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JDPugh
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# Posted: 6 May 2015 05:07pm
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I just got off the phone with the a county health department in central North Carolina. The reason I called was to see if they had changed their position on composting toilets as an alternative to septic systems. I hoped to build a small cabin on my property but most of the land there will not meet a perk test. He seemed to have his back up immediately when I asked the question and was prepared for me to throw a fit....which I did not do. His immediate question to me was "what happens to all the sink drains" and I responded I was hoping there was some sort of gray water system that would be acceptable.
Basically I was told that North Carolina Building code does not allow composting toilets and there is "no code approved gray water system" in North Carolina. Then he made a comment that I could build a cabin as long as I did not put in any plumbing. So I said "if I build a cabin, it is either plumbed with a full septic system or it is not plumbed at all there is no middle ground to which he said "that is correct".
Frankly I do not believe that what he told me is totally correct, pretty sure there are composting toilet systems in use and also some gray water systems but I had not done my homework yet so did not argue the point....but he sure seemed ready for me to.
In central North Carolina we have some cold weather, but not much extreme cold weather so my first thought was fine....I will just build it without plumbing. I kind of like the idea of an outdoor shower and portable kitchen anyway.....or I could just buy and RV and park it there when I want to spend time there.
Going to do a little home work and discuss the situation with an engineer friend who understands the North Carolina code really well. Also may talk with a soil scientist I know before I go back for round two.
Anyone here have any experience with similar issues here in North Carolina ??
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 May 2015 06:01pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: JDPugh pretty sure there are composting toilet systems in use and also some gray water systems
Seeing somebody with one or both doesn't really mean much as you can't tell if they pulled a permit or not...
info links
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hattie
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# Posted: 6 May 2015 06:37pm
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We tried to go the composting toilet when we purchased our place to use just as a cabin. They wouldn't allow a grey water system. They said someone might pee in the shower. Geesh!!! 
In hindsight, we are glad we put in the full septic as we are living here full time now.
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 6 May 2015 07:14pm
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Permitted Composting Toilet In North Carolina
http://inside.warren-wilson.edu/~ELC/New_ELC_Website_/compostingtoilet.php
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 6 May 2015 07:23pm
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I am pretty sure that there is also at least one Grocery Store (Food Lion I think) built in Guilford county where no city sewer exits that installed a large wetland that is used to treat its waste water. There was a huge write up about it here in the newspaper a few years ago going on about how wonderful it was.
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 6 May 2015 07:39pm
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I understand the issues of gray water....I did not plan to dump my water, but again like most places there are many who do. Quite a few homes built in the 50's dumped the kitchen gray water into a ditch, I know because I grew up in one. As far as I know it still does, my parents sold it 25 years ago.
The problem is the ground will not pass a perk test except in a few areas and they would require a long distance pump system or a fairly extensive road to be built just to get to it to install the system.
There is an old home there and it has a septic tank in place that was installed when you just dug a hole and plopped it in without inspection or a perk test. I could just remodel and move in using that old system that is polluting the ground for sure. Its to big and I would prefer small.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 May 2015 07:55pm
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Will they let you demolish the old house and build a cabin in its place, using the existing septic?
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 6 May 2015 08:24pm
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Nope, and if my remodel cost is more 50% of the current homes as is value, the septic system must meet current standards including a new perk test. House needs a lot of work so this might be an issue as well.
This is nothing new, been all through this with them before. My parents sold the home I grew up in and moved to this farm right up the road. When they got older (10 years ago) I was concerned about them living in the old house and decided to have them a small modern modular home built.
Hired a soil scientist who looked all over and finally found a spot about 450 feet from the home and road which was a cost issue. I asked the county for a variance to tear down and build new modular home on the old site which was refused, I asked to tear down the house and set a mobile home there using the old septic and would agree in writing that it would be removed the minute my parents passed away or no longer could live there which also was refused. I gave up and bought them a condo in town.
I had hoped over the last 10 years they might have eased up just a bit a bit......guess not. Got a nice place 67 acres that I can visit but thats about it.
The other issue is having a home of any real value sitting there as a second home. Insurance for a vacant home is expensive. The doors to the old home have been kicked in appliances stolen and the place ransacked three times in the last 6 years. It is a wreck inside right now from the last uninvited guest.
LOL...I wonder what the fine is for taking a whizz off the porch, the county could make a fortune.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 7 May 2015 12:56pm - Edited by: Littlecooner
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Try that engineer you say you know and see what he thinks. In the past few years, some states have approved new ideas for treatment. I do believe you will have to install some type of septic tank system for the health department to provide a permit. if you own a 67 acre tract, there must be some area that would be acceptable for an absorption field. Then you could base your cabin location upon that results. I would not consider a 450 length to be cost prohibitive to pump effluent from a septic tank to an absorption field. Understand the cost, but if you have a water source, it could be worth it in the long run to have running water and a regular bath room in a new cabin. Other option, create a hole in the trees in the middle of the 67 acre tract, put up a locked gate at the entrance to your property with many posted no trespassing signs, and go back there and build what you want to without letting anyone know what you are doing. Remember, Don't ask, Don't tell works for building under the radar also. Gray water - put in an absorption field and enjoy the occasional visit to the remote small cabin. Then remember to lock the gate when you go to "camp" and do not tell anyone that you have a structure back in the woods, just a small opening to camp occasionally.
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 8 May 2015 10:06am
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There is a locked gate now.... but they put in a power line right of way on the back side of the property a 8 years ago. It extends for miles crosses the highway in several locations. That appears to be where the intruders may be coming from. Several property owners having same problems since it was put in.
I need to think about this for a while, could do as you suggest and had seriously considered it but wanted to see if there was some recently added wiggle room. Might be better to just sell it and take the money and buy another place.
Already pretty much retired, as an alternative, I may just lease the city house buy a nice RV and hang out there on the farm spring, summer and fall. Then go south for the winter. Maybe I can moon the county office's every year as I go South !!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 8 May 2015 10:57am
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A moral to this story is- you gotta know what's going on with soils and septic before you buy a property.
The real estate agent that sold me my property has a house down in the valley on the edge of the valley meadow. House was built in the 50s and septic installed then, when there were few regulations. Septic is failing, but he can't replace it, because the valley has a high groundwater level and with the newer requirements you can't install a new septic in high ground water. He can pump the tank, but that gets expensive fast. An 'engineered' drain system where they build a hill of fill with pipes in it is ridiculously expensive and sometimes they fail. He's got a problem.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 8 May 2015 06:25pm
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http://ehs.ncpublichealth.com/oswp/docs/rules/SewageLaws-2-19-2015.pdf
This is a link to your rules for NC for onsite sewage disposal.
I have been pondering your dilemma while mowing grass, etc and would offer these comment for your consideration, especially that you now want to think about things. I have spent 1/2 of my working life on one side of the fence and the other half on the opposite side (20 years government employee, 20 years private dealing with those same government employees). You have really worded your topic for this discussion with the best lead in line you could every develop.
To plumb or not to plumb. - You ask the government guy, who can only give you a generic answer of what the rules are, about composting toilets and Gray Water disposal. The general idea of this onsite sewage disposal for a single family residential structure has always been oriented towards a residence which is occupied full time. Our part time use of "Small Cabins" is a departure from the norm and cause all of us some problems when we ask the generic question and get the generic government rules. Now understand, you told him you had gray water to dispose. The unstated here is " I have a source of water". My state words these permit application so you see you are asking government approval/permit for the water supply and what you do with the used water/gray/black after you use it. Like you said- no plumbing means no supply of water, if you want to install plumbing then anyone thinks, ok there must be a source of water if he wants to install plumbing, without knowing any other information.
My first question to you is if you are going to haul in water for your cabin or do you have a supply of water and will it be something where you connect electricity and have running water or the old (100 years ago) well with a hand pump? See my thinking here, just how much water (volume ) will you have access to, not necessary actual usage at this point in the discussion. Because it needs to be disposed of to protect the health of the population of NC. That is the basic reason for this area of the health department. Just like bldginsp spoke of, there are these mound systems of low pressure drip systems that can be designed and constructed anywhere the soil is not suitable. I have actually witnessed small wetlands that have been constructed in area to dispose of effluent in small part time residence. When I am headed is the fact that you have a lot more going for you with 67 acres of land in the eyes of the health department that the guy with a half acre plot of land with neighbors everywhere. If you do sufficient research on the above website, there were some area I saw that mentioned experimental approval to treat waste water. All this is being written to precipitate your thinking and let me advise you that you really need to get professional help of an engineer who is dealing a lot with your specific local health department and let him process an application or open up a channel of communication for an application for onsite sewage disposal. It is a three way triangle, The land owner, the government who enforces the rules and provides the permits and the professional who is a "go between" to design and submit applications and provide experience. Bottom line, no way you can not arrive at a good permit for your cabin, just get the proper help and submit the exact details of what you want to build. That includes footprint size, water supply, plumbing desires, etc. I am not registered in NC, but am sure I could get something approve with the health department if I was registered there. Be doing this a long time. go for it, that Small Cabin will appear on the 67 acres.
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 9 May 2015 12:14am
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I had to take a trip out of town today and I did a little pondering myself. As I said I really just intended on checking to see if by chance they had softened just a tad on composting toilets....the basic answer to that question was NO!!
I did not mention this in my original post because it just did not register, but I think part of the issue may have been related to the phone conversation I heard as I was waiting in line at the inspections department earlier in the day. Not sure what it was about exactly but one of the staff kept emphasizing that "a camper could not be used as a residence". Then she said "yes we have had quite a few people in here wanting information on using a portable shed as a residence...it has to meet code". All of this with an exasperated sound in her voice. About that time a staff member referred me to the Health Department for my question so I missed the rest of that conversation. Later when I called the environmental services and told the lady who answered I needed to speak to someone about septic systems. She said whats your question so I asked her about using composting toilets..LOL...she blurted out "YOU MEAN A PRIVY" before I could say anything else I heard her say "here you need to talk to this guy" and that when I got the sanitarian on the phone. As I said in my post he had his back up immediately I guess because he thought I was going to ask about putting in a privy...LOL..Sound to me like they are getting a lot of calls similar to mine and are getting a little touchy on the subject.
The reason I wanted to stay close to the the old farm house is because there is a drilled well (tested at 60 gallons a minute)an old dug well which also still works and a 500 gallon propane tank. I had planned to use solar power and propane generator backup as well as wood heat and propane backup. I preferred not to do this outlaw style but maybe I need to build an "accessory building" which per the county can be up to 400SF and only needs to be inspected at the framing stage. It can even be built on skids as long as they sit on cmu blocks. After that I could finish out and most likely never hear from them again. If anyone asks I will just say I use the bathroom in the old house. I am going to ponder on that for a while.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 9 May 2015 11:52am
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Too many words to read, but my two cents is, we had a piece of land at the end of a loggin' road back in the '70s.
Went to the county about composting toilets.
Got the emphatic 'NO!'
Researched it a bit.
The US gvmnt overruled the 'NO'.
Might be worth it for ya to check out who overrules in yer neck-o-th-woods.
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deryk
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 12:44am
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I have been looking at land and making some calls. I live in Central NJ, looking for someplace to get away to on the weekends and maybe in 15-20 years or so retire on.
Morgan County WV, seem easy on the building if you are doing it. No final inspection they just told me that you sign off you will follow the 2012 Int code. So if you made a mistake and used the wrong foundation oh well.
but MC, and Delaware County/Sullivan county NY all want a 1000 gallon septic tank even if you use a composting toilet. Makes zero sense that 1 person needs a 1000 gallon tanks. So I am resigning myself to having to do it to not possibly be fined.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 01:13am
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I think you can argue that if you are going to have a full scale septic system that a minimum 1000 gallon tank is necessary or desireable for the long term health of the drainfield. The tank just settles solids so that clear water only goes out of it to the drainfield. If solids go to the drainfield it gets screwed up fast. A 1000 gal tank is the minimum that will effectively settle the solids.
But still the question is why do you have to have a full on septic in a temporary use scenario where a factory made tested composting unit will suffice? I don't see why more jurisdictions don't allow this, probably paranoid of lawsuits if someone gets sick from a poorly maintained unit.
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deryk
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 08:34am
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yeah, and honestly if I have to drop around 5k for a septic tank, I might as well save the $800 for the composting toilet and use a regular one... 1 person of weekend uses will probably never fill it lol.
I asked about smaller and simpler systems, french drains, recycling grey water for farming use and was told "no". So they use a general standard for all situations. I understand if the situation was to change, say in 10 years I wanted to tear down my 400 square foot cabin and build a 4 bedroom 2 bath house that a pair of 50 gallon drums with drain pipes might not do it anylonger but when you apply to build a bigger home at a pre existing homes location they might tell you that small drainfield wasn't designed for the larger home.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 02:24pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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I don't think paranoia about the possibility of failed septic systems is going to go away quickly. Here in California, there are a fair number of higher density rural areas (kind of a contradiction in terms) where a lot of systems are failing and it is causing real health concerns. But even in remote low density areas like where my place is there are enough old failing septic systems that from time to time there is a breakout of gastro intestinal illness. If anything the state authorities are trying to enforce stricter standards on septic installation, to the consternation of local health departments. So I doubt they are going to readily entertain allowing 'questionable' means of septic disposal. We take public health for granted but one trip to Mexico and a good case of Montezumas revenge will make you think.
My septic cost about $7000 (very large system), was a pain in the neck, and delayed my other plans. But I'm glad now that I did it and it's done. Last thing I want to worry about is 'you know what' and women like their bathrooms with running water. I'm still single so I have to think about these things. Point is once it's done you will never have to think about it.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 02:51pm
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 bldginsp, in the USA and Canada too I assume, most of us take for granted that we have safe drinking water and don't have to worry about "poo" making its way into that safe drinking water.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 07:52pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Don- that's the downside to being raised in the best standard of living ever achieved on the planet- few people are aware of hazards. One person told me the electrical code was unnecessary because he had never heard of an electrical fire or an electrocution. I asked him, why do you suppose that is?
With failing septic systems its partly about crud getting in the drinking water, but not entirely. The failed drainfield is a swamp with overflowing sewage, the dog runs through the swamp, the kids pet the dog, the kids go to school and put their hands on the tables, desks and chairs, touch their friends etc.
The instances of gastro intestinal breakouts in the very rural and low density area where I am have not been about contaminated water supply, it's been about hand to hand contact, as happens on cruise ships more often than the cruise companies care to admit.
Don't mess with **** or it will mess with you.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 08:30pm
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Quoting: bldginsp The failed drainfield is a swamp....
And similarly that is why those states that do permit gray water disposal w/o a true septic tank, always have as one of the rules, the gray water must never be released on the surface and never come into contact with people or in direct contact with growing food. There is often a short interval of time before gray can become black.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 08:31pm
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Reading about water and sewage in medieval Europe is an eye opener for those born and raised in modern western civilization.
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 08:45pm - Edited by: JDPugh
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LOL....let me clarify that I am quite fond of clean drinking water, and completely understand why there is a need for regulated septic systems. But, I do not plan to drop the composted poo directly on the land or in an open ditch like something out of the middles ages. I had planned to either build a pit under greenhouse covering or place the material in a black steel barrel and allow it to heat up in full sun for several seasons before placing somewhere on my property away from any potential food production areas or watershed. It would not come in contact with the earth, dogs feet, my feet or your feet for several years...LOL.
As for the gray water it would consist of the water I take a shower in and the water I would use to wash a few dishes and my clothes. If I ran it through a sand filter and and scooped off the top few inches regularly and placed that in the pit or barrel as well I would think that should be sufficient for one small cabin. The county's position here as well in other places I gather is that that gray water is just as deadly as the poo.....hence the requirement for a full septic system to handle it. I think that may be just a touch on the extreme.
Also as I have pointed out in a past post I can sell this land to a neighbor who would just love to place a couple of hundred cows on it, pooping and peeing everywhere. The runoff will most certainly end up in the creek, which feeds the river, which flows smack dab into the huge reservoir recently built to provide "clean drinking water" to the city. I think the city folk might be happier with one old man playing with his poo barrels....but that is just my theory....LOL.
Anyway, I have beat this horse to death and in the end the county will win no doubt. Rather than go through all the hassle, I think I will do one of two things. Sell to the cattle baron or buy myself a nice class "A" RV with a COMPOSTING TOILET and double gray water tanks. I can stay at the farm each spring, summer and fall, then go south for the winter. The gray water I will drop in the existing septic tank when no one is looking. The composted poo I plan to regularly bag and place in the dumpster located at the parking lot of the county environmental health department....payback is a bitch....LOL.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 09:43pm
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Watch out- they have cameras at the dumpster-
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 21 May 2015 11:32pm
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A friend and I were discussing the composting toilet issue and he told me that his father had been having similar discussion with his county health department. Yesterday, he sent me a copy and link to a recently issued clarification by the state regarding composting toilets.....for a brief moment I thought yessssss. But then I read "Item #4" which looks like they close the door on using them in a residence. But we are getting closer at least. Thought I would post because it may help someone else somehow.
http://ehs.ncpublichealth.com/oswp/docs/design/CompostingToilets-4-30-2015-OSWP.pdf
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 22 May 2015 07:01am - Edited by: bldginsp
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I think it's #3 that gets you. They are only allowed where a septic is "impossible or impractical". What is impossible or impractical is a matter of judgment. If a cabin builder just doesn't want to spend the money on an approved septic, the local Health people could say sorry, it isn't impossible or impractical, he just doesn't want to. Or, they could say it is impractical in your situation because the cabin is obviously a remote and limited use situation.
#4 I don't think is a problem because it only applies if someone is trying to use the composting toilet as a replacement when an existing septic is already in place.
In one of the other line items it says that if you do have a composting toilet, you have to have another approved means of disposing of other water. That basically means a grey water system, so it is allowing such a system so long as it is approved.
I think this gives you the green light so long as local health and building are willing. It doesn't prevent them, it leaves it up to their judgment.
I didn't read the whole thing, but I'm pretty surprised by this. It's carefully written to protect the enforcing authorities and give them discretionary power (which is typical) but it does allow composting toilets in residential, in certain situations. I rather doubt we'll ever see that here in California, even though this is supposedly a more 'progressive' state. State Health here is leaning the opposite direction, so it seems.
I think you can wave this in your building department's face and tell them it's impractical for you to put in a septic. Be ready to defend that assertion with a plot plan showing how far you would have to pump to a drain field, the cost of putting in a road for a backhoe, etc. Might work.
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JDPugh
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# Posted: 22 May 2015 09:34am - Edited by: JDPugh
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I have a nice home here and a nice home in Florida. Its not the money...I can easily afford it. I really think it would be interesting and maybe even healthier to live in a simple small home with solar power, wood heat and composting system. After 40 years in bigger and bigger homes where the only time you enter some rooms is to dust the furniture once a week....I just realize how ridiculous it all is.
My great-grandfather lived a slow simple life on top of a small mountain with no running water, no electricity, hand dug well, wood heat, wood cook stove, no car walked everywhere. Ate possum's like chicken. Never saw him sick, never saw him without a smile. When I was a kid that all seemed so backwards, but now in hindsight I realize he was the happiest member of the family until the day he died at 95 years old. I would really just like to get me a little bit of that, that's all. I suspect many of you have reached the same conclusion.
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RazrRebel
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# Posted: 26 May 2015 12:49pm
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I hear you JD. I'm building mine on top of the mountain, with no electric or running water. Mine is not so much as getting back to the old times as preparing for worse times. I see a time when we won't be able to pay electricity bills, where food will cost too much to buy. The world is headed down that path quickly. The thing is our grandparents and great grand parents did it, so can we. It's not a question of this or that, it's about changing your lifestyle to accomodate what you have and what you can afford. Simplicity is cheap!
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deryk
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# Posted: 27 May 2015 01:11am
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I am still waiting on an answer with Wv and grey water systems...will share when i find out more.
I did ask the county guy that do they allow old time out houses...he said if the place is rural not suburban. I asked him what do they do with the water they used to rinse their dishes... he said i guess toss it on the ground. So I did mention my idea for a manufactured grey water system would be a much better idea and he definitely agreed. We went back and forth a few times to understand his rules but if you went with portable jubs no water under pressure they don't complain. I might have to do it while I pay off the personal loan when I find a place. Wait 5 years and then take another loan for a well and septic system... oh well i can rough it for 5 years only being there for a weekend or 2 a month
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 27 May 2015 02:50am
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What about this -- Do get a SMALL, used camper with functioning facilities to park on the property and then build your cabin without plumbing. You can always have one of those countertop water dispensers for cooking, dishes, hand-washing, etc. and a bucket under the sink to catch the water. (Oregon regs say that you can catch greywater from sinks and use it to water your houseplants without a greywater permit.)
Check your state's rules on the issue! You could pour the greywater down the camper's sink for its greywater storage/disposal or treat the water yourself, I suppose, by running it through filters and adding some of those tablets that make stagnant water drinkable before using it for other purposes.
Use your camper for its bathroom. That blackwater is captured in its own containers, which you can then safely and legally take to the appropriate places for disposal.
Lest, Littlecooner insist that I'm on about breaking or skirting the law, it was the code enforcement officer in the county where I'm building who told me my best bet is to buy a used camper to live in on my land while work commences and progresses. This is common.
I'm going to be living in my cabin full-time and it's going to take awhile to complete to my satisfaction and for my needs. Typically, I've been told, the septic system is the last major thing to be installed because you don't want trucks and equipment rolling around and over its components. So, there will be a period of time during which I'll be living inside the cabin but still using the camper's "facilities."
Since you're NOT planning to live in your cabin full-time, I don't see why you can't put a little, used, cheapo camper on the land as a rather fancy and decidedly non-drafty and very sanitary outhouse/bath house! Then build a recreational, non-plumbed cabin. Are there square footage requirements regarding habitable versus non-habitable structures and permitting?
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