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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 04:39pm
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OK, so the time is approaching when my house is going up for sale and I'm doing this thing!!!! Yay!!!! I've been poring over building codes AND products/fixtures for the cabin so I can be legal but also save wattage and money.
Lighting is a biggy. The codes require things like bathroom lights and such. I found some solar LED lights (that also come with a cellphone charger and lots of cable for installations) with a 10 watt solar panel. In my mind, that would be perfect for the bathroom and other areas where lighting is required.
But will these satisfy building inspectors or do they expect lighting that's more "hardwired?"
Another thing is clearance areas for propane. My propane usage isn't going to be large. I'll be running an on-demand water heater (specifically, the Tagaki Jr.) and an RV cooktop/oven. I priced delivery charges for propane in my cabin's area and, holy Pete, does Amerigas tack on the service charges!
It would be much more cost-effective for me to have 5 30-lb. propane tanks and take them to fill myself, when needed. My generator will be propane, too. There is a feed store about 7 miles from my cabin that is an authorized Amerigas refilling center. But do the codes for propane tank clearance apply to the small tanks? Methinks not, otherwise people wouldn't be able to have barbecues on their decks. ;) I'm wondering what folks' experiences might be with inspectors, though, when you're using propane daily for appliances.
Any advice on propane tank set-up for the range, btw?
I'm trying to nail down my desired cabin design right now for my builder and where to locate the kitchen!
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jaransont3
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 04:59pm - Edited by: jaransont3
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My parents run there range/oven, water heater, and dryer off of a 100 lb propane tank for over 40 years just swapping tanks for a full one when necessary. We had a propane exchange at the local general store a couple of miles from home.
My mom still runs her range off of a single 100 lb cylinder and she gets nearly 12 months out of a one fill.
We use a 100lb tank at our cabin for the cook stove and our on-demand water heater with no issues. Still on the same partial tank that we started with 5 years ago. Of course we are only there for about 4 weeks each year.
Can't help with the inspector part. We don't have those issues in remote northern MN. 
Good luck with your cabin planning and build.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 06:01pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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The electrical inspection is usually done by a different agency. So the building itself, one inspector, sign off on the framing. Then pull the electrical permit. In my state, its done by the state dept of labor and industries. There can be some gotchas if you do it yourself. Some simple things that can be fixed, but can cost you some $$$ and time.
Do you have the building plans? Try http://www.townandcountryplans.com and find a footprint close to what you want, then you can use whiteout to make adjustments. The county will look them over and pencil in red areas they want you to change. Then good to go. I'd advise a full footing/stemwall if you dont want to fight varmints all the time. That can be done well in advance, long before the build starts. But the permit needs to be pulled prior as t hey will want to inspect the forms before concrete to check footer size, rebar etc.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 06:11pm
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Julie-
Each jurisdiction handles these things differently. I suggest you go into the Building Dept and ask questions. So long as you are getting permits for what you are doing, they'll be happy to offer advice and direction.
As far as electrical goes, the codes do not require any electrical in your building at all, but if you install any, it has to be installed to code. It doesn't have to be hard wired, and if it's below 50 volts there are no requirements. Again, ask at the counter.
Good luck
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 06:16pm
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon Lighting is a biggy. The codes require things like bathroom lights and such.
Hardwired with approved fixtures and wire would keep the inspector happy. If you use an LED bulb the power used is very low. If you still didn't want to use the installed, code required, light you are free to use whatever you want to after the system is passed. Yes, that would mean installing something you think you don't want; but it is a simple no fuss no bother way to deal with code.
Some of what the code requires is for safety; GFCI outlets and the like. So don't try to skimp on those.
And FWIW, if the bldg is done to code it is worth more, easier to sell, if and when that comes along.
Inspections differ state by state as to who does what.
As for propane I like the tanks, no matter what size, to be away from the building. Safer that way "just in case" something happens. Like a hose leaks. Especially safer in wildfire country. Run some gas approved underground pipe from the cabin to the tank location.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 06:51pm
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And yes, the clearances around the tank are the same if it is 30 lbs or 1200 gallons. I've never had a large tank pop off but I've seen several little ones let go of a good burst... if too close to uncle fred smoking a cigar by the window, poof goes the cabin whether it's a tiny tank or a major one. The tiny tanks cannot keep up with many appliances when the temps drop. I'd agree with using a 100lb cylinder minimum.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 07:18pm
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Yeah, it's time to have them send me the planning department packet. Circumstances regarding my health have made me decide to move sooner rather than later. (Surgery I was planning to do here in Texas would be better done in Oregon.)
I have spoken with a couple of the planning folks on the phone and they're nice people, willing to talk and offer guidance. The biggy is that I'm in Texas, my builder is in Eugene, and the cabin is going in Klamath County, lol. My builder will handle much of the permitting but I'm trying to make it as easy for him as possible by knowing the rules and factoring those into my needs and requests.
It sounds like, once we have the plans approved, I should hire a local to do the excavation/foundation work. That would make things quicker and easier for my Eugene builder, yeah?
And you can have gas pipes underground for 30-pound canisters? I thought I'd just have pipes through the wall to the canisters outside and rig up some sort of dog house-looking things to protect them from the elements.
It's just me and I couldn't handle 100-pound tanks myself. 30 are good because that's what my generator will take, so having several that I can easily lift and haul in my car and then use for all of my needs would be easiest.
As for electric, if I'm reading the Oregon codes correctly, then if I'm living in the structure, I need lighting for safety reasons. And that's cool. I understand. I just want to use as many free-standing solar products as possible to save juice from my big system for major necessities like the refrigerator, water pump, and controls for the on-demand hot water.
I agree, MtnDon -- I want to do this to code and not be sketchy. I'm trying to balance code and practicality on the small stuff.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 08:34pm
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon I just want to use as many free-standing solar products as possible to save juice from my big system for major necessities like the refrigerator, water pump, and controls for the on-demand hot water.
I think this might turn out to be false economy. with LED lights the additional power is minimal compared to all the other stuff you plan to have and the cost, installation issues, and just plain pain in the butt of putting in a bunch of small solar stuff (that is likely not really cost effective) might be the wrong way to go IMO.
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Pookie129
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 09:56pm
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There are 50lb tanks....which might be a better solution all around. Just a suggestion
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 10:23pm
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Small cylinders can have problems supplying a sufficient volume of propane at cold temperatures. A tank that is less than full exacerbates the problem. I have a reference on this located HERE.
We use 40 pounders and have no issues with the relatively low volume appliances we have. I do not know what the water heater you listed uses. The volume is measured in BTU/hour. Check the rating on the water heater, BTU's IN. Add in any other appliances that might be used at the same time.
Two tanks can be connected in parallel using a manifold. That will double the flow volume available. You'd likely have to have that assembled for you, or DIY.
Re underground pipes. No problem. We have the green coated iron gas piping running from the cabin to the cylinder location. About a 40 foot distance. Pipe size has to be sized for the flow rate required with the distance taken into account.
engineeringtoolbox
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2015 10:34pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Page 17 of the user guide states it can use up to 140,000 BTU/Hr. That is a lot of gas; high volume. From a quick look it appears that even a single 100# cylinder will run into problems supplying that volume at times depending on temperature and percentage of cylinder "fullness".
The typical on ground stationary tank is usually a horizontal tank as this makes for the greatest surface area of the propane in the tank. Note that the common 20 to 100 pound cylinders are vertical tanks by design and can NOT be used horizontally. There are some special ones that are designed for horizontal mounting.b
Two of the 100's in parallel would work. They are heavy but maybe manageable with a 2 wheel hand truck / dolly. Keep in mind they should be transported vertically, not laid down. An on ground tank would be much more convenient.
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Nirky
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 03:03am
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3Fu2gTDMug
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cabingal3
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 06:18am
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Nirky.thats really a cute place.
thanks for the link
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 08:22am
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon It sounds like, once we have the plans approved, I should hire a local to do the excavation/foundation work. That would make things quicker and easier for my Eugene builder, yeah?
I'd consult with the builder closely on that. He may want to do the foundation work himself, so he knows exactly what he has to build with. Bolts in the concrete need to be carefully located to align with framing studs/posts above them (hold down bolts). If you have one person do the foundation and another frame up the building, they just need to be closely coordinated.
Hiring builders in a rural area has a lot to do with transportation time. Where is your Eugene builder going to live while building your cabin in Klamath? For backhoe work, the closer the operator lives the better or he'll have to charge you a lot to transport the backhoe to the site. I was lucky- my operator is close enough he could drive his backhoe to my place from his home.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 10:26am - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Julie, can you get a cement truck into the build site? I cant stress enough how nice this makes using a full footing/stemwall for keeping varmints out. And to use no outside crawlspace, use an in floor. Makes for greater storage too. A small excavator or a Bobcat skidsteer to dig out the footprint. Have the concrete guys set it up, back-fill and then build when ready. Put in a chunk of drain tile in the low area to drain off any water that can accumulate during rain or a plumbing leak ever occur. Run it under the footing on the lowest side. The foundation is the most important part of a build and the hardest part to fix or change later on down the road.
Julie, I pulled my own permit and was the contractor. I hired a professional framer for $40 an hour to get me to a dried in shell. He charged me only when he was working. Took 9 days to get to a dried in s hell before I left. He was semi retired and only good for about 6 hours a day before he hurt to bad. I fed him and provided a nice tent to camp in and had the portable shower etc. It went real well. I was his assistant and learned a lot. I mean a lot. Best building education I got for the money.
I made all the lumber runs in town (you wil want a truck with an 8 foot bed) and even with the full lumber pkg delivered based on the lumber store looking at my plans, we still needed much more. I change or overbuilt in many areas along the way. Sheeted the top of the attic so I would have full storage with a full flat floor. Its fun, especially if you are on site lending a hand etc. I have 14K total into my entire place as it sets now. Thread called "My Project" and I skimped no where.
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creeky
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 11:25am
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Julie, if you're building a solar system just hardwire for AC and be done with it. Much easier to manage. For camping while you build you could use a small solar light like what you indicate ... but you're going to find the light mighty dim.
Your idea for propane isn't bad. I find 100 lbers not to bad. I push them along on their sides through the snow and then just tilt them up. But I'm pretty fit. That's for the propane furnaces I have. But for my water heater (a tagaki jr. I'm so jealous!) I use a 40lber. You're right. It's easier to transport and I fill it once a year (I should probably shower more).
My full sized propane stove uses 20lbers without problem. I cook a lot so keep 2 in rotation.
Sounds like your plan is starting to come together.
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 11:43am - Edited by: OwenChristensen
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It's the price of gas that would lead me to larger tanks. There's a big difference in price for filling a 30 lb tank per gal. vs. having gas delivered to a large tank. Two times the price here in MN for a small tanks. I still use the small tanks, because of the just weekend use, but if I were staying there , I'd sure go for a large tank.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 10:31pm
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Wow, thanks for all of the replies and info, everyone! I have some catching up to do!!!!
First, some disclosure. I have SLE (Systemic Lupus) and Crohn's Disease so my participation in this build is going to be pretty minimal. And I have to design my cabin to make things as easy for me as possible. Not to say I baby myself -- some exercise is good for me, and I do keep fit and my muscles as strong as possible to support my wonky joints and connective tissue. I can move around 30 or 40 lb. propane canisters when necessary, for instance. But heavy work is out.
It's also a reason I chose to move to Southern Oregon. The climate is really good for me. The loooonnnnggggg, oppressive Texas summers are killing me. Literally. My land has some sunny meadow which is perfect for solar but forested, which is perfect for me! I can go outside and avoid the sun under the trees. Prolonged sun exposure aggravates Lupus, which means I've been living like a bat since diagnosis in Texas from April through October. Sux.
TMI, probably, but I think some info is helpful because you all are so kind and generous with great advice and input! Toyota, you're going to have to explain that foundation to me as you would to a child, lol. I'm not familiar with what you're describing and I'd like to communicate this info to my builder!
Here's the thing -- I was planning to use pillow water tanks in the crawl space under the cabin for my shower/sinks/washer. The pillows are about 17 inches tall when full and you can get them in a variety of widths/lengths. I was going to get two smaller ones, about 350 gallons each, and connect them with pipes and valves. (Unless you all advise differently, I am planning to use a Shur-Flo Revolution water pump.) The cabin would protect them from the elements and the fresh air pipes coming from the wood stove would add some heat to the crawl space and help keep my water and pipes from freezing in the winter. (At least, that's my hope!) I will also have insulated skirting panels with an access door around the periphery.
So, is there the possibility for some crawl space with the foundation you're describing?
We haven't set up the timetable for building yet. A lot will depend on inspectors. The build itself won't take long as the lumber and such will be pre-cut and ready to assemble on-site. It's the inspections which could delay things. Plumbing is easy-peasy because I'm keeping everything along one wall and "everything" is 2 sinks and a shower. A local company will be doing the solar and electrical, one that is well-known and liked by the planners.
I'm just planning to live at an extended stay hotel in Klamath Falls for the time being. No sense renting an apartment and settling twice. I can actually "move in" and make do once the shell is up. ;)
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2015 11:48pm
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Julie, bathroom and kitchen, have them be back to back on an interior wall. That interior wall can be 2X6, give you more room for plumbing drians and vents. Being an interior wall is warmer. Usually a kitchen will have 1.5" drains, and a bathroom will be 1.25" and the vent stack can go straight up out the roof. Thicker wall there is easier to to the drain/vent plumbing.
As for water storage tanks, can you use large plastic ones and store it underground? Never freeze there. You can put the pump etc under the crawlspace.
Here is a site. http://www.plastic-mart.com/category/200/underground-water-tanks
They can also do plastic septic tanks too.
http://www.plastic-mart.com/category/5/plastic-septic-tanks
The footing/stemwall foundation is the same as you have on a regular home. Access can be outside, but inside only makes for better security and lessen chances varmints will get in.
I was just thinking of the old amish folks, they would have a barn raising work party. How cool would it be if a bunch of us were able to get away and bang out a cabin shell for a fellow forum member, just for fun and comraderee.
Anyway, just thinking out loud. Julie, my sister has lupis. She is a painter. See her at: http://martigreen.com/Home_Page.html
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2015 03:20am
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Oh, your sister's work is beautiful, Toyota! I love the watercolor landscapes, especially the winter paintings. Did she go to Ireland to paint that particular collection?
I'm a writer. I was a journalist and taught English Lit. before I got sick. I have a novel in the very early stages and volumes of short stories and poetry in the works (pun intended). I'm looking forward to rural cabin life to work on my projects and publish. My writer's soul needs natural beauty. West Texas is pretty ... dang ugly.. I was raised in Pennsylvania with lots of forests, rivers, camping, etc.
From what I know of the mountain, I'm looking at rock below the surface. I'm not sure what depth. Would rocky soil degrade the water tanks if I were to bury them?
Great idea on the kitchen/bathroom!
I am hoping to get a variance on a full septic system in favor of an alternative system. Who knows, the soil might even be too sandy for a traditional septic tank and I'd need one of the alternatives, anyway. I need to meet with the On Site people and email the state. We'll see what happens. I'll do what I need to do. I spoke with the On Site clerk at the county and she said I'll clearly need a very small system and we'll see what the tests show.
This is such an odyssey, haha. I do enjoy putting challenging puzzles together, though.
Do you ever check out the Habitat for Humanity ReStores for treasures? I saw that there's one in Medford, OR. It can be a good source for doors and windows, sometimes plumbing supplies. It's worth a look!
Thanks for all of the help! I really appreciate it!
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2015 04:11am
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MtnDon,
I was going to have a gas supply dedicated just to the hot water heater. I'm not overly concerned about gas usage because we're talking about a hot shower every day for one person. According to the manual it uses a maximum of .6 gallons per minute for continuous flame and that's based on the factory setting of raising the water temp to 113 degrees, I believe, maybe a bit higher. So, a 10 minute shower would use about 6 gallons of propane per day, maximum, if I took showers that long.
The BTU range runs from 19,500-140,000. From what I can see, lowering the factory pre-set temperature will ensure it uses less gas, as does ensuring that the temperature of the water entering the unit isn't really cold.
I read a review that says it's great to use with a passive solar water tank. That makes a lot of sense and I need to look into that. Or anything else that keeps my water supply from getting super-cold in the winter. It won't be a problem in the summer.
Tagaki makes a good product and Amazon has this one discounted nicely. It has a really good warranty. I like that it has a remote unit that mounts in the bathroom so you can make adjustments to the water temp easily, if need be.
I'm really interested in your suggestion of connecting two tanks. Do you think that would work with 50-pound canisters (or 60 lb., if they make those)? I just know I wouldn't be able to handle 100 lb. tanks myself, even with a dolly.
Owen Christianson, Amerigas is the only company that serves the area to which I'm going. They're expensive because they add about $20 in fees to every delivery. If I was running a whole bunch of things on propane and would save a bunch of money buying in bulk (and paying those fees), it would make sense. But I'm only using it for on-demand hot water and my cookstove, which sips propane. My generator will be propane but it runs off the canisters which are fastened to it.
I think it's best to start by filling my own canisters and see how much propane I'm actually using, then do a cost comparison. Fuel prices are high in the Pacific Northwest, and it will be interesting to see what gas prices do this year.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2015 05:26pm
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon m really interested in your suggestion of connecting two tanks. Do you think that would work with 50-pound canisters (or 60 lb., if they make those)?
a list of sizes and weights of the cylinders... http://www.propanetankstore.com/propane-tank-sizes-and-dimensions/ Take the tare weight (empty cylinder) and add the weight of the propane to see the total that would have to be handled.
You can probably make the Tagaki work with portable tanks but may have to juggle the heater settings in cold weather in order to get whatever flow it wants. Some guesswork involved with that. Any preheating of the supply water is good; saves money on propane.
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