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Smawgunner
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2015 12:25pm - Edited by: Smawgunner
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Hey all,
My cabin has electric but no natural or propane gas. I'll only be heating water for a shower and sink. Eccotemp has an ET-32 for $400.00 but looks like it may be overkill?? It also requires 220V and over 40 AMPs. Anyone recommend something a little less involved that'll do the trick? I'll be pulling water from a cistern from an electric pump (not sure of the set up yet) with a rise of only 8 feet or so (to the top of the shower head). Thoughts?? I'm new to all of this.
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Nirky
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2015 01:36pm
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The ET-32 can be used for a home but is more used in light commercial applications. The L5 & higher capacity L7 are both 12 volt. They require at least 22 psi water pressure.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2015 02:41pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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I interpret that to mean the on demand heater would be electric? Electric water heaters demand a lot of power that is why the 220/240 volts That 40 amps would be 80 on 120 VAC. I don't think you will find many smaller, cheaper on demand electric water heaters that are any good.
Check the temperature rise rating and at what flow rate to see if whatever you look at can heat your cold water high enough. If the cabin is subject to freezing there is the question of draining to prevent damage; some are easier than others.
You might be better off with a small under counter electric heater that is well wrapped with extra insulation if this is a part time use cabin.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2015 02:59pm
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Here's a spec sheet on a 120 VAC on demand heater. Note the temperature rise on the 3.5 model.... 40 F rise with a flow of only 0.66 GPM and it needs a flow of 0.4 GPM to start the heater. Why bother?
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Smawgunner
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2015 06:37pm
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I think you're right Don, I may be looking for a small tank now. Thanks for the insight!
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gsreimers
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2015 11:26pm
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Read an article yesterday about tankless water heaters on the internet (so it has to be true) yesterday. If I remember right, it was from consumer reports. It basically said they tested them about 5 years ago and found them wanting. Tested them again recently, with the same results.
Does anyone have one in an off grid situation with results they are happy with. I will be deciding to go tank or tankless this year for my place. I won't have reliable electric for a year of two (it will be solar) and will be bringing in propane in 100lb tanks.
Any of you that have been there have an opinion to share?
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toofewweekends
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2015 01:00am
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We visit our cabin on weekends, maybe once a month and have stayed fairly primitive, although we aspire to have hot water heaters, etc. If you're going to get electric & propane squared away in a year, and you're an occasional user (and have a patient spouse) think about a propane camping stove to heat 2-3 gallons at a time. Use a shower bag or small battery pump & sprayer at the shower, and dishes get done by hand. You're out $50 and can do the full treatment later when you know your solar/battery capacity, etc.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2015 10:20am
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I will be installing our new On Demand water heater (Eccotemp FVI12-LP) this spring as I build the cabin and haven't many concerns. From the lessons learned dept. though, we are also installing a filter before the water heater to eliminate sediments from going through it. If you have hard water you should pre-filter.
The unit we are installing is propane fired with 120v electronic controls (quite low powered). 2 watts idle and 1.07 Amps during operation. It does require a 40+psi water pressure.
We are not on-grid and will only have Solar power so conserving juice is essential and with the propane handy it was a no brainer.
One thing I am doing with creative plumbing, is setting up a drain valve so I can drain it out when I want to... additionally, the farthest that water will have to travel from the unit to either shower or sinks is roughly 4 feet keeping the hot water runs to a minimum...
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skootamattaschmidty
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2015 07:45pm
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Gsreimers, I have had an eccotemp L10 on demand water heater in use at my cabin for approximately 5 years now. I am off grid at my place. I have two one hundred pound propane tanks and I have the water heater connected to them. My water source to feed it is a shurflo water pump from a hundred gallon water tank. I have enough pressure to feed it without issue from this pump. We are very, very happy with it and love being able to take hot showers after a hard days work. The only draw back for us is that since we went with the L10, it is meant for an outside install so when we are at the cabin in the winter, we dont have hot water. The L10 comes with a drain plug I use when it's cold to drain all water during the winter months. It has worked great and we are very happy with it.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2015 12:40am
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The hot water issue is a huge bummer for off-the-grid living year-round. I haven't read great reviews about the Ecco-Temp on-demands for this purpose. I've seen people complain about them breaking down quickly despite all sorts of corrective measures taken.
I am going to be discussing this with a plumbing contractor soon but I *think* what I'm going to do is still go with the Tagaki JR and, to make sure it doesn't guzzle propane by having to heat really cold water, have 2 25-gallon water tanks indoors on my second floor to gravity-feed to my plumbing appliances. I'll have a large outdoor cistern for storage that I can use to fill the tanks when they start running low. And I'll do that in the evening to give the water time to warm up before heavy usage during the day.
It will only be me in the cabin and my water usage will be about 20 gallons per day, I expect, since I plan to use greywater for toilet-flushing. So, this is doable.
It will take diligence and monitoring but it's the best solution I can think of right now. I want a reliable, sturdy hot water heater and the Tagaki JR is great, as long as I can ensure it uses the minimum amount of propane.
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creeky
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2015 10:54am
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I have the eccotemp lv12-lp installed with a shur-flo pump. taking a hot shower when it's -25 outside and the snow is howling by the window is pure delight.
the lv12 installs indoors. so you must keep the room at above freezing. i did have one day when the pipes froze. and the heater was okay. guess i caught it in time.
the temp control isn't great. but you get used to it. and you can add a bit (a tiny bit with my pump) of cold to temper if you've set it too high. Install close to your shower is all I would recommend so you can adjust the gas on the fly.
Marey sells a similar unit that has some nice features. If you're going LPropane that is. Have a look. Doesn't need power outside of two D cell batteries. Venting is more complex. Better heat control.
The Tagaki Jr is the top of the line. Lots of excellent features. Probably the best bet for full timers.
My LV12 is hooked to a 40lb propane tank. I shower twice weekly in the winter (whether I need it or not.  and often twice daily in the summer. Tank seems to last about a year.
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Mtnviewer
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2015 08:09pm
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I live entirely off grid & use a Bosch vented on demand water heater via propane & over it's 10 years of use, I have been happy enough with it. It does what it's supposed to. It wasn't cheap though & installation required a gas fitter's cost. Also 10 years ago I had fewer choices of brands.
Unfortunately it's about 25 feet from my kitchen sink or bathroom shower, so water is wasted while waiting for the hot water to arrive. On demand, isn't really immediate at a faucet as it has to push out a lot of cold or ambient water first. The greater the distance from the heater, the longer the wait for water to arrive & is wasted.
I take very "efficient" showers to save on propane use & for cleaning dishes etc., I try to use more water heated on the woodstove (when it's burning) in the sink, than the using the on demand water heater.
I don't know how efficient it is for just heating water, as I also use my propane (refilled at Costco in 100 lb tanks) for my fridge & occasionally the kitchen stove.
One thing that I don't like about my Bosch heater, is that it is very sensitive to water flow & so my single lever faucet at the kitchen doesn't have much hot cold leeway & when visitors use it, if they don't keep it far right for strictly cold water & so by moving it to the middle even a little, then they fire up the water heater, even if expecting to have "warm" water, or even cold, but still the on demand fires up, wasting propane & electricity (to run the vent fan). Hard for visitors to get used to, but for me, I either turn off the heater's gas & power, (even when guests are here other than for their showers ) just so I don't waste fuels.
I have good gravity feed pressure to turn it on easily, as it does need a minimum water pressure to turn on the igniter & vent fan. I have a silt filter at the intake. Occasionally I've cleaned the igniter & flame assembly as per the manual. I also have hard water & need to flush the copper lines once a year or so using a sump pump & vinegar or other demineralizing solution.
One day I hope to further reduce or even eliminate it's use by adding solar hot water. I'd like to get off the use of propane if possible, as getting propane here gets more difficult with age & delivery is extremely expensive & requires too large a minimum order for delivery.
Overall it's useful. I'm not sure that I'd do it again due to the cost of the unit & the cost of propane vs. just having a small electric water tank run off my diesel generator, which I use for other things & also battery charging. It'd be nice to have solar hot water as well.
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TranquilMan
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 06:02pm
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I'm new to the forum. Just registered and would like to jump in on the water heater discussion.
I started a life project restoring an old, remote, off-the grid, boat in, cabin about 20 years ago. We only use it between mid-May to early October. I've have a gravity feed water system that consists of a 100 gal (375L) tank on a stand 8 feet high that I fill with raw lake water every 4 or 5 days in use. It is located on a slight hill a short distance from the cabin. Underneath is a wonderful outdoor shower. For many years I'd heat water on my propane stove, transfer it to a 20L jug, carry it up the hill, sling it up into a cradle, pour a beer and have wonderful showers. About 4 years ago I got tired of carrying water and got a deal ($50) on a Trailwood on demand propane water heater. This heater was amazing until it stopped working. Then I got another deal ($50) on another one the same so I've had 2 of these in 4 years - not very good! The amazing thing is that a 20 lb tank of propane has lasted 4 years. I'm convinced this is the way to go. Just need to find a better one. For dishwashing, we heat water on the stove in a 10L pot. It is now time to upgrade.
I have just finished building a separate wash house building that has a waterless composting toilet, sink, shower, propane freezer and storage cabinet. This summer I want to install a 12 VDC water pump with a dedicated battery and solar panel and an on-demand propane water heater. It is important that the heater be safe, efficient and reliable.
I will be drawing raw lake water from about 10 feet deep where water temperature averages about 10 to 15 C (50 to 60 F). The lift will be about 23 feet above lake surface. The pumping distance will be about 70 feet. I plan to include a 10 micron filter before the heater to remove particulates. The heater will supply hot water to the kitchen sink, bathroom sink and shower. The old outdoor shower (which I love) will be kept in service but outside of this new system.
My objective is to have a simple, elegant and reliable system that keeps water use to a minimum. We don't have a septic system, only a grey water pit, outhouse and composting toilet.
Right now I'm leaning toward a ShurFlo pump (12 VDC) but have no idea what to get for a heater other than it has to be propane. I built a small 3'x3'x7' closet on the side of the wash house that I am hoping to house the water heater in. That space is accessed directly from the outside and has two vents, one high and one low for air circulation. Heaters like the Eco Temp L5 specify outdoor install only. It is not clear to me if this is only due to the dangers of CO inside a living space, which this is not.
If anyone can weigh in on this project, I will be forever grateful.
TranquilMan
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thetick
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 08:30pm - Edited by: thetick
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My wife and I have been living off-grid at our cabin for 8 months now and loving it. We are 100% solar/generator and propane for the stove. Heat is from a Fisher wood burner. I went with the Ecco-temp L5 for hot water (bathroom sink, shower, and kitchen). I know the ecco-temp is slated for "out doors only" but I do not see the difference between a stove indoors cooking with propane and a small water heater indoors heating water with propane (I expect some comments, but this is how I see it). I have it mounted 4 feet from the floor (and 4 feet from the ceiling) on the outside of the shower wall. The bathroom is not small at 7.5x10.5 feet. We have been very pleased with the heater. Water is from (2) 275 gallon insulated totes stacked and a shur-flo 12v pump rated at 3.5 gpm. The only downside to the heater is having to adjust the temp manually based on the water temp outside coming in, but you get used to it. I ran the water lines through the ceiling so that they are "preheated" from the wood stove from the front of the house back to the bathroom and or the kitchen. And for $150 you cant beat the price.
-Mark G.
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TranquilMan
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 09:11pm
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Thanks for the reply Mark. This is encouraging. I'm guessing the Eco Temp folks are cautious about what they say about indoor installation for obvious reasons. One of the things I did wonder about is the frequency of temperature adjustments. I'm guessing that they don't need to be made often. In my case the lake water temperature at 10 ft is stable on the short term but does rise gradually from spring to summer. My concern would be if an adjustment needs to be made during mid-shower. My wife wouldn't be happy about having to get out during a shower and play with a knob. Thanks for this.
- TranquilMan
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thetick
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2015 09:53pm
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Never had to adjust mid shower and never in the summer. Here in Georgia winter temps can range widely. So a once or twice a week I MAY need to turn the temp or flow rate a little one way or the other before jumping in. Again, not a big deal. The propane tank running out the other night mid shower however was a little sporty....
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TranquilMan
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2015 12:37pm
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Thanks again Mark. I have attached a picture of the outdoor shower. The black jug is how we used to do it. The perfect recipe is to heat 10L on the stove to just about boil, pour in the jug, carry up the hill, add 10L from a tap to the overhead tank, screw on the shower head, sling it up into the cradle. This water mix gives a perfect shower temperature of 43 C (109 F). With a flow rate of 2 L/min you get about 10 minutes so my wife and I can usually have a shower on one batch of water. About 4 years ago I added the Trailwood heater. I'm on my second one. I'm using raw lake water without a pre-filter which may be contributing to the short life of them.
Anyway, the new system should be another step forward but I really do like the outdoor shower.
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creeky
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2015 01:11pm
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hey tick. nothing like finding your own solutions. i have a propane stove and I really like that it gives a kick to the indoor heat when I boil water for my coffee in the morning.
propane exhaust is c02 and water, best case scenario. but my coffe water heats on a 7k btu burner on med-low. a small outdoor heater like I have (mr buddy) is 8k btu. that l5 is 37k btu when it's running.
so. not really comparable to a propane stove unless you have all 4 burners on high.
so if the room has a fair amount of air flow (georgia insulation and house tightness) no big deal. but a 10 minute shower in my highly insulated and tightly sealed washroom (8x16) ... mmm. probably better to stick with the vented version. 
I have trouble with my Lv12. it runs pretty good most of the time. but i often have to reach out and adjust mid-shower in the winter. but then my temps are -20F while your temps are probably 30 or warmer.
i love georgia btw. I would like to come visit in fact. how about tomorrow. it was real cold here (-15F) this a.m.
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thetick
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# Posted: 17 Feb 2015 06:16pm
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You may want to wait until the weekend creeky, when it's 50! Those temps is why I moved from Ohio...
Good point on the btu difference, but I tested it out first...wife likes loooong showers and she didn't pass out soooo....must be good to go
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creeky
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# Posted: 18 Feb 2015 09:04am
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nice. having a test subject is important
it'll take me two days to drive there so the weekend sounds good. (i miss my drive down the 301. i've got a favorite rib place just before st. mary's. and the seafood around there...)
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LastOutlaw
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2015 12:22pm
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Quoting: Nirky The L5 & higher capacity L7 are both 12 volt
The L5 is not 12 volt. It utilizes batteries for ignition but it runs on propane and is not a vented unit.
If you do not have water pressure you may need to run a pump that might require 12 volts to run.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 19 Feb 2015 09:40pm - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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We have the EZ Tankless 101. Same concept as the L5. It uses two D size battries to light the pilot.We built a water tower(have a post about it here) hoping to use the pressure from the tower to run the shower. Alas, there is not quite enough pressure so we are using a gasoline powered pump. Moving to solar panel/pump in a few years.
We have excellent water pressure in our cabin kitchen sink( don't have hot water).
Edited to add, outdoor shower,summer use,off grid,take the EZ Tankless home to a heated basement for storage.
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cscmtp
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2016 01:56pm
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Quoting: creeky shur-flo pump
Could you tell me about the shur-flo pump? I am looking into buying an Eccotemp i12-LP propane tankless indoor water heater. How does the shur-flo pump work with your tankless heater? Where do you install it?
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FishHog
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2016 02:11pm
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installed between your water source and the heater. It is pressure regulated so when a tap is turned on, pump runs. It is the flow of water that causes your water heater to fire.
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Borrego
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2016 10:44am
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We are entirely off-grid and have used the EcoTemp heaters for a while now. I started with the small L5 for an outdoor shower, and it has been nothing less than phenomenal! 8 seasons in the desert, sits there exposed all summer in the blazing sun and I always half expect it to not work in the fall, but it always does....we love our outdoor showers! But then we finished our cabin and got a real bathroom, so i got an L 10 model and it, too, worked great for a couple years before it stopped firing up. After calling the company, I took it apart and found that the water inlet screen was indeed clogged, and after I cleaned it, it works fine again. (Note: Do not hard-plumb these things as they need to be removed for maintenance more than a Noritz it seems...)
In the interest of full disclosure it should be noted that another L 5 I bought for a trailer in the desert never worked, and a larger model i bought for our on-the-grid guest house never worked either. But to be fair I never followed up with customer service about these either...I bought another L 5 and it worked just fine also, so I guess I'm batting 3 out of 5 with these guys.. I would still give them a try though, their customer service is good....
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Pjh
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# Posted: 13 May 2019 05:15pm
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Looking for help ,purchased ecotempl10 plan on using this unit inside but venting outside . I can use a power vent for exhaust my biggest concern is the cold air freezing the water inside the unit. Any suggestions this model does not have antifreeze ?
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benny8
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# Posted: 16 May 2019 08:57am
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Our off grid cabin utilizes a 55 gal water barrel hooked to a 5 gpm 12volt Sea Flo diaphragm pump. Cold water feeds the cold side of kitchen faucet then tees off to another t that feeds the pee rv toilet and the Eco Temp L5 hot water heater. Hot water out is teed to the shower head and back to the kitchen sink. The L5 is located inside but right beside an awning window. Being on demand, it only lights when hot water is used, so I don't really worry about it. Been going great for us the past 2 years. Very reasonable install. Pump runs off my solar which is a 100 watt solar panel that charges up 4 gel batteries.
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