumbing Code, 2013). It has a basic explanation of how to do the calcs. It's not rocket science but every system is different according to configuration of piping, btus, etc.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2015 11:20am
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Thanks for the speedy response BldgInsp.
These coated pipes are visible on the walls and building sides here, that's how I noticed them & started wondering about them.
Understood on the Iron to Copper mix being nasty... I'm all too familiar with dissimilar metals interacting.
The farthest branch (water heater) will be 25' from tanks, I was thinking of putting the tanks on a pedestal with roof (tailgate height) 5' from the cabin.
The Eccotemp FVI-12LP is for my year round hot water with the Takagi (to be bought) will be for Radiant Heating using Propylene Glycol. The Takagi will be about 8' from the tanks in the SE corner of the cabin. I would have used water for radiant but the potentials of issues in my climate & usage outweighs that.
This is my Floorplan with the points where everything will be roughly +/- 1'-2'.
FP with LPG device locations
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creeky
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2015 12:16pm
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this is one of the things about taking advice from folks in different areas of the world.
steve_s. in Canada, Ontario. Yellow coated propane lines are flexible lines designed to go above ground from tank to iron feeder lines. and from feeder line to high draw appliance (ie. propane stove).
the underground thing that bldginsp mentions as possible isn't applicable to our area. not at all. in no way remotely considerable. nor even in the oft chance 
Given that yer plannin' to be out there for a year or two more, ask around for a gas fitter. certainly do a bit more research.
plus. you're doing a fair # of appliances. it might be worth, given probable problems and potential for massive propulsion events. to pay a little more and get 'er done right.
i'm all for the 100 lber. but i use iron through walls and floors (it's code for a reason). and I use yellow going out from the iron. see code.
okay. blush. i have yet to exchange my stainless lines running from the tank to the iron lines. i got em cheap from various barbeques. sheesh.
but everything under yer build should be iron. going into/coming out of the iron should be yellow. that is. in ontario. and if you know better (it can happen ) speak.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2015 01:29pm
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Heya Creekster !
Day-Off @ 35C just too much to be in the sun with this 70%+ humidity.
As you know, I have nothing going underground... ain't digging under or cutting the slab...
I have talked to a couple of places about getting a Pro-Install of the lines etc but no luck as yet... The guys are sticky over inspections & certifications... BUT this is a "Hunt Camp" so... At least the local country folk are pretty dialed into "Hunt Camp" and how to go about things.
PS Creeky: Will be picking up Solar Materials on week of the 20th from Rob @ SolaCity Kemptville... Seems a good opportunity to hit a DQ and get loaded up on a Blizzard or two... I will be bringing the Inverter/Charger for Rob to have a close look at as he's just as curious as everyone else and him being an electrical engineer ... well ya know... We should EMail Chat about connecting up.
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creeky
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2015 03:14pm
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bobrok. don't want to hijack your post.
1/2" black iron is cheap and to code (here in ontario) I would run iron trunk lines like yer drawing and then run yer recycled 3/8s off of it. but you'll double check
so. as per your drawing. one main 1/2" iron. reuse the 3/8s. Does anybody have any worries about the appliance connectors? apparently they shouldn't be reused? experiences?
them fellas at lowes/hd are awful nice and usually ex etc. so i wouldn't hesitate to go talk to 'em. we don't have menards up here but hear those fellas are good too.
s. dat build of yerz is going along real good. so same on the black iron.
***there's a quiet boat launch on the sweet reedeau not far from where yer gonna be. let's hook up there. i'll swap some fishes fer a blizzard fer sure. and it's on yer way home. (slower. but way shorter. less gas. esp if you have a 1/2 tonne of lead in the back).
this heat is nothin' to the southern folk. but hoo wee. with the humidity i can hardly see the creek 300 feet away. that installer fella @so.ci. there is a real nice guy. look forward to seeing what he's put together.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2015 04:26pm
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Steve- to really take a hard look at your pipe sizing needs, we need to know the btus of all the appliances, and a picture of the gas pipe system itself- what the trunk looks like, where the Ts and branches are, and lengths of pipe. Happy to work with you on that if you like.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 12 Jul 2015 07:28pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Creeky- it's a bit misleading to generalize that "1/2" black iron pipe is to code" since it will be undersized in certain situations. Certainly not Bobrok's, but maybe Steve's given he has two on demand water heaters a distance from supply.
And yes I haven't seen this coated plastic pipe or whatever you use out there. But regardless of the type of pipe the sizing rules always apply to be sure that all appliances have adequate supply.
And, I have to point out creeky, you were talking about watching out for the advice on this site in the same breath that you are suggesting that 1/2" pipe is to code in any situation.
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creeky
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 12:28pm
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hey bldg. you're right. i had said "you'll double check" as a head's up. and bobrok has a drawing but there's local codes etc. right. for "international code" tho. 1/2" with that diagram would be code as I see it. but you're right. neither of us is a gas installer.
not to quibble. but to set the record straight. i did not say that
Quoting: bldginsp 1/2" pipe is to code in any situation.
and i kinda regret you said that. cause that is not true. I directed my comment to bobrok. and I do not imply that 1/2" is a universal solution.
btw. what is true. we're all living in different places. on different journeys. sometimes we forget that.
youze know yer and mtndon have done a lot to help folks here. just want to acknowledge that. okay. we all get stuff wrong once in awhile. i've given terrible advice. yer advice on table saw use was dangerous dude. but we all have said stuff we might want to modify. that's why we're lucky to have guys like Owen to keep us real. and as a Group sort things out.
what i've learned is I no longer (mostly ) give advice about stuff I don't know anything about. so i carefully only post on stuff I've researched and then built. so solar. check. propane. check. weird and wonderful new ideas. triple check right.
and one thing I've notice about your posts. you've built some stuff now. and its improved some of your suggestions. btw i personally think you're doing a great job of contributing here. and I would like to see mtndon come back more often. he's a smart guy.
if we don't rub against each other a bit. well. it's tough being a guy. we're daft, what?
so when you're wrong. own up. and don't take it badly if you're not 100% correct all the time. heck. I don't remember getting 100% at school more than a few dozen times  .
i'm not perfect. jeez i have deleted posts where I thought one thing and then realized. uh oh.
ya? all peace and happiness. my friend.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 04:08pm
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...keepin' it real on s-c-f 
Just popped into civilization for an hour or two and had to check on my thread.
You guys just keep on doin' what you've been doin'.
It's all good and I, for one, appreciate the advice.
Til I get back to wi-fi land....
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 07:57pm
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After reading the specs of the heaters, The Takagi needs 1/2" the eccotemp seems to be ok with 3/8 but I have a gut feeling to be safe & go 1/2". The stove is a big question... my usage will be low but for 4 burners & the oven... even though it's one of the small 24" insert stoves.
The Eccotemp FVI12-LP Tankless Water Heater
Maximum / Minimum gas rate: 25,000 - 74,500 BTUs
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Takagi T-H3M-P - 120,000 BTU Liquid Propane Indoor Condensing Ultra-Low NOx
Maximum BTUs: 120,000
Minimum BTUs: 19,500
Recommended 1/2" gas line.
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Wedgewood T2130 Insert Stove
I have the only two manuals I can find but neither say the BTU's. except for the parts list which has several. I can't find it online either, so I'll see if there is something on the stove itself.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 09:41pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Note: IF the aforementioned yellow coated flexible pipe is CSST (Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing) it is approved for use in Canada as well as in the USA and the UK. See web page links below. There is a catch though. The installer is supposed to be trained and certified before working with the products. The USA certification is not all that difficult for anyone who can read and comprehend. I have certification. My friend and I just completed piping his new cabin and outbuildings. It's more like electrical wiring than plumbing in some ways. Like the need to install striker plates when passing the tubing through studs and restraining the tubing with clips. It can not be direct buried; underground runs are made through non metallic watertight conduit.
It is much easier to use than iron pipe. It goes around corners every which way with no need to assemble so many threaded elbows, etc. It does use special fittings that are attached to the cut ends of the tubing; cut with a tubing cutter, strip back the yellow jacket and install the multi part fitting with its retainer ring. No real special tools are required, adjustable Crescent wrenches can be used for all the CSST fittings. A pipe wrench will be needed if transitioning from iron pipe to CSST.
This is not the same pipe as has been used for appliance connections for decades.
Gastite has a Canadian page....
... and so does TracPipe
Valencia Pipe seems to be USA only.
Way back at the beginning of this thread there was concern about galvanic issues. Personal opinion is this is not really an issue. We've been transitioning from iron to brass to copper for decades using standard thread together fittings. Water pipe is different as the water acts like the electrolyte in a battery. Gas is basically dry. But local code trumps everything.
When installing this CSST tubing though, electrical bonding should/must be done using the approved clamps. This is mostly for safety if/when lightning strikes. They don't want any arcing.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 10:09pm
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I personally think that CSST should be illegal everywhere and anywhere because it is thin and fragile, you can drive a nail or a staple thru it more easily than a stud, and lightning arcing can burn a hole in the stuff even if the lightning hits the house next door. Yes, the stray current in the house not hit can be enough to burn through it. The bonding required may, or may not, prevent the issue. As more and more of the stuff gets installed, at various levels of attention to the safety instructions, we will see more gas disasters because of the stuff, in my opinion. End of diatribe. If you instal it, READ THE INSTRUCTIONS which, in my experience, most certified installers don't. End of diatribe.
SteveS- the size of pipe required for an appliance is a function of its distance from the source. Many manufacturers tell you to use a certain size, but that's only if close to the source, and doesn't address the pipe size of the trunk which serves multiple appliances. I hope I don't sound like an old ninny here but you have to do the calcs with the correct gas pipe sizing chart, you can't just pick a pipe size and assume it's right. That's what I want all readers to come away with here. Small cabins generally don't have much pipe so you won't run into extreme examples, such as a 200,000 btu on demand water heater 80 feet from the gas meter requiring a 1-1/4" pipe. The same heater could use a 3/4" pipe if less than 20 feet from the meter. I'll look at your chart and see what I can come up with soon.
Thanks for your kind words creeky. Let's all do everything we can to point novices the right direction- particularly with gas, which has the nasty if rare habit of causing entire structures to explode like hit with a large artillery shell. A fascinating sight when you know it's not inhabited. But if it is....
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 10:18pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Here's a link to a police dashcam video of a house in New Jersey that exploded from a gas leak. The neighborhood had been evac'd because they smelled gas, 15 emergency workers were injured but OK, no residents hurt.
http://ktla.com/2015/02/25/caught-on-video-gas-explosion-levels-new-jersey-home/
Natural gas that leaks goes up, and fills the house with gas until it reaches a combustible mixture and hits an ignition source, then the structure explodes from combustion in the rooms. Propane that leaks goes down (heavier than air) and fills the basement or underfloor space, then if it explodes it lifts the whole building off its foundation. Scary thought.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 10:37pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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I Steve- I looked it over quickly and I think you are in good shape except for the first section of line from the tanks to the T that splits off to the radiant heater. That section needs to be 3/4" pipe. All the rest can be 1/2", but it only barely meets th requirements so your system would not be able to accept more appliances later.
You have a total length of pipe of about 30 feet. I'm going to assume that your stove is 80,000 btus, if it's a lot more you need 3/4" to the second water heater. At 30 feet 1/2" pipe will handle 160,000 btus. The stove (if 80,000) and smaller water heater total about that. But add the Tagaki and you are pulling 280,000 btus, way beyond the capacity of 1/2" pipe. 3/4" at 30 feet will pull 336,000 btus, that's why the first section needs to be 3/4".
Hope this makes sense.
Now- what did I do with that lit stick of dynamite?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 10:43pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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No one is claiming that there are no dangers to gas fuels or that installing gas pipe was a job for everyone. That is why my friend and I went to the trouble of getting ourselves certified. I think more people die in auto crashes than in fuel gas explosions. (Similar to PEX there are fewer connections and therefor fewer possibilities for leaks at fittings.) Just my opinion I guess, but I surely liked working with a 250 ft spool of 3/4" that weighed less than 50 lbs. A 150 foot underground run of 1" was actually a joy to install.
FWIW, the inspector went over the install with a fine toothed comb. I think he checked every stud for a striker plate. He never found a single point to nit pick over and said we did an excellent job.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 10:54pm
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I'm sure you did, Don. But in my experience most installers don't. I had one who didn't even know that a bond to an electrode was in the instructions, and another who argued with me forever over the point. Both were certified and had installed a lot of pipe. Black pipe is just safer by its nature. It doesn't require nail plates because it is tougher than they are, you can arc on it all day and you won't get a leak or fire.
CSST is here to stay and I'm one of very few who dislike it. No offense to you or anyone else that wants to use it. I hope they are as careful as you.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 11:04pm
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Damn, now I'm so confused. Please help me.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2015 11:29pm
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Bobrok, for a simple small installation just go with the iron and good pipe dope. Pressure test for leaks. I'd test the iron before advancing to the copper.
Then do the copper and test again. Use a good flare tool.
I got a sidetrack going there over my excitement about CSST.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2015 08:35am
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I agree with MtnDon. CSST is for larger installations, like new houses or large remodels, where you have to put in pipe through a lot of walls, attics, etc. It makes installation much easier.
The one thing I'm still concerned about is the connection of the copper lines to the iron. Do they make di-electric fittings for this so the two metals won't corrode each other?
I used to hate pipe dope. It's the gooiest, messiest gunk on the planet. But there is nothing safer and more secure for gas than an iron joint nicely tightened down with messy pipe dope. Sometimes the old tech is the best tech, IMHO.
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